The Forge Reference Project

 

Topic: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners
Started by: leegarv
Started on: 7/30/2005
Board: Publishing


On 7/30/2005 at 8:19pm, leegarv wrote:
Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

Greetings and salutations!

Reality Cheque, the rights-holder of Tales From The Floating Vagabond, is planning on publishing a second edition of the game in time for the 15th anniversary! The plan is to produce a high-quality hardback rulebook (longer, funnier, better) and many supplements and adventures. But Reality Cheque can't do it on its own.

To that end, I am throwing my hat into the ring, and asking if there is anyone out there mentally unstable enough that they would like to help this game back into print. Obviously, the more people willing and able to help, the easier it will be for everybody.

I know there are people out there who believe in the power of the Vagabond, so this is your chance to be in on the relaunch of the freakiest RPG ever produced.

If you are interested and you are going to GenCon, email me and we can try to arrange a talk. If you won't be at GenCon, but are interested, drop a line anyway.

leegarv1@yahoo.com

I hope to hear from a few lunatics soon,

Lee Garvin

Message 16187#172425

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by leegarv
...in which leegarv participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 7/30/2005




On 7/30/2005 at 9:03pm, Eero Tuovinen wrote:
Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

Interestingly enough, you never specify what kind of help you're looking for, exactly.

Also, many people reading this board - myself included - will be primarily interested in pertinent IP ownership and publication arrangements. To wit: is it indie, and in what manner?

Message 16187#172428

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Eero Tuovinen
...in which Eero Tuovinen participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 7/30/2005




On 7/30/2005 at 11:14pm, Vaxalon wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

I think he's looking for investors.

Looking for investors from among indie RPG developers is carrying coal to Newcastle, if you ask me...

Message 16187#172437

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Vaxalon
...in which Vaxalon participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 7/30/2005




On 7/31/2005 at 4:39am, leegarv wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

Well, yes, I am looking for investors, and I know that most Indie publishers don't have the resources to do that, but I am seeking all the help possible, lessening the burden for each individual partner.  Other resources are wellcome too, of course, since this is Reality Cheque's first new publication since 1997.

As for the "Indie-ness" of Floating Vagabond, I'll leave that up to your judgement. Yes it was originally published by a somewhat big company (that has since been swallowed by a larger company that was swallowed by a behomoth), but the design was mine, and I am taking every step I can to see that it never gets out of my control again. (You're always a bit more protective of your first-born.)

Message 16187#172463

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by leegarv
...in which leegarv participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 7/31/2005




On 8/1/2005 at 1:23am, Vaxalon wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

If you own it now, and you originally wrote it, then it's an indie game.

Message 16187#172518

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Vaxalon
...in which Vaxalon participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/1/2005




On 8/1/2005 at 1:00pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

Hello,

I suggest you do a little more reading and reflecting at this site. You are kind of on a little teeter-totter right now - one way means you'll get a whole lot of help and the other way means this thread gets closed.

Here are some points to consider, fairly seriously.

1. Most of the people who publish using the advice/aid from this site end up making substantial money. We actually could contribute a fair amount to you if anyone desires. If your image of "indie" is those guys roaming around with their three-ring notebooks and crappy photocopies of the art they produced during geometry class, then you might want to revise that.

2. But I can say with some confidence that none of us, profitable as we are, are likely to invest a dime in developing your game. Why? Because we know about how to publish in ways which cost far less, result in better-looking product, and sell far better than the ways with which you're probably familiar. I know the history of Tales From the Floating Vagabond, as I know the histories of most published games. Believe me, this site is a whole 'nother universe from what "publish" means in the context of, say, GAMA.

I and most of the folks here are far more committed to helping you discover these ways to publish. Instead of, for instance, getting out of our speedy cars to help you push along yours with square wheels, we can show you how to put round wheels on.

2. "Independent" has a specific meaning here, which Fred (Vaxalon) has accurately summarized. You wrote the game? You exert executive control over its production and over the money it makes? Then it is an independent game by our standards and is eligible for the help I'm talking about.

So! If you want that help, and if you can basically give up on that whole "investors" idea (which is nothing but a quagmire of debt and control-issues), and if you'd like to know how you can get a better-looking book, a better-playing game (if that's what you want; after all, TFV is no slouch as it stands), and a better-profiting business endeavor out of the whole thing, then we're here for it.

Best,
Ron

Message 16187#172546

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Ron Edwards
...in which Ron Edwards participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/1/2005




On 8/1/2005 at 1:19pm, Eero Tuovinen wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

Ron got me interested in the historical question: what game is this, exactly? Lee: would you be interested in supplementing the thread with a compact history of the game? What it is, how it's been published previously, what's the market segment, the current situation and what you're planning for the future? I understand that the game has some cult popularity in the US, but apparently it never made any kind of impact in Finland, because I don't even know the decade. Sounds like a fantasy game, though.

