In this thread I began by posting my work-in-progress. I am basing my game on this premise: Violence destroys the Self.
Based on the feedback I realised for my premise to work, I needed to define the Self in game terms. Here is my attempt to do this.
This is not a philosphical debate. For the purpose of this game this is the definition of the Self that will be used.

All terms are subject to change.

Definition of the Self.

The Self of your character is made up of the sum of his memories, his relationships and the integrity of his self image. In Carbon Soul, this is recorded in his Cortical Stack real-time.

In game speak this is represented by three Attributes:

Recall – his memories/past experiences
Response – his ability to relate to those around him
Resolve – the strength of his will

Derived from these one develops three different yet important aspects.

From Recall one defines the characters most powerful initial Memories
From Response one defines the Relationships that mean something to the character
And Finally from Resolve one gets the characters Integrity.

These Cortical Attributes also define the characters different Trauma Thresholds. I will discuss these in a little while but before that let me define one more important part of addressing the premise.

Trauma.

Violence inflicts trauma. Whether one is the victim or the perpetrator of violence, it will traumatise one. Physical, social and mental acts that hurt others intentionally are by definition in this game; acts of violence.

Violence hurts. This attacks the self and leads eventually to your characters destruction.

Yet Trauma is useful game mechanically because it grants a pool of extra dice that will by the nature of this game keep getting refilled. It also provides XP on a one for one basis. You get trauma you get XP. This is not the only way to gain XP, but it is the quickest.

The trick is not to fall for the temptation.

But what fun is that?

I will return to this in plenty of detail, but before that lets go back to the Self.

The sum of its parts, or the parts of its sum.

The Cortical Attributes define the three Aspects of the characters self that this game uses to measure the destruction of the character. As the character is driven from hard choice to hard choice, and his Trauma piles up you’ll find that your actions give you less and less choice in regards to where you take your character.

Trauma Thresholds, sounds ominous don’t they? Every threshold is equal to the natural attribute. Once the character’s Trauma Level passes the threshold of a Cortical Attribute you must roll a number of dice equal to Characters Trauma Level in conflict with your Attribute, or the Self.If the Self wins, all is well until the Trauma Level passes the next Trauma Threshold (which is the next multiple of the attribute), when you roll again. However, if the Self looses bad stuff happens. What bad stuff depends on the Attribute in question.

Let’s begin by looking at Recall, the characters ability to draw on his memories and intellect to solve problems. But it’s more than that.

It also controls the Memories of the character.

After character generation the character has a number of good memories equal to his Recall Attribute. These are defined during character generation and they can be of three sorts; mental, physical or social.

A memory can be used to reroll dice that did not come up as successes in a conflict of the appropriate type. You describe how this particular memory helps you and reroll the dice.

You can gain further memories by spending XP after a scene is over and this memory must relate to that scene. If you gained trauma in that scene this is not possible. Or rather it may still be, but with a twist.

Good memories are free rerolls. They carry no penalty in use. But then there is that thing about the Self loosing to Trauma.

At this moment you choose a good memory and it becomes bad. This is a one way process. In your characters traumatised brain this memory now carries a stigma. A Bad Memory still grants rerolls. It’s just that when you use it from now on it gives you a point of Trauma.

Oh do you remember the twist I mentioned. You see you can buy a memory if you gained Trauma in a scene. It just won’t be a Good Memory. Now this might sound like a bad idea, but rerolls are powerful in game mechanic terms, and there is an added bonus. You get a point in your Narration Pool. And yes, more on that later.

Response, your characters ability to relate to others, gives you the next Aspect; his Relationships.

Again the attribute is used in Character Generation to determine your characters starting relationships. You define these by giving them a name, an occupation and by defining the nature of your character’s relationship. Were they lovers, or childhood friends? You decide, the important part is that you care about these people.

To use them in a play, well there are two ways.

First you may pay a point from your Narration Pool and have the Relationship help you in a scene. This may be directly, like fighting by your side, or obliquely by creating a distraction somewhere else. You’re call based on the situation. What ever you think fits.

The second way is the more fun one. You bring the relationship into play in a manner that is harmful or complicates the character’s life. For this you gain a Point to your Narration Pool, but you may have to make some though choices pretty soon. Here the GM gets to choose how to use this Relationship and if he does his job right he’ll use it to make those choices pretty rough. It’s going to be Trauma time.

Before we get to that there are a few other small rules worth mentioning here.
You can only bring a Relationship into play twice pr. Story, once to help and once to hinder.
Once you have entered a relationship in play the GM is free to use this Relationship the rest of the story. How ever, when ever he throws it in your way you get XP, so it isn’t all bad.
By spending quality time with your Relationships you can refill your Integrity Pool. For what that is see below.

