Topic: Player Goals as part of creation?
Started by: Nogusielkt
Started on: 9/16/2005
Board: RPG Theory
On 9/16/2005 at 7:14am, Nogusielkt wrote:
Player Goals as part of creation?
I've been working on setting player goals as a part of character creation. At some point during creation, most likely one of the first things you do, is roll for or pick a goal for your player. The purpose of the goal is so the player has a reason to choose a less than optimal course of action, or at least something different than the other players in certain situations. After the player gets the general goal from the list, they then tailor it to their character, but most of the time it will be up to the GM as to when the goal comes into play. As an example, let's say your have a goal of killing Tim the sorcerer. The GM places Tim in an enemy group. When the players confront the group, you would likely choose to fight Tim yourself, and the consensus around here is that everyone else in the group would allow this. If the enemies split up, you would likely follow Tim, even if the current goal of the group is to follow someone else. Those are the types of situations I want to create, but so far I haven't been able to come up with many kinds of goals that work like that. Play, however, is non-linear and it is still the player's decision as to whether he would do such a thing.
As an aside, the point of the game is to complete missions given by the government, fight people, and become stronger. Play style is non-narative. Rewards for completing the objective haven't been chosen yet, but it will likely involve increased resources/power. They will then fall back to a generic goal of becoming the best at something. Players are allowed to give themselves goals, but the reward will only be self-satisfaction. What I'm looking for are possible goals or systems with similar systems. I'd like to stay away from a system of beliefs that would be tested, however.
On 9/16/2005 at 7:58pm, Joshua BishopRoby wrote:
Re: Player Goals as part of creation?
Perhaps have the players roll for segments of the goals, rather than the goals entirely. A simplistic example, roll 1d6 on the following four charts:
1 - I must kill...
2 - I must recover...
3 - I must steal...
4 - I must subvert...
5 - I must create...
6 - I must assist...
1 - ...an enemy operative...
2 - ...a friendly operative...
3 - ...technology plans...
4 - ...a computer system...
5 - ...an elected official...
6 - ...a facility...
1 - ...to avenge a past wrong.
2 - ...to prevent certain doom.
3 - ...to gain a tactical advantage.
4 - ...to gain personal fame and recognition.
5 - ...to damage the enemy's abilities.
6 - ...to atone for past wrongs.
There are no specifics in there, but you could add them (depends on how much input you want from players). This also has... um... (6 x 6 x 6) 216 different possible goals.
It sounds from your description that you basically want "side quests" rather than deep life-affirming characterization. Is that accurate?
On 9/17/2005 at 3:44am, Nogusielkt wrote:
RE: Re: Player Goals as part of creation?
Joshua wrote:
There are no specifics in there, but you could add them (depends on how much input you want from players). This also has... um... (6 x 6 x 6) 216 different possible goals.
It sounds from your description that you basically want "side quests" rather than deep life-affirming characterization. Is that accurate?
Yeah. What I'd like is something close to the first two charts, and have the third chart optional. Players would either roll or come up with something. Either way they would develop the specific details of the goal themselves. Then the DM would set up something to happen. However, if they got a 5, 5 on your chart, (create an elected official), the player might just spend time researching things and the DM would have less to setup. One of the things I'm trying to do is have a full set of rules and knowledge so the player will know how the world works. That way there wouldn't be much of a question as to how an official is elected, etc. The goal is personal... it is sort of a sidequest, but it would be carried out either while a character is on a mission or during his free time. Much of both are likely to be spent with his group. Therefore, if he had to kill a friendly operative, he might have to do it without the knowledge of his teammates and, depending upon the location of the mission, set it up to look like someone else did it (players have signature moves, somewhat, so... you know).
In summary (and for anyone else reading), that kind of chart is what I'm looking for, but I need more categories than that for each field, even if they don't work with some other rolls. So I'd still like help coming up with more. Thanks, Joshua, and anyone else in advance.
On 9/26/2005 at 7:03am, Kynn wrote:
RE: Re: Player Goals as part of creation?
Nogusielkt wrote:
I've been working on setting player goals as a part of character creation. At some point during creation, most likely one of the first things you do, is roll for or pick a goal for your player.
Player goals, or character goals?
They're not necessarily the same things.
On 9/26/2005 at 4:10pm, Nathan P. wrote:
RE: Re: Player Goals as part of creation?
Hey there. Whats your name? I'm Nathan.
I just wanted to address this point because I do a very similar thing in Timestream. That is, creating Goals for your character is an explicit and necessary step in character creation. To quickly address Kynn's question from my perspective - by creating a characters goals, you are pointing out that as a player goal, you want to explore that goal with your character. It sounds like you want the characters goals to add complexity to what happens in the game as a whole, which I think is similar. Could you expand on that a little?
Now, I'd also like to point out that there's (at least) two ways to go about this. I approached it from the standpoint that the players are telling the GM what they want to see, which he is then responsable for incorporating into the story. It looks like you are looking for a number of pre-existing goals, either presented in the game itself or created by the GM, which are then picked up by the players. Does that sound right?
I would just ask whether the latter fits into your design goals - how you want these character goals to play out in the game. It seems to me that having the players create goals centralizes those goals in terms of the part they have to play in the game itself, while having them pick from an external set makes the goals something that may or may not be focused on, depending on how engaging the player finds them.
I hope some of that is helpful.