Other than that, I can just affirm what Ron said. Before even thinking about things like investors, prove to us that you've already thought out the reasoning for needing them. Chances are that there's much better ways of republishing your game than the one you seem to be thinking about. You'll get much more from this place if you engage in a dialogue over your plans instead of just looking for connections to execute those plans.

Message 16187#172550

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Eero Tuovinen
...in which Eero Tuovinen participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/1/2005




On 8/1/2005 at 5:56pm, leegarv wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

Well, Gentlemen, my plans are, for one thing, to see what the feasability of my intentions are. Those intentions include, yes, a better-looking, better-selling product, Mr. Edwards (TF2V was published 14 years ago in a completely different market and industry than exists today).

I game system itself has been redesigned and tested over the last several years, and is now (I beleive) much more playable and sustainable for a long campaign. As for the production values, this is why I need investors. The property itself is literaly the only thing I own in the world, but I will not let the Floating Vagabond be published in a slap-dash manner. I intend the core rulebook to be a standard-size hardcover, and I have several concepts for supplemental material that I wish to explore. I plan on actually budgeting for promotions (something that was never done to my satisfaction for the previous edition), and liscensing the concepts, characters, and images of the game for everything from miniatures to action figures to animated series. But to do all this, I need the help of people who have resources that I don't and who have a better understanding of business than I do.

I hope this clarifies my position.

Advice is absolutely welcome; I will consider it all, but be aware that I have been told I am very stubborn.

Message 16187#172589

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by leegarv
...in which leegarv participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/1/2005




On 8/1/2005 at 6:05pm, leegarv wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

Eero wrote:
Ron got me interested in the historical question: what game is this, exactly? Lee: would you be interested in supplementing the thread with a compact history of the game? What it is, how it's been published previously, what's the market segment, the current situation and what you're planning for the future? I understand that the game has some cult popularity in the US, but apparently it never made any kind of impact in Finland, because I don't even know the decade. Sounds like a fantasy game, though.


Tales From The Floating Vagabond is a Comedy Science-Fiction Fantasy game, centered around the activities of characters who frequent a bar called "The Floating Vagabond," which is built into an asteroid, situated at the center of the universe (well, a universe, anyway). The door of the bar has a device on it that randomly plucks patrons from other bars in other dimensions, all throughout time and space, dropping them into the rowdiest drinking establishment in the multiverse. The game itself stresses comedy over realism (in fact, the laws of nature themselves can be superseded by the rules of a sufficiently powerful trade union). Aside from a little bit of universe background, adventures are "anything goes."

Does that help?

Message 16187#172590

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by leegarv
...in which leegarv participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/1/2005




On 8/1/2005 at 6:12pm, Miskatonic wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

For Eero's edification:

Tales From The Floating Vagabond was a sci-fi spoof humor RPG published by Avalon Hill. The Floating Vagabond being a space bar, where, you know, protagonists would meet up and go off on adventures. Sort of like Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy or Spaceballs, but with its own distinct flavor.

System-wise, it was sort of like a pervy high points-of-contact version of Toon, e.g. price lists of zany cocktails, very amusing weapons tables. The handling time seemed befitting to an Avalon Hill publication, and curiously high for a humor game. Back when I played it, the GM mostly drifted the game to freeform.

I'd be tickled pink if a sleeker, funnier, indie Vagabond was published. I don't know if I'd be too interested in a big-money, high gloss, $40 re-release of another old comedy game. (Uh, not pointing fingers there. Nope.)

(Cross-posted with leegarv.)

Message 16187#172591

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Miskatonic
...in which Miskatonic participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/1/2005




On 8/1/2005 at 6:14pm, Andrew Morris wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

So, I'm still unclear -- you are looking for what, exactly, from the Forge membership? You want people to front money that you'll pay back? You want people to buy shares of company? You want people to volunteer their talents and skills? What?

Message 16187#172592

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Andrew Morris
...in which Andrew Morris participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/1/2005




On 8/1/2005 at 7:09pm, leegarv wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

Andrew wrote:
So, I'm still unclear -- you are looking for what, exactly, from the Forge membership? You want people to front money that you'll pay back? You want people to buy shares of company? You want people to volunteer their talents and skills? What?


Well, for starters, lets have a discussion about all of those possibilities. I know that opinions differ on which model is best, but the folks here will have a much better grasp of them than I currently do (but I am learning). What are the pros and cons of each prospect?

This is why I'm giving myself a full year's lead-time.

Message 16187#172597

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by leegarv
...in which leegarv participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/1/2005




On 8/1/2005 at 7:45pm, Andrew Morris wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

I've found that the Forge is most useful when you're asking specific, focused questions or examining specific, focused issues. General, wide-open discussion usually spirals off in a few different directions at once, and people (myself included) lose interest.

Message 16187#172604

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Andrew Morris
...in which Andrew Morris participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/1/2005




On 8/1/2005 at 8:01pm, lumpley wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

People front money that you'll pay back
Pro: Easy money for you, other than finding the people.
Con: They own your game's ass.

People buy shares of company
Pro: Easy money for you, other than finding the people.
Con: They own your game's ass.

