Information about game (So you know what I'm talking about.)
Title: Grinder
Genre:   Sci Fi Miniature Wargame Rules
approx: 60 pages
color cover, b/w artwork inside
market:   pdf and perfect bound copies
Grinder is a whole new approach to wargaming with miniatures.  Based on real principles of war and command, the Grinder system lets you be a general.  Your men will try to follow orders to the best of their ability, and they will react accordingly to new situations on the battlefield.

I feel like an orphan as a wargamer (I do rpg too), but damn, you guys at the Forge rock.  I have been writing a wargame that will lead to a RPG game supplement in the future.  I hope wargame is not a bad word here.  The wargamers on the internet really don't have their crap together like the Forge does.  Lurking here for a few months has been a treasure.  Thanks for some good threads.

I have playtested the hell out of the rules system.  Every time I re-read the rules I add, subtract, or stare at it thinking of better ways to explain something.  Now I'm thinking I'm just changing the rules not making them better, just different.  I am on the last chapter of writing history (of the future, hmmm.)  Here are a few questions I have:

How many times do you proofread your material?
When do you say that's it?
When does playtesting end?
If you do find some mistakes down the road, how do you handle that?
What do you do when you know you have to work on it more, but your just sick of looking at it? (The ahh...How can I be mad at you syndrome.)  Trick question.  Don't answer, but I feel like this sometimes.
How do you handle constructive criticism and blatant attacks on the rules?
Finally, how do you get over being scared to put it out there? (Even though it's the best friggin miniature rules system in the universe. jk)

Sorry for the ramble,
Sandman

i love wargames....

and...the best i could answer would be

How many times do you proofread your material?/ Hundreds n hundreds of times. but never do it yourself...you need other eyes to look at it..you will never see all of your own mistakes...

When do you say that's it?/ NEVER BWAH HA HA! or until i find its perfect...

When does playtesting end?/ the day its so perfect that u call it.."playing it" not "play tesing it" i find it ridiculus how many people play test a game for a few weeks and then think its done....play test the shit out of it, and dont just test with one group...and test with outsiders, not just your friends....

If you do find some mistakes down the road, how do you handle that?/ change it..play testing will fix that...if your looking to publish or print the game, then a long play-testing is prolly the best thing to do. finding mistakes will be a major task...one you cant do yourself...you need others to look it over...others who have a passion for the type of game your making.

What do you do when you know you have to work on it more, but your just sick of looking at it? (The ahh...How can I be mad at you syndrome.)  Trick question.  Don't answer, but I feel like this sometimes./ put it down...work on sumthing new for a bit...re-kindle the magic by ignoring your baby for a month or two...oh wait..you said dont answer.

How do you handle constructive criticism and blatant attacks on the rules?/ swallow them, see why they said it..and fix it...the people judging your rules prolly are friends, or people you know..if this thing is going to find its way into stranger's homes n hands, then you better have it perfect...cus if friends will attack it, strangers will kill it.

Finally, how do you get over being scared to put it out there? (Even though it's the best friggin miniature rules system in the universe. jk)/ love your game, strive to make it great, and then let your child walk....dont fear your game's new freedom, let it fly.

just my thoughts.....ps, cant wait to play....and what minitures will i need? i always wanted to make a miniture's game, but i lack the ability to mass-produce the peices...i can sculpt (damn well actually) but i cant mass-produce the lil buggers.

Thanks for the reply Sif

Proofreading - A week ago I sent the rules out to a group of friends who I felt are dead honest.  They are now proofreading for me, and have come up with some great suggestions already.
I think the next step I will take will be a professional editor/proofreader.

Playtest - We have been playtesting the basic ruleset for a little over a year. (wargame time = once every two weeks on average)  This has been with friends and my old wargame group.  The next step here will be finding the outsiders.  What would you suggest?  There is a hobby store and a couple gaming groups nearby that are supportive to the hobby.  My friend says we should set up demo day at the hobby store.  Guess he is right.

Criticism - The answer here will be to let strangers see it before I publish it.  Looks like demo day is coming at the hobby store.

what minitures will i need?
Any.  The game is designed to use any sci fi minis.  We use 28mm GW for most pieces.  Grinder will have army lists within the core rules for players to start playing right away.  The Grinder universe has the following armies in it: Mega-Corporate Marines, United Federation Forces, Orc Warlords, and The Grays.  In time, a supplement will be done letting players make up their own army lists using whatever figs they want to use and includes several new army lists including Elvaren, The Core, Swarm, Saurian, Conferderates, and Necros to name a few.

i lack the ability to mass-produce the peices...
The equipment for this process is very expensive, large, and smelly.  You have to like working with molten lead, molten pewter, and silicon rubber products.  I played with the idea, but would rather have someone else cast if I got into this part of the process.

i can sculpt (damn well actually) but i cant mass-produce the lil buggers.
Sculpting is in high demand for games right now.  With the new figure companies out there the quality is very high.  Rackham, Games Workshop, Reaper, Mammoth, etc... are all doing some fine work.  Most miniature designers are now diversifying their product lines by making games with their miniatures.  This is one of my gripes.  I like some of the figures, but don't like the games sold with them.

