This is an update to my game called GUILDS.  The first thing is the game will no longer be called GUILDS.  It might be called “FATES REALM” or “REALM OF FATE” were not sure yet.  At first the most important thing about playing this game was to be apart of a guild and go out in the world and raise your guilds name.  After some talks we realized that where as that is important that should not be the main focus of the game.  Let me describe some basics so you understand the new direction we are taking, or finally a direction.  There are 16 spheres of magic: AIR, DEATH, EARTH, ELCTROMANCY, ENCHANTMENT, FIRE, HEALING, WATER, DIVINATION, FATE, LOVE, MORPHING, SPIRIT, SUMMON, TIME, and TRANSMUTATION.  Each sphere has its own realm, so there are 16 realms.  Each realm is laid on top of the other so they all overlap one another.  All realms connect to the FATE realm, which is the realm all of the races are from.  Normally a creature from a certain realm can only use magic from that realm in that realm.  For example a fire creature from the fire realm can only use fire magic on the fire realm, and if he went to the air realm he could not use fire magic because he is not on the fire realm.  He would have to use air magic.  Now The Fate realm is the only realm that all magic can be used, and is used often.  This is because over time the other magic spheres leaked magic onto this realm and the races figured out how to use it. 
Now Fate magic can be used on all other realms, so this makes it a very powerful magic.  The creatures of the other realms or “realmlings” as they are called, with great amount of power do not like the fact that fate magic can be used on there realm but the only places they can use there magic is on there own realm or the fate realm.  Realmlings come to the fate realm to learn other magic so they can figure out away to get rid of fate magic.  So the players, whither they know it or not fight in some way these people to keep fate as it is.  Fate magic works behind the scene most of the time working for a common goal, but how it gets there can be many different roads.  The players either help fate or help to destroy fate by there actions in the game.  The characters themselves might now they are working for fate and some might not, that is up to the players, but the over all plot of the game is to help or hinder fate as the GM or players see fit. 
Now question time.  Does this sound like interesting or a game people might buy?  The rules of the game are down pretty solid, it is just the direction of the game we are having some trouble with.

Hello, John

You're asking the right question. Direction is the most important thing you can examine. Let's call it purpose or "What THIS game is about." It's the thing that will define what your game is, how it compares to a legion of fantasy games, and why people should like it.

Clearly, you're excited about your game, and its mechanics. But, me, I don't know any of that stuff yet. I haven't read or especially played your game. So, when I read all this stuff about you changing it from GUILDS to all this stuff about spheres and Fate magic, I'm getting lost. I'm not excited about this stuff.

That's because you need to step back a bit and figure out what your game's purpose is. I can't see what that is right now, so that's why I'm not excited.

The most important answer you must find is not about Guilds or Fate or any of the neato stuff you've got in your game. Rather, what you must answer is what the players who will actually play the game actually do.

When they make a character, how will a player know what to do with the character? Will the game master lead them by the nose? What kind of input do players have on the way the game is played, and the direction a game session goes?

What do you want real people playing the game to get out of your game? Is playing the game comparable to other games they've played before? If so, why would they play this particular game?

Can you take a stab at explaining some of these questions before leaping into all the detailed bits of spheres and the like? I don't think many people can tell you whether its interesting or a game they might buy. Right now, we can't tell how it might be different from, say, D&D or maybe Ars Magica.

When you say "the over all plot of the game is to help or hinder fate as the GM or players see fit" - what exactly does this mean? It seems like you're saying "the group can do whatever they want", which isn't really saying anything. Do you mean, rather, that players are supposed to actively take sides - for or against fate?

What, exactly, does fate want? Do the players know? Do the characters know? Or is it mostly a way for the GM to present plots/scenarios - "okay, this session, fate wants you to do X"?