People volunteer their talents and skills
Pro: Easy talents and skills for you, other than finding the people.
Con: a) Unreliable and b) exploitative.

If those were the only ways to make money publishing RPGs, I wouldn't publish.

Lee, the person you need to talk to and listen to is Ron. That means taking on this:

Ron wrote: So! If you want that help, and if you can basically give up on that whole "investors" idea (which is nothing but a quagmire of debt and control-issues), and if you'd like to know how you can get a better-looking book, a better-playing game (if that's what you want; after all, TFV is no slouch as it stands), and a better-profiting business endeavor out of the whole thing, then we're here for it.


-Vincent

Message 16187#172608

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by lumpley
...in which lumpley participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/1/2005




On 8/1/2005 at 9:35pm, Paul Czege wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

Hey Lee,

As for the production values, this is why I need investors. The property itself is literaly the only thing I own in the world, but I will not let the Floating Vagabond be published in a slap-dash manner. I intend the core rulebook to be a standard-size hardcover, and I have several concepts for supplemental material that I wish to explore. I plan on actually budgeting for promotions (something that was never done to my satisfaction for the previous edition), and liscensing the concepts, characters, and images of the game for everything from miniatures to action figures to animated series.

That's an ambitious vision. It's impressive when you take a moment to envision the size of the endeavor, and the dollars changing hands. But it's the cart before the horse if you're looking to attract investors. As a prospective investor, my first question to you would be:

When you have to make a choice between the vision you've described above, and maximizing profitability, what will you choose?

Answer that question wrong, and I walk away from the table. (And don't think it's an unfair or artificial choice, that you won't have to make the profit vs. vision decision, again and again, as a publisher, on a regular basis.) You may be able to attract dollars from the naive with a lofty and impressive vision. You won't from anyone with a head for business. They want to know that you're focused on profit, not art, and not prestige. (Most soliciting in the roleplaying industry for "investors" is actually soliciting for "patrons".)

Another thing to know about business: there's no recipe for success. You can't just copy the licensing strategy of a successful business, for instance. There's no assuredness it'll work for you. (Heck, you can't even know if it's profitable for the company you're copying from.) Anyone who says you can do a business plan and have confidence in your profitability two years out is full of shit. So, as a prospective investor (particularly in the roleplaying industry) there's damn little you can tell me about your business plan that'll convince me you're a good investment. What you need to do is convince me you're ruthlessly focused on profit. I'm totally making a decision about you, and how you think, not about your plan.

The successful indie publishers at The Forge, pretty much across the board, aren't interested in the external validation of dollars changing hands and casting a big shadow over the industry. And they're also not interested in constant reassurances to investors that they haven't lost sight of their ruthless focus on profit. They're interested in designing and playing games. The validation is being part of a community, and contributing to the enjoyments of others. You can absolutely make a profit doing it. It's actually not difficult at all. But the profit comes from making decisions about how and when you spend money that don't necessarily accord with the conventional glossy hardback wisdom, or with the hopes and dreams of investors, or the egos of patrons. If you can be profitable without dealing with that crap, why ever would you choose to deal with it? (And besides, if it's your own money you're spending the success is ever so much sweeter.) Ours is a maturing hobby; and it's absolutely a fact that adults readily pay money for entertainment. The indie guy don't focus on gloss or collectibility. Those are fleetingly hollow and materialistic pleasures. Few healthy adults fail to close their wallets to them after a time. Focus instead on the enduring satisfaction of fun and community and artistry.

Paul

Message 16187#172635

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Paul Czege
...in which Paul Czege participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/1/2005




On 8/1/2005 at 10:37pm, Eero Tuovinen wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

So, the next coupla things, it would seem to me, should be
1) Lee showing us his game, so we can start thinking what kind of help he needs and what kind of product it'll make. For all I know, he should be making the game a monthly electronic journal paid by subscription, or something. We'll need to know more to analyze the potential customer base and such.
2) Some more talk about the hard business facts of publishing, and what those facts mean for rpgs. Thread references for Lee, too. I'm no good with them myself, but I know some of you reading this can point to a bunch of very interesting threads about publishing methods and strategy, not to speak of market segmenting.
3) Lee telling us more about how he values cultural influence, fame, money, fun and all those benefits you get from publishing. This is particularly important, because the publishing strategy should differ radically based on what he's after, and in what order.
The methods for carrying on the discussion, Lee, are of course all in your hands. They all should be done, though, before anybody can make an intelligent decision about whether they want to invest, not to speak of exploring other methods of publication.

To start on the hard business facts, here's me blowing some air: I operate a small rpg business in a country of five million residents. That's less than the population of Chicago, I hear. Obviously, I have to be very conservative and intelligent in making any investments, because there is no big pool of potential customers I could gamble on with shotgun advertising and generic publicity mongering in hopes of creating a fad. All sales are earned through carefully thought-out means of reaching the fringe-of-the-fringe I'm selling to. My marketing budget: only what I pay myself. My warehousing expenses: none. My printing expenses: the last project I printed covered it's printing expenses within a day of coming out of the printer, thanks to an arts grant and quick sales. The bottom line: I'm selling my expertise as a roleplayer, not a dream wrapped between glossy hard-covers. Our customers pay for me picking good games for them, not for marketing.