This XP you can use to buy a new relationship. After your character has been in a conflict with a non player character you may buy a relationship to this NPC. The nature of this relationship is determined by the nature of the conflict and the GM, unless you buy the right to do so with a point from your Narration Pool.

Can you buy a relationship to other player’s characters?

Well sure you can, but let’s discuss the way Trauma affects your relationships.

Hurting the ones we care about is probably one of the most traumatising things we can do. If you in a conflict inflict harm on a Relationship NPC you get Trauma like this:

Pain (low effect) + 1
Bloodied (medium effect) + 2
Broken (high effect) + 3

And this will push the Trauma Level past a threshold quick. And when your Self looses against the Response Threshold one of these Relationships turn bad. You still care, its just that when ever you are in a conflict involving a Bad Relationship you gain a point of Trauma. It hurts.

There are some other game-mechanical effects here. When in conflict with a bad relationship you get an extra dice on the effect roll. Yes it is easier to hurt those we are angry with, especially if we care about them. You may not mean too, but that doesn't exuse it.

There is another Aspect of the self. The thing that makes your character bounce back when his relationships turn bad, and all his memories turn sour. Its based on his resolve, and it is called Integrity. It is the character’s self worth.

Integrity is a pool of points that lets the character continue when he is Broken. One more follow up conflict for each point spent, ignoring the penalties inflicted by harm.

It can also be spent to reduce Trauma from a Conflict on a point for point basis.

So you see this strength may be useful. It can save your character’s life and self. And like I said above your Relationships help you refill it. This does however count as helping, but does not cost Narration Points.

The problem is that when you pass his Resolve Threshold  and the Self looses, you cross off a point of Integrity. And when you run out your character quits. He seeks respite through Real Death, Stack Burn, either by his own hands or others. Set up the scene and play it out.
Or you can hand him over to the GM to play as a traumatised sociopathic monster. Leaving a problem for his friends to deal with, while you contently can watch them squirm. If you are real nice, the GM may let you do the sociopath dance. I’ll get to this later.

Either way he can be saved. You see in this age Real Death can be tricky, and even if you take out the Sleeve the Self is stored. And this may be forced into therapy. It is going to cost him and his friends a lot. And when he gets out one point of Integrity is lost, permanently. But he is back in your hands again

Back to the Premise again.
The above should create a backbone for a game where the player will be balancing the consequences of his actions against the reward for carrying it out. It is nasty, it might be a death spiral. But this game isn’t about becoming the pinnacle of virtue.

This is a game about people trained to be violent put into circumstances where violence is the only way out. It’s a catch 22 world. It’s a catch 22 game. The stories we’ll tell with this game are stories about finding your way through this emotional minefield to come out on the other side. Here will be the challenge.

But to explain this I have to think and write a bit more. This is how to mechanically address my premise. This is the core.

Now I think I am getting somwhere.

The Dice mechanic is based on the player rolling his Conflict Pool opposed by his opponents Conflict Pool. The player always rolls last.
The die used is D6 and 4+ counts as a success.
The Conflict Pool is found by adding the Relevant Cortical Stack, Skill Value, Sleeve Stat, Geneware and Hardware enhancements and equipment.
The one with the most successes win.
If the outcome of the conflict is digital. (on/off) it ends here.
If the the level of effect needs to be decided there is one more roll.
Roll 3 dice (this number can be modified)
Low effect is guaranteed zero to one successes.
Medium effect comes from two successes.
High effect comes from three successes.

This thread is not about the die mechanic. It is just included for completeness.

I think this will give me the reward/punishment mechanism that will generation exploration of the premise.
Any thoughts will be greatly appriciated. Particulary from you Adam.

Kaare

Just to be clear, what do you want to get out of this thread? Discussion about your reward cycle?

Intriguing concept. It's a bit unclear in a few parts, though. Namely, it seems that Resolve has a lesser part to play than Recall and Response. It doesn't seem to contribute to character creation in the cool way that the other two do.

Also, I'm not entirely sure of what part integrity plays (except that it seems to be both like karma points, and "life"?) and how it's gained and lost.

I'm definitely interested in the idea, though. If you could clarify the various elements (Recall, Response, Resolve, Integrity, Memories and Relationships and what each does for the character, as well as expanding a bit, perhaps with examples, of how the basic resolution works, we'll all be in a much better position to give constructive feedback.

I really like your Resolve/Integrity mechanic.  In a world where the body is ephemeral, 'hit points' are pretty much meaningless.  You hit that perfectly.  What keeps you going is the thing that matters.