Ok let see if I can answer both posts in one shot.  It might take a few tries to get it right but here I go.  When I was talking changing guilds I have another post I made about 2 months on the summery of GUILDS including the dice system and a bit on what the characters do.  I was referring to that post.  The game is in the GMs hand so the players should be more or less following the story he has laid out.  It should not be lead by the noses type of play but should be more of here is the story and if the players go off track find a way to bring it back in a way they enjoy.  As far as the players input the GM should notice if the players are having fun or not and if not change gears to fit the groups need.  So I guess in the long run it is alot like D&D.  When making this game I put it in a fantasy setting for the freedom the setting has.  I like have the different races and choices for both players and GM's.  There are alot of similarities between my game and games like D&D by design.  The reason why I think people would buy my game over others is because of the magic.  Everyone is a mage and magic is so ingrained in the world in simple folks use it to make bread and daily chores.  The magic system is set up so you can cast any spells you can think of, or choose from our spell list and modify them if you wish.  No havin a certain number of spells per day or magic points to run out of.  The game also has been designed from the ground up so it has a brand new system using 3D12's for everything.  Even the races which are common for fantasy have there own twist.  One of those being that no races hates anyother race.  They might hate a town or kingdom and be waring but no hate of the race.

To try to answer the other post, Fate is the magic that binds everything togeather and keeps things going smoothly.  Now there are people, creatures, and other things trying to get rid of fate thinking that will make their lives eaiser.  Because fate works things from behind a curtin so to speek and will not interfer directly, fate has to rely on others helping it do its will to place people in places to help at the right time.  In game terms it is mostly for the GM with his plot but should not be used to say "it is ok thats what fate wanted".  Because magic is everywhere and anyone can learn magic, alot of people who have stuided fate could come up with the answer that fate more or less controls everything, and will agree or disagree with that.  If they agree they might try to do things that they think fate would want them to do, and if they disagree they might do things that they think fate does not want them to do.  In the end neither party knows what fate is trying to only the GM (for game term) knows what fate wants. 

In the end the player can know about how fate works or if they have never stuided fate they can go through the game just playing apart of a guild trying to carve out a life for himself.  How ever the player plays his character the overall theme is how are you going to help/hinder fate, even though most games will never bring up fate.

I hope this helps.  If it does not help I will try again to explain, for I have all of the ideas but I am not very good at putting them down into words so people understand. 

What does one do in your game?  That is, what are the stories about?  Is it left entirely up to the GM?  If so, are there any guidelines at all? 

-Eric

Other games have done the pervasive magic thing. How do you plan to tackle it? What limitations are there for magic use, if not a point system or spells per day? Or is every spellcaster unlimited in power? If you could pull that off, you'd have one hell of a game.

And I really liked the guilds thing. I'd like to see a game like that. I don't understand why you canned the idea. It was different... especially if you provide some strong rules for tracking a guild's success against other (NPC?) guilds.

Oh, I think I found your previous post in GUILDS new game ( very long) . It helps if you link us back to that intro material in your new posts, especially once you change then name. I see you took a stab at answering the "What is the game about?" and "What do characters do?" bits and it sounds like the answer can be summed up as, "same as D&D." Did you read the articles that Troy pointed you at before?

They're here: Fantasy Heartbreakers and More Fantasy Heartbreakers? Those are great places to start to get some new ways to look at your own game. I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong, but I think you could use some more perspective.

Also, you said that you're currently in playtesting. That means two things: 1) You can post some actual rules for us to look at and comment on. 2) You can post some playtest reports in Actual Play -- that forum is where all the magic happens on The Forge. Good luck!

After reading your old thread, this stuck out at me;

The main point of the game is to be part of a guild and increasing that guild's reputation through your actions.  Everything you do or do not do will reflect on your guild and yourself.  That is the characters’ purpose. 

Dang.  My eyes must be totally out of focus or something.  You already answered all those questions.  I hope you'll pardon me for being temporarily obtuse.

I guess the answer would be there is no real overall plot for the game, it is just a vehicle for pure, unadulterated adventure.

The rules of the game are down pretty solid, it is just the direction of the game we are having some trouble with.