The point: I operate entirely outside the tier model of publishing and retail, and do it pretty successfully. From what I hear (everybody has to speak for themselves), I'm not too convinced that the big companies can hold a candle to my profit margins. Of course, the business is small, but then, I'm not doing it as a full job, but rather a hobby that pays for itself and more. And the most important thing: I wouldn't in all hell do any of the following, assuming I had a '90s geek gaming property waiting for republishing:
- pay a cent for advertising in paper media.
- pay a cent for advertising in the Internet.
- tying more than $500 bucks in printing.
- launching the game without ample preparation in terms of customer interaction and society building.
- launching a big hardcover without first selling it as a PDF to generate interest.
So we're talking very different paradigms here. So different, in fact, that based on the little that Lee's told us about his plans, I'm not even considering seriously any monetary investment in his project. When that kind of plans are uncertain at best for companies like WotC or WW, it's very nearly just throwing money away for anybody else. Unless Lee has some solid plan for bucking the system and doing things differently?

Now, the important thing for us to know is if Lee is interested in what we're peddling; as far as I know, the indie ideas about publishing and running a business can beat the game store distribution model in terms of profitability, efficiency and assumed risk. However, for publicity and licencing deals and ego there is lot of good to say about traditional ideas. So we need to know what Lee's interested in: getting the game in the shops, making a profit, or becoming famous?

Message 16187#172644

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Eero Tuovinen
...in which Eero Tuovinen participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/1/2005




On 8/1/2005 at 11:32pm, guildofblades wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

>>The successful indie publishers at The Forge, pretty much across the board, aren't interested in the external validation of dollars changing hands and casting a big shadow over the industry.<<

Well, speak for yourself. The validatin of dollars is nice and the more of them the marrier. I'm also interested is slowly building that mega gaming corp that casts a big shadow, but I'm not all that concerned on the "where" that shadow is cast.

>> And they're also not interested in constant reassurances to investors that they haven't lost sight of their ruthless focus on profit.<<

Thats true. Truth be told, most of operate businesses far to small to be beholden to the wants and opinions of investors; especially ones that aren't as intimately involved with the company as its figure heads.

Lee,

The vision you seem to have for the Tales of the Floating Vagabond would very much seem to mirror your understanding of the industry as it existed back when the game was first published. It is nice that you want to accomplish those things, but the market has changed dramatically since that time. If you want to draw in investors, in form of fiscal or time/experience, you will first need to show enough of an understanding of the current market so that you can lay a reasonably detailed business plan in front of those potential investors. Such things as your plan for distribution, production format, price points, marketing plans, etc. Your game was a bit of a kult hit back in its day and that popularity seemed to stretch at least into the mid 90's to some degree. But the RPG market is aging and much of your past market can now be fairly narrowly defined as the "old school" role players, most 30+, and those still interested in indie games (aka, Not D20). In other words, the support you hope to draw from the game's past print life will be coming from a very small and niche part of the current consumer base. You mentioned being disappointed by the ad budget Avalon Hill had used for the previous incarnation. Knowing, ball park, what Avalon Hill used to spend in advertising both to consumers and to the 3 tier system, I can fairly safely say that if you pump that much money into the relaunch of this game, you might achieve reasonable sales figures (500-3000K unit), but won't gross enough to cover those kinds of advertising expenses.

Investors are going to want to earn their investment back at the least and ideally get a return on their investment. Your business plan should show them how you hope to make that happen.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com

Message 16187#172648

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by guildofblades
...in which guildofblades participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/1/2005




On 8/3/2005 at 12:43am, leegarv wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

Well, there certainly is a lot of advice out here.  Of course, the larger portion of sounds very similar to "stay at home and hide."

I appreciate that I have little sense for business; I am an idea man, and not so adept with practicallities. This is why I am hoping to get a manager for Reality Cheque; one who does know business.

Although, in my defense, I think I do have some knowledge of the industry as it stands today. I spent six years working in one of the biggest retail game stores on the east coast, two of that as buyer. (No, I wasn't fired, I was laid off, because the store was struggling after all our best customers were sent to fight in Iraq).

I have taken steps to renew interest in TF2V - small steps. The original edition is, for instance, available on DriveThruRPG.com. Unfortunately, I have no other web presence currently, and no other way to promote it short of talking about it on message boards.

I am aware that the game as it existed in 1991 would not do very well in today's market. I am therefore changing those elements that I think can help it, without changing the game's basic character.