I do think you're flirting with a little more complexity than you really need; you may consider making Relationships and Memories work in similar ways -- X dice for Y difficulty -- just with different 'special effects' -- flashbacks that give you insight, or friends that give you assistance.  I'd also put the "Bad Memories" and "Bad Relationships" under a unified mechanic (Corruption?).

That said, am I the only one here that sees this system as applicable to far more than cyberpunk?  This would work excellently for medieval nobles who have to balance whether to be chivalrous knights or despotic warlords.

My home internet is down, I'll reply more in full over the weekend.

Adam, I'll clarify.

What I am asking, given the parameters above (definition of self) will this way of adressing premise, Violence Destroys Self, work or is is a cumbersome colour mechanic.

Right now I am too close to it to see the difference.

I like integrity the way it is, but I agree it is a bit weak and hit pointy compared to the others. More to think about.

I'll type up an example of play at home and bring it in as soon as possible.

Got to run..

Peace

k

I think your rules will pipe action back into your premise rather well.  You've set it up that being human makes you capable of confronting conflicts in a meaningful way, and trauma reduces that humanity, does so tangibly, and you are therefore less capable of confronting conflicts in a meaningful way.  The only thing I'd wonder about is the people who have been completely dehumanized -- systematically, are they still capable of being sociopathic killers?

This probably wont help, because rather than commenting on design it comments on the ideas behind the design.

I think rather than "Violence damages self" a better question may be "Do you give up your own culture, for power?". The apparent personal damage of violence is, IMO, more like a series of narrativist questions which you don't want to make, but in the aftermath of violence, you must. Denial of having to make choices, is where the damage comes in, as you don't make a fully concious choice for yourself. Then have to live with the fallout of that half made choice (until you do actually face it).

The reason you don't want to face that choice is because it'll usually mean giving up part of what you hold dear (which is part of your culture). Like, if your willing to blow away other people, can you ever really sit in bed at night, quietly reading a book in a nice, normal house which isn't a bunker? It's not really part of your world anymore, unless you choose to keep doing it even though you know it could lead to your demise (that leads to another question along the lines of what you'll risk your life over...risk it over the small stuff? Small but perhaps important?)

I guess there are two approaches you could have in a game (a game could even contain both): One is where characters deny the big choices they have to make, half assedly making them and suffering even more fallout as they are caught between the choices. The other is where the character fully makes the choice, but watches part of his own culture burn away. Either that or he still practices that culture, at the potential cost of watching himself burn/die an ugly death.

Callan S wrote: I think rather than "Violence damages self" a better question may be "Do you give up your own culture, for power?".

Wolfen wrote: ... it seems that Resolve has a lesser part to play than Recall and Response ... Also, I'm not entirely sure of what part integrity plays (except that it seems to be both like karma points, and "life"?) and how it's gained and lost

At some point, we can only guess at the answers to these questions. The best answers will come from actual play. Test the thing, post your report in Actual Play, and we can talk about what worked and what didn't. I think you're close to having enough to start playing, right?

Neg: Quest for power? No, you need power to get the job done. Job's don't get done because you give up stuff. You give up stuff in order to gain the power needed to get that task done. Now, do you give it up willingly and face the stark loss of your cultural values. Or do you sit in denial, not making a choice but surely watching either your culture or yourself crumble in the wake of that denial?

First off: I love Trauma.  Not only is it a great name for a stat, but the paradoxical nature of it is wonderful: More Trauma, more ass kicking.  Too much Trauma, game over.  Kick ass, gain Trauma.  Have your ass kicked, gain Trauma.  Perfect!

The rest of the mechanics feel confused to me.  They don't jump out at me.  Not enough synergy; the whole doesn't work together.

How about replacing "relationships" with "values"?  The character has things he cares about.  They're what keeps him going.  These could be people, organizations, an ideal, anything you want.

I'm not a fan of experience points, and I think they feel out of place here.  Consider losing them.

But the main point I want to make: Erase everything Richard Morgan has written from your mind.  Drawing inspiration from him is fine, but you're going too far.  Drop the name "cortical stack".  Don't even think the word "carbon".  Get as far away from as you can without compromising the core vision of the game.  You'll find that you've got a much stronger work as a result.

Callan wrote: Job's don't get done because you give up stuff. You give up stuff in order to gain the power needed to get that task done.

How about replacing "relationships" with "values"?  The character has things he cares about.  They're what keeps him going.  These could be people, organizations, an ideal, anything you want.

AdamDray wrote: At some point, we can only guess at the answers to these questions. The best answers will come from actual play. Test the thing, post your report in Actual Play, and we can talk about what worked and what didn't. I think you're close to having enough to start playing, right?