On 9/27/2005 at 3:39am, Nogusielkt wrote:
RE: Re: Player Goals as part of creation?
Nathan wrote:
Hey there. Whats your name? I'm Nathan.
I just wanted to address this point because I do a very similar thing in Timestream. That is, creating Goals for your character is an explicit and necessary step in character creation. To quickly address Kynn's question from my perspective - by creating a characters goals, you are pointing out that as a player goal, you want to explore that goal with your character. It sounds like you want the characters goals to add complexity to what happens in the game as a whole, which I think is similar. Could you expand on that a little?
Hello Nathan. I'd thought this topic was going to die. My real name, believe it or not, is much more complicated than Nogusielkt and I'd much rather be called Nog or Nogusielkt in place of it.
Yes, they are really character goals and not player goals that I want. I'm hoping that it will add that third dimension that characters are sometimes missing from other games that lack a system like this. Making it part of character creation, and not just another chapter in the book, is the way I want to present it. I think it will be accepted better like that. Initially I was trying to come up with a way for two characters to differ on a decision, without help from the player (whether incidental or not). So I tossed a couple of ideas around and wound up thinking of character goals. It fits in with the rest of the world, as far as I'm concerned, and works to accomplish what I had in mind.
Nathan wrote:
Now, I'd also like to point out that there's (at least) two ways to go about this. I approached it from the standpoint that the players are telling the GM what they want to see, which he is then responsable for incorporating into the story. It looks like you are looking for a number of pre-existing goals, either presented in the game itself or created by the GM, which are then picked up by the players. Does that sound right?
Right again. Although I'm not opposed to players making their own goals, which cannot be obtained from a chart, I want a solid base from which they could reasonably make their own. That way they can tell between what should be a goal and what shouldn't be. I intend to include a couple paragraphs and examples to explain that as well. I do, however, want it to be known that the GM might have pre-existing goals in mind and you should check first. Players will not be able to tell the GM the situations they want to get into or how their goal gets solved.
Nathan wrote:
I would just ask whether the latter fits into your design goals - how you want these character goals to play out in the game. It seems to me that having the players create goals centralizes those goals in terms of the part they have to play in the game itself, while having them pick from an external set makes the goals something that may or may not be focused on, depending on how engaging the player finds them.
I hope some of that is helpful.
As far as what I've imagined gameplay to be like, the goals that are created are a major part of your character. Players are encouraged to complete their goals with rewards. During regular play, the GM will present opportunities to move towards completion of your goal. Certain goals are more player driven than GM driven. Characters are given time inbetween missions to work towards their goals, but sometimes goals can be accomplished during missions and sometimes mission goals directly oppose character goals. However, it isn't my intention to break up groups. Play is non-linear, so most choices made will impact the future. It is up to the player to accomplish his goal or not. He doesn't have to complete it if he doesn't want to. There will be no hand guiding the character to the completion of his goal, so the goal itself doesn't have to be focused on. If they decide to, player's could struggle with the goal their character has, moving on and off the path until it's no longer possible to complete it. That's not to say that goals have a time limit, but it could be forced into the corner and be pinched out of play. Thanks for taking the extra time to reply.
On 9/27/2005 at 4:24am, TonyLB wrote:
RE: Re: Player Goals as part of creation?
Nogusielkt wrote:
Yes, they are really character goals and not player goals that I want. I'm hoping that it will add that third dimension that characters are sometimes missing from other games that lack a system like this. Making it part of character creation, and not just another chapter in the book, is the way I want to present it. I think it will be accepted better like that.
Well, one thing to consider is that character creation isn't an isolated process. Indeed, if you view it as part of the game-long process of character development, character creation is just establishing the starting point that the character development process will proceed from.
So, given that: How do you write character goals importantly into the ongoing process of developing the character? Shadow of Yesterday has a nice system of that with Keys, but you seem to be looking for something else.
Oh ... side note ... are you looking at this question from the point of view of general RPG theory, or in terms of a particular game you're writing? Because if it's a particular game you can probably get more productive advice in the Indie Game Design forum.
On 9/28/2005 at 1:02am, Nogusielkt wrote:
RE: Re: Player Goals as part of creation?
TonyLB wrote:
Well, one thing to consider is that character creation isn't an isolated process. Indeed, if you view it as part of the game-long process of character development, character creation is just establishing the starting point that the character development process will proceed from.
So, given that: How do you write character goals importantly into the ongoing process of developing the character? Shadow of Yesterday has a nice system of that with Keys, but you seem to be looking for something else.
Oh ... side note ... are you looking at this question from the point of view of general RPG theory, or in terms of a particular game you're writing? Because if it's a particular game you can probably get more productive advice in the Indie Game Design forum.
I don't view character creation as a game-long process of character development. They are two entirely different things to me. Even so, it's up to the player to give the character goal importance. I checked out Shadow of Yesterdays system of secrets and keys and agree that I'm looking for something else. I do, however, know what I'm looking for... I mentioned it above. The list that Joshua posted is what I want, only expanded to include more. It is, however, a task I will likely have to complete myself. I'll probably make it to a 1d10, 2d10, 3d10 list, more if I can help it.
As for your side note, this is for a particular game I'm writing, but I wanted to look at it in a general view. What happened, however, is I found what I wanted too soon to discuss much of anything. I find it to be more productive talking about something generally and applying it to my situation myself, than having someone do both for me.