The endless charts and tables of the Avalon Hill edition are gone, replaced by a single "sliding die" table for everything you may need a die for. The humor is also being doctored. The game was very much a parody game about gaming in the original edition. This was not the intent, but rather what happens when an editor kept asking me to make references to this-or-that in the game (someof them they put into the final product after I was finished).  It was, and will be again, supposed to be a parody of EVERYTHING. Any given adventure should be able to skewer any aspect of life, politics, pop culture, or even science and history, while still remaining a fun game to play, with a solid adventurous feel to it that isn't entirely overshadowed or trivialized by the comedy.

Jumping topics again, what I have seen sell in stores is good-looking, well-edited games with solid and unique premises, good word-of-mouth, and good distribution. I see plenty of games with only two or three of these do fairly well, but all things being equal, I want it all. A game with a solid and unique premise and excellent word of mouth still sits on the shelf when put next to a better-looking product with good editing, and better distribution puts it front of more eyes.

So how does a man of extremely limited means secure these things for his game? I flatter myself to think that I have the premise, but what about the rest?

Message 16187#172834

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by leegarv
...in which leegarv participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/3/2005




On 8/3/2005 at 1:08am, Albert of Feh wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

Well, there certainly is a lot of advice out here.  Of course, the larger portion of sounds very similar to "stay at home and hide."


Not quite. What you seem to be asking is, "How do I play the mainstream publishing game without fronting much cash?" The answer you're getting back is, "Cash or no cash, don't play the mainstream publishing game." It's really the only answer you're probably going to get around here.

The publishing strategy generally espoused here largely ignores game stores and mainstream distribution channels in favor of online pdf sales and direct book orders. Ron's essayThe Nuked Apple Cart outlines the basics in pretty stark terms.

For more detail on what you need to put into this strategy, and what you get out of it, someone else will have to step up to bat. I haven't yet gone through the whole process, but there are many here who have.

Forge Reference Links:

Message 16187#172838

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Albert of Feh
...in which Albert of Feh participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/3/2005




On 8/3/2005 at 1:18am, greyorm wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

leegarv wrote: Of course, the larger portion of sounds very similar to "stay at home and hide."


Heya Lee,

With all due respect, man, no one in this forum has said anything remotely similar to "stay at home and hide." Consider that you are viewing the advice in that manner because you are still looking at this from a 90's publishing perspective: "What do you mean, investors and patrons are bad? How else would you publish! Oh, you must mean I shouldn't publish at all because I can't retain control and have investors."

Now, I don't know if that is what you're thinking, but I suspect it. So, let me try to restate all the advice thus far: what people may not be doing a very good job of explaining clearly is that their point is you can publish an amazing game with good market penetration and long-term sales stability with no investors and a shoestring budget. What?! Impossible! Blasphemous! Ridiculous! You can't do that!..can you?

Basically, that is what this site is all about: publishing your game and making it more than what people expect from an "indie" publisher (ie: "some photocopied, stapled-together booklets"). There are ways to do it. You just need to express interest in going that route and let us know that you're interested. That, I believe, is what people are waiting for. You to say. "Alright, HOW do I do it?"

Take a look at Ron's Sorcerer and how he built and sold that game from the bottom up (check the section under Encouragement), by himself. Take a look at Luke Crane's Burning Wheel and how he started that off (Luke will have to interject here, as I can't recall the details, but I recall it being a kitchen-table operation). I know there are plenty of other examples here, as well.

Message 16187#172841

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by greyorm
...in which greyorm participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/3/2005




On 8/3/2005 at 1:26am, leegarv wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

greyorm wrote:
leegarv wrote: Of course, the larger portion of sounds very similar to "stay at home and hide."

With all due respect, man, no one in this forum has said anything remotely similar to "stay at home and hide." Consider that you are viewing the advice in that manner because you are still looking at this from a 90's publishing perspective: "What do you mean, investors and patrons are bad? How else would you publish! Oh, you must mean I shouldn't publish at all because I can't retain control and have investors."

Whoops! I forgot to activate the smiley there, as that IS suposed to be a trifle tongue-in-cheek. I've just been told a lot of discouraging things lately and was trying to lighten the room.

That, I believe, is what people are waiting for. You to say. "Alright, HOW do I do it?"

I know a cue when I see one...

Alright, HOW do I do it?

Message 16187#172843

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by leegarv
...in which leegarv participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/3/2005




On 8/3/2005 at 1:28am, leegarv wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

Okay, I didn't know the quote function would do that, so...

Alright, HOW do I do it?

Message 16187#172845

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by leegarv
...in which leegarv participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/3/2005




On 8/3/2005 at 1:29am, Paul Czege wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

Lee,

I just want to compliment how you've handled this thread. You've posted at a thoughtful and human rate of speed. It has kept the conversation real in the face of some considerable passion (mine included).

Thanks for that.

Paul

Message 16187#172846

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Paul Czege
...in which Paul Czege participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/3/2005




On 8/3/2005 at 2:06am, leegarv wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

Thanks Paul,

I try not to let the lack of an actual person in front of me dull my consideration (its already a pretty dull tool as it is).