I feel your pain with regard to being unable to produce miniatures for a miniatures game system.

If I may ask, how is this affecting your design? For example, I noted that you have army lists. If you have no way to control/provide the minis used, are you sure that themed army lists are the best way to approach this?

I feel your pain with regard to being unable to produce miniatures for a miniatures game system.
With the initial outlay of expenses for such a task, it makes it untouchable for me right now.  Not to mention finding the talent to sculpt the figures in the first place.

If I may ask, how is this affecting your design? For example, I noted that you have army lists. If you have no way to control/provide the minis used, are you sure that themed army lists are the best way to approach this?
Like all of us, we turn what could be a weakness into a strength.  By taking a look at what figures are out on the market, I summarized them into basic army categories.  Taking these summarized forces, I made some generic themed armies with them.  Further along, I want to include the formulas for making these armies so players can do it themselves.  I thought it would be easy to make armies, but it seems harder to make balanced armies than the rules themselves.
So in the end, you can choose whatever figures your heart desires.  I will advise that players get together in their own groups and find what is acceptable for them.  If your group is okay with it, then run with it.  What other suggestions would you have?  Kind of a figureless figures game, rofl !!!

-Sandman

What other suggestions would you have?

With the initial outlay of expenses for such a task, it makes it untouchable for me right now.  Not to mention finding the talent to sculpt the figures in the first place.

[Grinder]
I'd make it a skirmish/Warband game based on space pirates. The advantage is that you then play into the diversity of really nice figures that are currently on the market. If an individual player then had the urge to create a themed warband they could, but there wouldn't be a penalty for not doing so.-
Actually you have gravitated toward my other ideas.  The whole system will consist of several projects.  Why just have one project?  The wargame will be a mass game of combat.  It will have a supplement to fill out a few more rules for more armies and campaign play.  After the first game, I'm going through the paces of making a graphic novel in the same universe as the game. (I used to be a pro artist in the computer gaming field.)  That will tie into the role-play game that will follow up the wargame.  Space pirates, marine teams, alien explorer teams, recon assassin teams all of these would be possible in the rpg.  I have a definite like for the d100 system.  I am also totally into skills, equipment, and background of characters.  The whole package should have something for everyone.  It's a lot of work, but the ball is rolling.  Wargame is almost complete, graphic novel is in draft, supplements are in draft, and the rpg is in my head.

There is a Yahoo group devoted to miniature sculpting that I belong to.
I've been there too.  It's filled with some good stuff.  I have to sharpen up on my sculpting skills.

Hey, I just went down to the local hobby store today, and asked about demoing the game.  The store manager was totally cool, and said he would actually play and contribute ideas.  The stone rolls faster.

-Sandman

if you asigned colors to the armies (red= mariens, blue = swarm, etc etc) you could buy little labling stickers in any office store, and just slap them on any figure to show what army is belongs to, allowing anything to be the figure...you could use checkers or any token with a colored sticker on it...you can buy these stickers pretty small.

this would only work if the rules didnt revolve around the figures being indiviually differnt inside actual armies(rifle man is different then flame thrower man etc).

i was just thinking that....

Hey Sandman:
I just remembered something I'd seen previously regarding miniatures. There is an Australian minis companuy called Eureka that does something like Greg Stoltze's Ransome model, but for miniatures development. They call it the  100 and 300 CDlub. Here's the link to their site with the page talking about it:
http://eurekamin.com.au/custom.php

I doubt it is exactly what you're looking for at this stage, but it is worth considering.

sandmanx wrote:
How many times do you proofread your material?
When do you say that's it?
When does playtesting end?
If you do find some mistakes down the road, how do you handle that?

well said...and i enjoyed reading it

Preferably, you want to find people who are willing to play the game using the text alone, no advice from you. The purpose here is two-fold. First, it's to make sure other people understand your text. Second, it's to find flaws & weaknesses you might have missed. As designers, when we run our own games, we tend to fill in the holes and drift people away from weaknesses.

Timfire thanks a lot!  Those are some precious words of wisdom.  I never thought about that before, but it is so obvious.  Now I have to get on that right away.  Super advice.  I'll set up a wargame next weekend WITHOUT ME DOH!!!  Never thought that would happen.  Timfire Tip# 003 - Life of a games designer - Many times you set up a game without you in it.  Ack!

Thanks Timfire,
Sandman

i can sculpt (damn well actually) but i cant mass-produce the lil buggers.
Sculpting is in high demand for games right now.  With the new figure companies out there the quality is very high.  Rackham, Games Workshop, Reaper, Mammoth, etc... are all doing some fine work.  Most miniature designers are now diversifying their product lines by making games with their miniatures.  This is one of my gripes.  I like some of the figures, but don't like the games sold with them.

You might also want to check out this thread:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=16268.0

In particular the part about injection molding. Think: Your sculpting talent (sweat equity)+ company that needs parts for their games and may own an injection mold machine in the future=?

It certainly made my ears perk up.

Sifolis wrote:
i can sculpt (damn well actually) but i cant mass-produce the lil buggers.