Thanks for all of the replies so far.  Yes I have read the heatbreakers reports and thought they were good.  The reason I started with the dice system first is because I am good with that part of the game and the way my groups work that would lead into the point of the game.  And it did sort of.  The first point of the game was to be apart of a guild and the troulbes that become of that.  We have not got much feedback on that so we thought of the FATE idea.  Because we are creating the point of the game now I thought I would post and see if I got feedback on either idea.  My goal is to make the game so people enjoy the game so if most people like one idea over the other we will go with that.  I like the guilds being the main focus of the game but people did not seem to like it or did reply to it. 

As far as rules yes I have rules I can post but I have about 122 pages of rules so it might take me a day or so to figure out what to post.  I will post some rules it just might be a little time

The magic system is both unlimted and confined at the same time.  Because of the how it is created you can try to cast any spell you want big or small.  The problem comes when you fail.  If you fail a spell by 10 or more points then you take half of the effect of the spell.  For example if you made a 14 point fireball to hit one person and you failed by 11 points then you would take 7 points.  If you critically fail your spell then you take the full effect of your spell.  It is the magic backlashing at you.

The reason we choose 16 spheres is because your skills and attributes range from 1-16.  We wanted people who were at the top of there game to be able to have all of the spheres.  With 16 spheres we have been able to cover most spells people want to try.  While 16 spheres seem like alot they are broken down into easier to manage areas.  There are 2 different areas covering 8 spheres each.  Basically they are broken down into comabt (the spheres most likey to be used in combat) and non combat (spheres most like to be used outside of combat) spheres.  At charcater creation you pick normally only 2 or 3 spheres out of the 8 for each list.

Ah-ha. I see the problem.

My goal is to make the game so people enjoy the game so if most people like one idea over the other we will go with that.  I like the guilds being the main focus of the game but people did not seem to like it or did reply to it. 

John,

Can you post the rules in their entirety on another site? If you need a place to host it, I can pop it up on a web site for people to download. Or just talk more about some of the big ideas in the game. Like the guilds. =)

Here are some basic rules.

Before I start explaining the rules let me tell you a little about the characters.  Characters have 7 main attributes and for every main attribute there are 2 sub-attributes.  All skills go under a sub-attribute.  The reason for the 2 sub-attributes is because every main attribute has 2 sides of the attribute.  The agility main attribute for example has the sub-attributes dexterity and reflex.  In order to be agile you need both dexterity and reflexes, which is why we made it up that way.  For every roll you make you will only be using 1 sub-attribute or main attribute.  Here is a list of the main attributes with their sub-attributes.  Every main attribute starts with 0 points except magic with starts at 4 for everybody.  You can have no less than 2 points in every main attribute. 


STRENGTH:
Might
Body

AGILITY: 
Dexterity
Reflex

MENTAL: 
Intelligence
Wisdom

PERCEPTION:
Awareness
Instincts

SOCIAL: 
Charm
Manipulation

STAMINA:
Endurance
Resistance

MAGIC:
Sorcery
Channeling

Now I am going talk about actions and weapon styles.  Actions work a little differently than most others games.  You get your total number of actions from 3 places, you normal amount of actions, you weapon, and your weapon style.  Everyone gets 2 actions per round normally.  Every weapon also has a number of actions it has, the faster weapons have more actions but less damage and the slower weapons have less actions but more damage.  All weapons range from 0-3 actions.  The last place you get actions is from your weapon style.  Everyone chooses 1 weapon style at character creation.  A weapon style is the style your character fights in.  There are 5: Weapon and shield, single weapon, two-weapon, two-handed weapon, and bow.  Every style gives you special abilities you can use once a round and also a number of actions you can use.  Some weapon styles only give you extra defensive actions and some you can use for any action.  Most people end up with 5 or 6 actions a round.  This might seem like a lot of actions but you have to split all of your actions between attacking and defending, as well as any magic you might want to cast.  Damage is a set number for every weapon.

Sense we have covered the main backgrounds of the rules I can now go into the rules themselves.  The basic rules that need dice are as follows:  Roll 3D12 and then add your skill and the proper sub-attribute.  Add all of that up and you have your total.  Skills are going to range from 1-16 most of the time your sub-attribute will be no higher than 8 (your main attribute is split among your 2 sub-attributes)  so with out dice your max total comes out to 24 and your max total on 3D12 is 34 without a critical success. So the total max you can have should be 58.  To critically succeed you need 2 of the dice to come up with 12’s and to critically fail you need to have 2 of the dice come up with 1’s.