BTW, Thanks for the nice things you said about Control way back when.  I never got the chance to tell you how much I loved the ideas in My Life With Master. Unfortunately, my gaming group of many years wouldn't play with me, so my search for unfulfilled love goes on.

Message 16187#172852

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by leegarv
...in which leegarv participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/3/2005




On 8/3/2005 at 2:20am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

Hello,

"How do I do it?"

I'm on it. Let me take a bit to phrase this just the way I think it'll help the most.

Best,
Ron

Message 16187#172853

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Ron Edwards
...in which Ron Edwards participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/3/2005




On 8/4/2005 at 1:53pm, Sydney Freedberg wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

I'm no publisher, but boy, do I buy games*, so, one comment:

leegarv wrote: .....what I have seen sell in stores is good-looking, well-edited games....


Stores? Forget stores. I don't even know where to buy games in my town (D.C.). None of the half-dozen games I've bought since I found the Forge last year (see below) did I buy in a store. Bought them online, every one. Almost all of them through their publisher's own websites.

Oh, and advertising? No. I bought them all because I saw people praising them on this site.

I'm probably an extreme case. But I'm a case that proves a new world of marketing opportunities is out there for you.

* Since discovering the Forge in spring 2004: Burning Wheel, Capes, Dogs in the Vineyard, My Life with Master, Nine Worlds, Prime Time Adventures, Sorcerer, Trollbabe, and probably some PDFs I've forgotten now. And if you've never heard of any of these games, ah, you've got some cool discoveries ahead of you. They're all linked off the "Independent Game Forums" on this site.

Message 16187#173057

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Sydney Freedberg
...in which Sydney Freedberg participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/4/2005




On 8/4/2005 at 1:59pm, Sydney Freedberg wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

Oh! D'oh! Inspectres. I've also bought the PDF of, and played, Inspectres. If you're reinventing Tales, you've got to look at Inspectres.

I played Tales from the Floating Vagabond in perhaps the second or third RPG session I was ever in, and it was lots of fun (though, y'know, I think the GM played pretty fast and loose with your rules), so I'm rooting for you.

Message 16187#173062

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Sydney Freedberg
...in which Sydney Freedberg participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/4/2005




On 8/4/2005 at 2:44pm, Andrew Morris wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

Yup, I'm with Sydney on this. I haven't been to a gaming store in several years -- there's just no need anymore. My last in-store purchase was second edition V:tM. Since I found the Forge, I've bought a whole slew of games online or at conventions and I'm looking forward to several upcoming games.

Message 16187#173071

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Andrew Morris
...in which Andrew Morris participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/4/2005




On 8/4/2005 at 3:32pm, Wolfen wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

Voice of dissent here: Don't rule out stores. Maybe don't count on them being your primary sales venue, but I've got a FLGS that carries a good selection of indie stuff (Sorcerer, Little Fears, TRoS, a couple others that I don't remember). The bosses for the store go to GenCon every year and make a point to try to bring home something indie. Because of this mindset, Alexander Cherry of Twisted Confessions (lxndr here on the boards) has cut a few local deals with this store (Imperial Outpost games for those who might be in the Phoenix, AZ area) to carry the No-Press Anthology, and Fastlane.

Also, stores will make up some of your advertising "budget" if you're willing to pimp your game at in-store demos, or to have other people who are willing to do it for you. With a name like TFFV, I don't think you'll probably have trouble with local stores picking you up.. From there, it's just a matter of time and word of mouth.

Another direction for indie fame.. maybe talk to Jake Norwood, the creator of The Riddle of Steel. He's no longer "indie" technically, as he no longer owns, nor puts forth the majority of the creative effort for TRoS, but he's still an active affiliate of the new owners of the game, and still does writing. He managed to get a slick looking gloss hard-cover on an indie budget, and while it's still mostly unknown, it's got a rabid fanbase in both America and Europe, as well as other parts of the world.

Message 16187#173081

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Wolfen
...in which Wolfen participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/4/2005




On 8/4/2005 at 5:46pm, jdagna wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

I think stores (and distributors) represent a very real avenue for sales and promotion that shouldn't be ignored.  It doesn't mean you have to make them a priority or spend a lot of effort or money seeking them out, but I think it's absolutely a good idea to work with the opportunities you have.

It is my experience that the most valuable thing for a small-scale publisher is an enthusiastic fan - the kind of guy who likes your games enough to show them to his friends, run demos at cons and just generally carry the torch to places you can't reach.  I have five people I consider in this category.  Two of them I met personally.  One I met at GenCon one year.  One learned about us from a store that picked up a copy of Pax Draconis at GenCon, and he then went on to make sure the store's distributor bought us (so I can credit him with about $800 in sales).  The last person bought the book in a used book store so that I didn't even see a penny directly from that sale, but he's pushed the book on his friends, assisted with playtesting and may even take over writing for the game line.

I don't have the kind of ZIP code data that Ryan Johnson talks about, but these five case studies represent the same kind of phenemonon - people playing the games and spreading the word.  Most of the sales that most of these people generate are direct sales, which means I reap the higher-margin sales in the long-term if I make a few low-margin sales up front.

