Topic: [King Rat] Ronnies feedback
Started by: Ron Edwards
Started on: 10/6/2005
Board: Indie Game Design
On 10/6/2005 at 12:52am, Ron Edwards wrote:
[King Rat] Ronnies feedback
Hello,
King Rat has a tremendously strong starting point, and I think it's one of the few primarily resource-driven, primarily narration-resolved entries that could really shine.
My first recommendation is a specific, stronger setting, perhaps even one that's close to home, Przemyslaw. The Soviet occupation of Poland following WWII comes to mind. I suggest geting political, as well as educational for those of us who probably need it. Your commitment to that material will inspire the reader. And besides, in such a setting, any any surreal elements would fit right in; they show up in the relevant literature all the time.
It's probably clear to most people following the Ronnies that I'm very, very hard on resource-driven Drama mechanics. This is not, however, strictly a preference issue. It has to do with making such mechanics work, and much, much experience has led me to say that you need more than just bidding over conch/speaking privileges.
It's possible that I'm simpoly not clear about how resolution occurs. At the moment, it looks to like "freedom to narrate" based on pure bidding. If that's correct, then my usual criticisms of bidding-based drama apply. One of those criticisms is exploitation of other players via "spoiler" and "counter-punching" tactics, which means minimizing your own turns because they make you a target, and disrupting and pirating the opportunities afforded by participating in others' turns. In this case, it seems like spending to complicate is more fun than bidding to narrate.
I'm also not very sure about GM revision of Global Resources. In fact, what exactly is the GM's role during play? Referee? Banker? Resource manager? Director who provides relevant overall contexts for conflicts? In some ways, play seems like it would be somewhat InSpectres-like, with the GM working mainly from player-generated content, doing little else than providing Color, tracking group-based points, and providing the minimum information to start new scenes.
That's certainly not a bad thing, if it's the case. However, InSpectres is not a competitive-storytelling game, and this is - as such, it suffers from the usual flaws, including weak endgame and the possibility of "advantage goes to the current leader."
To make King Rat work best, I suggest clarifying whether the goals are to push the ethical quandaries to the maximal possible tension, within the fiction, or to provide a strategic context to win in the basic sense of a game of poker or backgammon. A functional game cannot include both of these as the first priority.
With that choice made, this game could provide a unique blend of grimness, politics, and fun.
Best,
Ron
On 10/6/2005 at 4:30pm, PrzeSzkoda wrote:
Re: [King Rat] Ronnies feedback
Great feedback, Ron, thanks!
My first recommendation is a specific, stronger setting, perhaps even one that's close to home, Przemyslaw. The Soviet occupation of Poland following WWII comes to mind. I suggest geting political, as well as educational for those of us who probably need it. Your commitment to that material will inspire the reader. And besides, in such a setting, any any surreal elements would fit right in; they show up in the relevant literature all the time.
I considered writing the game with a specific setting at first, but decided against it simply because 24 hours aren't enough to describe anything like it sufficiently - so I decided to focus on game mechanics first. Now, with no time constraints, I can develop the idea as much as I please. Coincidentally, while writing King Rat, I saw a movie (yeah, I'm such a nerd that I do stuff on my PC and watch TV simultaneously) called "Wielki Wyscig" ("The Great Race" or some such - can't find it on imdb.com) which featured an upstart ZSMP member (Zwiazek Socjalistycznej Mlodziezy Polskiej - Polish Socialist Youth Union) so ambitious and manipulative that I kept muttering "I want my King Rats to be just like this guy" (you should be able to catch that movie overseas on TV Polonia).
In order to set the game during that period, I'd have to decide when exactly (the way the "one and only" political party operated varied throught its existence). I believe that either the period right after WWII, still in Stalin's lifetime (although it would have a hard-set Exouds - i. e. Stalin's death) or the one right after (during heavy-duty destalinization) would be best.
I also considered setting King Rat in Poland during WWII, but I guess nobody'd want to play a person evil enough to blackmail Jews hiding from the occupying forces. Although getting players to face dillemas similar to those of Oscar Schindler would be a blast. Maybe this could be pulled off, too. I'll think it over some more.
It's possible that I'm simpoly not clear about how resolution occurs. At the moment, it looks to like "freedom to narrate" based on pure bidding. If that's correct, then my usual criticisms of bidding-based drama apply. One of those criticisms is exploitation of other players via "spoiler" and "counter-punching" tactics, which means minimizing your own turns because they make you a target, and disrupting and pirating the opportunities afforded by participating in others' turns. In this case, it seems like spending to complicate is more fun than bidding to narrate.