Basic resolution is non-opposed and opposed actions.  Non-opposed actions are your standard target number action.  When the GM gives you your target number (TN) to equal or beat you roll your 3D12 then add your skill with the right sub-attribute, and if your total equals or beats the TN then you succeed and if do not then you fail.  Target numbers run from 0-49+.

0-12: So easy that if you fail you either should pack up and go home or you are very,
      very, very, very drunk.
13-24: Easy
      25-36: Average difficulty.
37-48: Hard.
      49 plus: So hard a demon might have to look up to you for succeeding at this task.

The opposed actions are the actions you use to fight the NPCS or players most of the time.  In this case you roll your 3D12 and add it to your skill and proper sub-attribute.  If your total beats your opponents then you succeed and if you have less then you fail.  Ties go to the defender. 

Damage is very deadly in this game.  The normally combat rounds are lucky if you hit 4 rounds of combat.  The highest I have seen in play testing is 6 rounds and the lowest is 1 round.  As I said earlier all weapons have a set amount of damage they do ranging from 4-20 points of damage a hit.  Remember with most people taking 2 or more attacking actions a round even the least damaging weapons become deadly.  Every player has hit points in each location, and there are 6 locations of the body: Head, Torso, Left arm, Right arm, Left leg, and Right leg.  As play tested even the player with the most hit points can die in one turn.  If you do not call your shot you roll a D 12 to determine the location you hit:

1=head
2, 3=left arm
4,5= right arm
6,7, 8=torso
9, 10=left leg
11, 12=right leg

If you are doing a called shot to a location you subtract 6 points from your total and if you still beat the other person then you do double damage to that location.  When creating the game we wanted it to be deadly when people started pulling weapons and even the dagger can kill quickly.  Some kind of armor is almost required to fight in this game.  We have armor that ranges from padded to gothic plate.  Damage is subtracted from the armor before you.  That is the basic of my game.  Next post I will go into magic and why it is so unlimited.

Here is some basic magic rules.

There are 3 ways you can cast magic in the game.  You can create your own spell with the spheres you have, you can choose one of the pre made spells and cast that, or you can choose a pre made spell and modify it a little for a new spell.  When casting a spell in the game the character will draw symbols in something and at the end of it the spell goes off it you succeed.  You can draw in the air, ground, water, your coffee; anything that can be drawn upon you can cast a spell.  Every sphere of magic has certain magic symbols and when you add or take away parts of the symbol  you increase or decrease the effect of your spell.  Now for game terms.  There are 7 charts in which you look to create you spell.  Out of the 7 charts you only need to use 4 of them.  The charts are:  spontaneous; predetermined; duration; people affected; range; area effect; and effect (damage/healing/defense.)

The spontaneous and predetermined charts are much the same.  These charts tell you how long it is going to take to cast your spell.  You will use one of the charts not both.  You simply move from one chart to another find the effect you want from each chart add how much that effect costs with the carts before it and come up with a total.  Your spell total now becomes your target number you have to beat like a normal non-opposed action. 

In this way you can create any spell you want to as long as you have the right spheres to cast the spell big or small.  In the same way you can take a pre-made spell and change it with the charts because every pre-made spell has the charts used and how many each chart cost for that spell.  The only limit on what spell you can cast is the mage himself and if he thinks he can cast the spell.

More than one mage can cast a bigger spell if need be.  For bigger spells or if you do not have the right spheres you can get another mage to help you cast the spell.  Every mage that helps you must contribute to the spell, so he cannot be doing the same thing you are.  They would need to use another sphere.  In this way you can make even bigger spells.  There needs to be one mage casting the spell and the other mages assist the mage casting the spell.  The first mage cast the spell like normal using 3D12 +skill+ sub-attribute and the other mages roll 1D12 and add that total to the mix.  If a spell backfires it affects all mages helping the spell as well as the mage casting the main spell.