In my mind, business to stores and distributors fits two categories in my budget: income (from money actually received) and advertising (the "cost" of the discounts).  As advertising goes, those discounts are the most effective form I've tried, with convention appearances second.  They're certainly better than the magazine, direct-mail and online ads I've tried.

Message 16187#173108

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by jdagna
...in which jdagna participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/4/2005




On 8/4/2005 at 5:54pm, MatrixGamer wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

jdagna wrote:
In my mind, business to stores and distributors fits two categories in my budget: income (from money actually received) and advertising (the "cost" of the discounts).  As advertising goes, those discounts are the most effective form I've tried, with convention appearances second.  They're certainly better than the magazine, direct-mail and online ads I've tried.


Well put. While I won't be racking up those discounts as money I can write off on my taxes it is a very solid way of looking at the opportunity costs of not selling the game directly. You could even keep track of that unoffically in you accounting so you'd know the amount not spent on advertising that could have been. And they paid you for that!

Chris Engle
Hamster Press

Message 16187#173110

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by MatrixGamer
...in which MatrixGamer participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/4/2005




On 8/5/2005 at 1:06pm, ADGBoss wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

leegarv wrote:
The plan is to produce a high-quality hardback rulebook (longer, funnier, better) and many supplements and adventures. But Reality Cheque can't do it on its own.


I wanted to comment on this and change topics a bit, so forgive the intrusion as it were. The above quote really caught my eye as it has been a personal bugaboo of mine for some time. Now let me preface it by saying that that model, which I call the Corporate Gaming Model, DOES make some people a lot of money. It is in fact the same model many of the RPG producers have been using for years. It does not however, ensure a quality product or even a succesful one. The reason I get so on about the CGM is because it subboordinates the creative process to the capitalist one. Now do not get me wrong, I have no problem with people making money and have no socialist leanings what so ever... I think. The point though is that the quality fo the game suffers and indeed the design of the game is linked to the marketing scheme, i.e. Rulebook + Splatbooks. I will throw WoTC under the bus here with D&D and point out the way they put the really COOL feats in the various Complete XYZ books. That is not a design idea but indeed a marketing one, to get more money out of us. Yes, it works :) I realize but it is not, IMHO healthy for an RPG to do.

This is not to say that supplemenatary material is bad. I feel the way Ron Edwards handles the various supplements for Sorcerer is very good, because all the cool things about Sorcerer are in the original book. I do not believe that it was designed in the Rulebook + Splatbooks model.

All this brings me to the second point. It may sound a lot more assy then it is meant, because it is not meant to be assy at all. Is Tales Version 2 ready to be published? I understand that you will want to get your business model up and running as well, so when the time comes you will be ready, but the time is never going to come without a game. So, what stage of readiness is the V2 at? Is it ready for playtesting, has it been playtested? Does it need new art? Is the game playable in its current state? I am not a succesful Indie designer, in fact I have never published a game. It is of course my intention to do so but in any case, take what I say with a grain of salt if you wish: No business model is going to make a crappy game sell, not in the current market. Some of the current gamers were not even alive the last time Tales was out. Others were too young to remember it.Clever marketing and a sane business model won't get people to buy the game, well not en masse anyway.

Again just my 2 lunars

Sean

Message 16187#173192

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by ADGBoss
...in which ADGBoss participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/5/2005




On 8/7/2005 at 10:15am, leegarv wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

Hey folks,

Sorry I've been quiet these last couple days, but my internet access is a fickle little minx. To answer a few of the questions and points brought up here:

There seems to be a bizzarre division among internet shoppers and brick-and-mortar shoppers out there.  The vocal majortity of folks on this forum seem (note: I said "seem" - I do not know the workings of your minds, so don't flame me) to discount the value of, and in some cases refuse to patronize, the old fashioned FLGS. On the other side of that debate, people I talk to at my FLGS mostly tell me that they never buy online. If these groups are both telling the truth, then there are TWO complete and seperate markets out there, with patrons of each exhibiting a certain disdain for the other sort of business. In a hobby as already marginalized and befringed as ours, this seems self-defeating. I personally believe that the successful publisher will, and must, pay heed to both markets. Now, of course, the numbers that make a successful web-based business are much smaller than the numbers that make a successful real-world business, but the world has been and will continue to change. It may shock some folks, but I know several gamers who do not have internet access; some who don't even own computers!  They have spending money, too, and they like a good game.  Of course, these are just my thoughts on it.

To the other points that have been raised, The 2nd edition is still being playtested (It's already gone through about five years mor testing than the first version did), and there is no art except for a single painting by Vicky Wyman that I was hoping to use as a plate in the book. I do have a talented young artist lined up for some of the chores, but my vision is to have several different voices on the book, to give greater breadth to the player's inspirations.  If my model seems old fashioned, its because that's the era I came of age in. But please note; I said core rulebook, suplements, and adventures.  I never said "splatbooks"  there will be no "Ultimate Barfly" or "Ultimate Space Ranger" books for TF2V2. By supplements, I meant what you would probably call sourcebooks; campaign guides, locations, organizations, alternate dimensions, and anything else that may be fun. The rules as they stand are certainly adjustable to the tastes of those playing, but they need no seasoning from extra books to do this. Hell, the only "splatbook" from the first edition was the first half of Bar Wars, and those rules (or what they have become) are going into the main book.