Good point. I tried to make resources something more than a bidding currency, and that's why I included the possiblity of complication. A quick and dirty solution would be leaving out the possiblity of gaining everything for yourself in scenes narrated by other players (making it possible only in your own scenes). The "make players miserable for not making others miserable" part is way over the top, and it shouldn't be there in the first place. And, well, complicating other players' scenes shouldn't be that easy (still mighty fun, though) - it not only requires spending resources and such, but also narrating them into the scene in a way that actually complicates scene-holder's life. I understand that it isn't stated clearly enough in the text, but that's mostly due to the lack of examples. Lack of examples (and good old tables) was the main qualm I had right after writing King Rat (not enough time to make them).
The values of resources should become clear in playtest, but I'm willing to believe that starting personal resources as they are now (4 times the number of players) should restrain players from complicating too much (because of the risk of failing as a King Rat).
I'm also not very sure about GM revision of Global Resources. In fact, what exactly is the GM's role during play? Referee? Banker? Resource manager? Director who provides relevant overall contexts for conflicts? In some ways, play seems like it would be somewhat InSpectres-like, with the GM working mainly from player-generated content, doing little else than providing Color, tracking group-based points, and providing the minimum information to start new scenes.
Yeah, there should be a "What the GM does" section included (the information is too scattered). Basically, GM plays the role of the whole environment. It is up to GM to decide what effect players' actions and decisions may have on the world they live in (and then present them in the Interludes). Also, it's up to GM to decide whether the scene-holder achieved his goal in a scene, assign Global Resources to players and control non-royal family Rats in any scene (I'd like to add a rule that allows the scene-holder to take control over any non-royal family Rat in a scene - all in all, narration rights require further deliberation and hardcore playtesting).
I agree that the endgame is weak and requires serious overhaul. I'll try making The King, while still powerful, susceptible to other King Rats' plotting and overall Hatred.
Currently I'd like to stress the Friend/Enemy and Hatred aspects of the game more. I want the game to give players the opportunity to, as you put it, "push the ethical quandaries to the maximal possible tension" (maybe the WWII setting would reinforce this better than the post-WWII one). What I want to achieve is something similar to what I felt when reading Joseph Heller's "Catch 22" - loads of fun first, a kick in the face for having so much fun afterwards, and an ending that dosen't let you down - combined with the issues of survival, ethics and friendship/hatred from Clavell's "King Rat" spiced up with some power-struggling (Orwellian "because I can"). Ambitious, isn't it? For now I'll be busy fine-tuning mechanics and overall structure of the game to serve these goals better.
Right now the system may seem more like a strategy game, but that's only because it's a 24 hour pre-alpha-whatever.
On 10/6/2005 at 7:14pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Re: [King Rat] Ronnies feedback
My preference, if it matters: right after Stalin dies. It seems to me that "King Rat" conflicts occur most powerfully during times of chaos which look like times of order.
I'm looking forward to seeing this developed further!
Best,
Ron
On 10/6/2005 at 9:29pm, Malcolm wrote:
RE: Re: [King Rat] Ronnies feedback
My first recommendation is a specific, stronger setting, perhaps even one that's close to home, Przemyslaw. The Soviet occupation of Poland following WWII comes to mind. I suggest geting political, as well as educational for those of us who probably need it. Your commitment to that material will inspire the reader. And besides, in such a setting, any any surreal elements would fit right in; they show up in the relevant literature all the time.
I'd heartily agree with this. I found the game concept very engaging, but I would loved to have seen a specific setting attached to the concept. As a personal choice, I would have appended something on the pre or post WW2 era Gulag, perhaps setting the game (initially) in one of the Kolyma camps or similar. However, I must admit that this choice is very much based upon personal preference and knowledge, not everyone would be familiar with the Gulag (although such a setting would give excellent opportunity for a blend of politics, crime, state brutality and pure survival). The game concept is strong because it reaches into some very dark areas, particularly when dealing with things like POW/prison/Gulag camps. Admittedly, things such as this can be sensitive and I for one would always attempt to establish player feelings on particular topics prior to play.
I look forward to seeing more of King Rat in the future.
Cheers
Malcolm
On 10/7/2005 at 3:15pm, PrzeSzkoda wrote:
RE: Re: [King Rat] Ronnies feedback
Thanks for the input, Malcolm.
I do not know how specific the setting should be - a time period, a place or something different whatsoever. Choosing a specific place would seem too restricting, though (especially since the setting is going to be based on historical data). I believe that describing several aspects of a given time period in detail would be the best solution (given the fact that King Rat-esque conflicts don't occur solely in prison camps). That would give the opportunity for an interweaving politics/camps/etc. structure to arise. Maybe it would even allow players to take the roles of both "political" and "isolated" King Rats, with different goals and scope. More food for my already bloated thought.
One thing for sure - the game will be set in Poland and surrounding areas (maybe including Gulags, too). Simply, Poland's history is close to my heart and, well, it's Poland's history that I know best.