Okay, so far standard fantasy RPG fare.

How does game play proceed? How are GM powers distributed? Who has the authority to contribute content to the Shared Imagined Space and in what ways?

What is your game's reward system?

Can you show me a bit about what you had in mind for the Guilds?

I am not sure what you mean by the first part but as far as rewards go we have XP or experience.  For skills once you have put 100 XP into it the skill goes up.  It does not matter what level the skill is at only 100 XP.  For attributes you can only raise your sub-attribute and that costs 200 XP.

So far what we have for the guilds there are many different types of guilds covering all sorts of jobs like the city watch guild, ,the mage guild, the Adventures guild, the scouting guilds, and so one.  Evey city has more than one guild of different types so for example a larger city might have 4 or 5 mage guilds in the same city.  The player can choose a guild from the book if the city is in the book or they can invent there own guild and where they belong in that guild.  Unless you talk with your GM you are just a member of the guild.  If you do good things for your guild you can gain rank and if you do bad things you can lose rank or your life.  A guild is also where you get your jobs from.  In this world because guilds are so very important and each guild has a rep when people need things done they go to a guild.  If you are not apart of a guild you will find it very hard to find work or anything really because people do not trust you.  There are also illegal guilds you can join and they do less than nice things.  The thieves guild would be the best example of a illegal guild.  From here the story takes over.  If you want to take your guild and send through the ranks of socity either by force or other means then go ahead. 

If you want players to focus on the guilds, perhaps you should tie the reward system up to the guilds?

So that instead of getting XP for fighting opponents (just as an example; I don't know what your rules actually say about this), you could get XP for doing what's good for the guild. And instead of XP increasing skills in general, they could increase your rank in the guild. The higher the rank, the tougher the adventures.

You could also have players accumulate points (call them Standing, for example) for their guild, and at certain break points (every 100 points, for instance), describe how the guild becomes more successful.

These are just quick examples - the point is that it's a good idea to think through exactly what behavior you want your game to encourage, through its reward system.

[Crossposted with matthijs, but no harm done. His examples fit nicely with what I'm saying.]

First, let me explain that first part that you don't understand.

How does game play proceed? Tell me the typical sequence of events in a game, in abstract terms. For example, in D&D it's something like: Players roll up characters. DM then prepares an adventure for them. During the adventure, the DM describes a place and the situation and the players react. Etc.

How are GM powers distributed? Does your game have a typical GM? That is, does a single person do all the things you think of as GM things, or do players get any of those powers at any time? For example, some games have a revolving GM, and my Verge game gives the "GM" ability to set difficulties/target numbers to the players.

Who has the authority to contribute content to the Shared Imagined Space and in what ways? Everyone at the table contributes to the SIS. When the GM says, "You see an orc," he has invented an orc in the SIS and established that he's within visual range of your character. When the player says, "I hail him in Orcish," you've established that your character can talk, that your character knows Orcish, and that there is even such a language as Orcish. Maybe the rules said there was such a language but maybe you just assumed and made it up. Games are full of assuming and quiet assent from other players that allows everyone to introduce all kinds of wonderful ideas into the SIS without a whole lot of talking about it. Good rules nail down exactly who has the authority to make various kinds of statements about the SIS.

Regarding a reward system, you've told me just over half of it: how players spend XP to increase skills. You haven't told me how players earn XP and how often and when they're allowed to spend it. I think you're making tons and tons of assumptions based on "my game is just like D&D except here and here and here." I don't know a lot about your game, so I'm not assuming right off the bat that it's just like D&D (or any other game), though the picture is getting clearer by the minute that you have a pretty classic Fantasy Heartbreaker here.

Guilds! Cool, this is the part that has the potential to be unique. I don't know of any fantasy game with a strong system for managing guild interactions.

You haven't told me anything about the systems you had in mind for managing guilds. What kind of rules are behind this, or is it just setting and color?

In what you wrote, I see a couple hooks that might turn into system:

"The player can choose a guild from the book." Okay, a system to describe guilds, perhaps with some stats or maybe not, but a system nonetheless.