I have alot of faith in my core design. That much should be obvious. Maybe this is just nostalgia, maybe its the result of that one week in 1996 that I can't remember, but I think its good, and I think that it can be both good AND comercially successful. Better mousetraps and all that.

But I still have very little idea how to get it off the ground.

Message 16187#173373

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by leegarv
...in which leegarv participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/7/2005




On 8/7/2005 at 3:01pm, Eero Tuovinen wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

leegarv wrote:
But I still have very little idea how to get it off the ground.


In six easy steps:

1) Get the text finished, illustrate
2a) Lay out in two versions: screen and print
2b) Create a web-site with information and the basics of community building; get a forum space
3) Sell in PDF format for a fair price (probably about half of the equivalent printed book)
4) Create fans, preferentially alpha actives; get reviews and especially actual play reports
5) Use the income to plan and execute a print version
6a) Use the cult popularity of the game to leverage it into the gaming shops through your distributor of choice
6b) Sell the print version from your own website alongside the PDF (perhaps giving customers from step 3 a discount on the print version)

That's pretty much the basic theory of minimal capital, minimal risk, maximal market penetration. I credit Ron for inventing it. If you don't see big companies doing it, the chances are that it's because they need to act fast and work within a quarterly framework, which is just enough to advertize powerfully, but not nearly enough to generate an actual track record for the release-of-the-month. A game published through the above steps will start picking up sales after six months of being available, and by all accounts continues to sell for a decade, even. A game published through traditional means seems to sell exactly as long as you continue publishing new supplements.

BUT: From what I've read, nobody who has tried the above model or a variation thereof has actually been happy with the retail sales compared to web-sales. One could take this as an indication that the retail channel doesn't work nearly as well financially for a company without the resources of WotC at their disposal. Gamers are a reticient bunch, and you don't usually get them to buy anything outside their favored game line without major influence. The active buyers usually are also active in the web, so you catch them through those channels. Your average FLGS customer might think that he's a potential customer with ready cash, but my experience has been that that cash is only available for high-profile game lines that have "support", whatever that is. A person might think himself willing to spend money in gaming if he's in the habit of picking up new CCGs or Heroclix boxes, but that's still far off from somebody who'd buy what the average indie rpg publisher is peddling. So it might be wise to consider skipping the retail step alltogether, unless you have some particular and special strategy for penetrating it. Because I'm not seeing even big companies doing that well in retail, and they are the ones with the big advertising budgets.

--

So, what I want to say here is that you're quite right about there being solely retail markets you can't tap through the internet. That's true. However, your priority as a publisher should be to FIRST evaluate whether that market is profitable for you, and THEN start planning how to get in there. The point is that there is alternatives, if all you want is to sell a game and make a profit. You don't have to take all the risks the retail channel entails, and you shouldn't, unless you have a solid, realistic plan based on real knowledge about the market. Too many folks go retail just because they think it's the only option. You see, when something like that is your only choice, then you easily figure out that "hey, if others can do it, then so can I" and never stop to consider whether you can even be profitable that way.

Message 16187#173385

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Eero Tuovinen
...in which Eero Tuovinen participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/7/2005




On 8/26/2005 at 6:28pm, Jake Norwood wrote:
RE: Re: Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

I just found this thread, so I'll chime in. I'm Jake Norwood, the guy who created/wrote The Riddle of Steel and a few years later sold it to the current owners, who are doing a good job with it.

And Lance, I am still Indie--I've got other games out there some of you are playing! TROS just isn't indie anymore.

Here's my tips.

Avoid the glossy hardcover. It's not really worth it, IMO. Maybe do a limited number. Companies such as Express Media (in Nashville) can make this very affordable in small quantities, which was previously impossible.

Internet Sales and Print-on-demand technology, which is now incredibly good, especially at a specialty company (again, Express Media) as opposed to Kinkos.

Word of Mouth is what sells games at the small-press level. Don't expect anything else. Capitalize on this. Luke Crane of Burning Wheel is a ninja master at this, as is Ron Edwards. I think I did it on accident, via a large amount of still debated controversial marketing strategies (there is no bad press).

Enthusiasm and a solid game. Production values, honestly, come waaaayyy behind a solid game. Production values might -- MIGHT -- get you a flash in the pan (think Children of the Sun). A good game will take you very, very far (think Sorcerer's trip from text files to hardcover over several years).

Jake

Message 16187#175934

Previous & subsequent topics...
...started by Jake Norwood
...in which Jake Norwood participated
...in Publishing
...including keyword:

 (leave blank for none)
...from around 8/26/2005