If you have any other suggestions, feel free to write them here. In the meantime, I'll think about the setting some more. Whenever I come to any useful conclusions, I'll set up a brand new topic desribing my train of thought.
On 10/11/2005 at 9:35am, Malcolm wrote:
RE: Re: [King Rat] Ronnies feedback
Przemyslaw wrote:
Thanks for the input, Malcolm.
I do not know how specific the setting should be - a time period, a place or something different whatsoever. Choosing a specific place would seem too restricting, though (especially since the setting is going to be based on historical data). I believe that describing several aspects of a given time period in detail would be the best solution (given the fact that King Rat-esque conflicts don't occur solely in prison camps). That would give the opportunity for an interweaving politics/camps/etc. structure to arise. Maybe it would even allow players to take the roles of both "political" and "isolated" King Rats, with different goals and scope. More food for my already bloated thought.
That seems an emminently sensible thought, giving broad-brush information and allowing the GM/players to very much weave their own setting from those threads. The idea of allowing players a 'political' and 'isolated' role is interesting. How would you see this being factored into the game during play?
One thing for sure - the game will be set in Poland and surrounding areas (maybe including Gulags, too). Simply, Poland's history is close to my heart and, well, it's Poland's history that I know best.
Again, very sensible. I can see 'King Rat' being very easily transferrable (as your precis to the game makes plain).
If you have any other suggestions, feel free to write them here. In the meantime, I'll think about the setting some more. Whenever I come to any useful conclusions, I'll set up a brand new topic desribing my train of thought.
Just one thought that I had related to resources: is there any particular need to divide wealth and contraband into two? In many of the situations where a King Rat game might take place, these two resources would be one in the same. So, in a certain place (a particularly restrictive prison?), cigarettes may be both the main form of currency, but also banned by the authorities, thus making them both wealth and contraband.
Cheers
Malcolm
On 10/11/2005 at 9:28pm, PrzeSzkoda wrote:
RE: Re: [King Rat] Ronnies feedback
The idea of allowing players a 'political' and 'isolated' role is interesting. How would you see this being factored into the game during play?
By giving each player the choice to play either as a 'political' or an 'isolated' King Rat and, in the process of the game, showing how each environment affects the other (i.e. what is the fallout of 'political' King Rats' decisions on the situation of those 'isolated' and vice versa). I do not know how this would work in practice - it begs for playtest.
Just one thought that I had related to resources: is there any particular need to divide wealth and contraband into two? In many of the situations where a King Rat game might take place, these two resources would be one in the same. So, in a certain place (a particularly restrictive prison?), cigarettes may be both the main form of currency, but also banned by the authorities, thus making them both wealth and contraband.
Good point. It may work differently for different environments - for those isolated it may be illegal, but for those "free" it can be easily accessible (thus becoming Wealth), with other things being illegal (like banned books or information one could be killed for having - then again, contraband wouldn't be the best term for describing this resource; further thinking required). Maybe contraband could become a sub-resource of wealth (one that requires spending more points in order to be intorduced)?
Thanks for showing interest in the game,
PSz
On 10/13/2005 at 10:33pm, Malcolm wrote:
RE: Re: [King Rat] Ronnies feedback
Przemyslaw wrote:
By giving each player the choice to play either as a 'political' or an 'isolated' King Rat and, in the process of the game, showing how each environment affects the other (i.e. what is the fallout of 'political' King Rats' decisions on the situation of those 'isolated' and vice versa). I do not know how this would work in practice - it begs for playtest.
Indeed it does! I think I'll try and find an opportunity to run King Rat at some point in the near future and hopefully give you some usable feedback based upon that.
Good point. It may work differently for different environments - for those isolated it may be illegal, but for those "free" it can be easily accessible (thus becoming Wealth), with other things being illegal (like banned books or information one could be killed for having - then again, contraband wouldn't be the best term for describing this resource; further thinking required). Maybe contraband could become a sub-resource of wealth (one that requires spending more points in order to be intorduced)?
That might not be a bad way of doing things, as wealth could be contraband and vice-versa. Having contraband as a sub-set of wealth (particularly in certain environments) might be the best way of handling this. Again, I think things like this might be thrown into sharper focus during a playtest session, so I'll try to throw one together and see how it runs.
Thanks for showing interest in the game,
PSz
No worries.
Cheers
Malcolm
On 10/14/2005 at 5:58am, PrzeSzkoda wrote:
RE: Re: [King Rat] Ronnies feedback
Indeed it does! I think I'll try and find an opportunity to run King Rat at some point in the near future and hopefully give you some usable feedback based upon that.
Great! I'm planning to release a cleaned-up, revised version of the core rules sometime soon while trying to gather a playtest group of my own. Stay tuned.