"They can invent there own guild." A system to create a guild from scratch. Rules to limit and inspire guild creation. Is this a player adding a guild to the city as if it had always been there, or is this the player having his character create a guild, or both?

"If you do good things for your guild you can gain rank and if you do bad things you can lose rank or your life." That screams System. How do you measure what a "good thing" or "bad thing" is? How do you measure rank? What game currency do you earn that allows you to climb in rank?

"A guild is also where you get your jobs from." Is there some kind of system to generate jobs? Who makes up these jobs? The GM? The players? A random roll on a table? A draw of a deck of guild job cards?

"In this world because guilds are so very important and each guild has a rep when people need things done they go to a guild." Each guild has a rep. There's gotta be a system for that. Are reputations ranked numerically or is it a qualitative ranking like "well respected among the other blacksmith guilds but hated by the tanners"? Can a guild have different reps for different relationships?

"If you are not apart of a guild you will find it very hard to find work or anything really because people do not trust you." Ooh, trust. How do you plan to model that? Have you read an indie game called The Mountain Witch? You can read the Iron Game Chef version of it for free. It has wicked cool Trust mechanics that might inspire you for your game. Do you have a system in mind to show if you can find work outside of a guild?

"From here the story takes over." Frankly, I think this is a cop-out. The story doesn't take over. The story doesn't have a brain. The story is a construct of hard, creative work on the part of the play group, and they need your help. Give them a good system so that they can create good stories instead of getting bogged down in discussions about stuff your system should tell them.

If you really like the guild thing, do chase it. Look how many system ideas I found in your one paragraph about guilds! It's just yelling out for some development. I hope you can see why a couple of us read your mention of guilds and went, "Dude, cool, do that!"

Thanks for the help in the last 2 posts.  It has givin me something to think about. 

How does game play proceed?  it is pretty much Players roll up characters. DM then prepares an adventure for them. During the adventure, the DM describes a place and the situation and the players react. Etc.

How are GM powers distributed? The GM has complete  control over the game and what direction it goes.

Who has the authority to contribute content to the Shared Imagined Space and in what ways? The GM has the authority over things.

People earn XP by weekly and have based XP then the GM can add or subtract XP based on style of play the players play.  The players can spend XP at any time they want and the effects of the XP take effect instantly.

As far as the guild system we are working on that know so things are a little brief.  I do want the guilds to be a main part of the system so we are trying to build the rest of the setting around guilds. 

When you create your own guild it can be either as it has always been there or you can start the game with a brand new guild.

Right now the GM finds the jobs as part of plot, but have been toying with the idea of random jobs to get the players started in the game,  or something like that.

You are right with the cop-out answer and I need to come up with another answer.  Right now that is about all I can give you on guilds.  The posts have givin me alot to think about and I see now I need to go back and fill in some of these gaps in guilds.

"The GM has complete control over the game and what direction it goes." I doubt that's true, so you probably don't want to tell your players that. You just described a situation where the players have no input at all. If you're a GM in such a game, you might as well just write some fiction and distribute it to the players to read about "their" characters. Now, really, I assume you want players to have an impact on the games they play in, right?

I am probably being unfair here. If you meant to answer that purely within the context of my question, "How are GM powers distributed," then maybe you mean that one person has all GM powers and everyone else has "normal" player powers, whatever normal means. Still, that may lead to some trouble, like all the complaints of "railroading" that you see on the D&D email lists and stuff.

To my question, "Who has the authority to contribute content to the Shared Imagined Space and in what ways?" you answered: "The GM has the authority over things." I don't think you're saying that players have no authority to contribute content to the SIS. That means that players sit there quietly and don't say what their characters are doing, ever.

Regarding rewards, I don't know if biweekly experience works. If you fail to meet for a month, do you get XP anyway? What styles of play should the GM reward?

I don't know how "the GM finds the jobs as part of plot" unless you mean "makes stuff up out of his own imagination" when you say "finds." It's okay to just leave things to the GM, but a lot of people will want some help with this part.

Go do some work and come back and let us know how things are progressing. If you have questions, we're here for you!