So about my Ronnies entry, Xochitlcozamalotl ...

I knew when I submitted it that it was missing some important stuff.  As it sits it is primarily a bidding contest with some roleplaying hand-waved into it.  My intention was to find some interesting ways to tie the roleplaying bits to the bidding bits, but there was that whole 24 hour thing...

Currently I'm thinking of some ritual structure (*cough* Polaris *cough*) as well as tying both the bidding and the roleplaying to external events in Anahuac, the last of which will be either the return of Quetzalcoatl (a player character!) or the arrival of Cortez. 

http://www.1km1kt.net/rpg/Xochitlcozamalotl.php

As always I'd value your input, particularly if some elegant narrative-trick-macautl strikes you right between the eyes. 

--Jason

PS:  http://www.meekmok.com/sassy/games/xochitlcozamalotl/xochitlcozamalotl.mp3

Jason, is there any chance of an example of play? Perhaps it's just me, but I can't quite get my head around how it'll play out.

Like I say: I like the setting a lot; I very much like the idea of keeping the brides secret, so that you have to squeeze them subtly into your story; and it generally sounds like a lot of fun. But I'm still not quite sure what sort of things to narrate.

Graham

EXAMPLE OF PLAY

Jason, Steve, Joel, and Lisa are playing a game of Xochitlcozamalotl. 

Jason is TLALOC.  He has secretly chosen FLOWER FEATHER as his bride.  He has set his Majesty to 8 and his Beauty to 8.

Lisa is SMOKING MIRROR.  He has chosen SKIRT OF SERPENTS as his bride.  He has set his Majesty to 12 and his Beauty to 4. 

Joel is HUMMINGBIRD OF THE SOUTH. 
Steve is FEATHERED SNAKE. 

The game is underway. 

Jason, as TLALOC, has already won THE FLAYED ONE (Majesty 4, Beauty 4) as a first ally.  With his ally, the total number of flowers in his Majesty pile is 8+4, or 12.  His Beauty pile also contains 12. 

Lisa, as SMOKING MIRROR, has already won the FOUR HUNDRED RABBITS (Majesty 4, Beauty 0) as a first ally.  Her total Majesty is 16 and her total Beauty is 4. 

Joel, as HUMMINGBIRD, is the middle-man.  "Okay," he says, reviewing the remaining non-player characters, "Let's set a scene concerning Mayahuel."  Joel describes the beautiful maiden wistfully dropping pebbles into a sacrificial pool far from the party. 

Jason really wants to win Mayahuel, because of her connection to Flower Feather's brother, Five Flowers.  His plan is to use Mayahuel's connection to win Five Flowers when he comes up, and then Five Flowers - along with his own connection - to win Flower Feather. Since Mayahuel is a major Goddess, he figures Steve and Lisa will bid high for her as well.  He puts two flowers from each of his piles into his hand, for a bid of 4. 

When the three players release their flowers, Lisa bids 5, Jason bids 4, and Steve also bids 4.  "A tie," Joel says, "As middle-man, I choose Jason."

Steve assumes the role of watcher as a scene plays out.  Joel plays Mayahuel as mournful and remote, longing for her days as a human princess in Anahuac.  Jason, as Tlaloc, tries to cheer her up with some good-natured clowning.  Lisa, as Smoking Mirror, narrates arriving with a huge crowd of rabbits - who are Mayahuel's children.  By narrating in this connection, Lisa gets an extra flower to bid, which she grabs from the common pile.

It is pretty obvious to both players that this is a conflict about beauty, based on Joel's portrayal of Mayahuel.  Jason secretly bids 4 Beauty and 1 Majesty (just to be safe).  Lisa also bids 4 Beauty, but adds her connection bonus flower to that hand, for a total of 5.  She bids no Majesty.

Both players hold out their hands, flowers enclosed.  "It's Beauty," Joel says, and Jason and Lisa let their right-hand petals fall.  Lisa wins, and Joel describes Mayahuel's positive reaction to his overtures, her heart overwhelmed by maternal love.

Lisa immediately adds Mayahuel as an ally, and adds her 2 majesty and 6 beauty to her piles. 

"That was great," says Steve.  "I liked the introduction of the rabbits, but the simple beauty of the scene you framed wins the watcher's flower, Joel."

Play then proceeds to the next middle-man, who is the player to Joel's left. 

I totally missed the bit about being able to narrate in connections. That is cool, but also seems problematic, since a player who is intent on victory could easily narrate just about anything in. Of course it's subject to the middle-man's will, but who knows where a single successful application of this cold lead the game.

The real difficulty is that the setting is very unique, unfamiliar to most potential players, and could easily leave people choking on their turn to narrate. Your description of play is very dependent on all players having a deep understanding of the entire web of connections.

The watcher seems to have a very modest effect on play. Perhaps bidding to enter the contest is unnecessary? Or alternately, the watcher gets his flowers back from that bid?

Or you could make it a little trickier, with vaguer connections which can be linked through pure narration. Or secret connections placed in envelopes that the watcher can judge the applicability of. Or perhaps the watcher decides whether the contest is based on beauty or majesty. Something to make the process less formal, more role-playing based, and less of an experience of paying for the privilege of losing.

I'm a little unclear what ritual sructure would add to the design. As I see it ritual structure is meant to draw you into the dream, but in this case I fear that it might eject you completely. I mean, I can see how you might use key phrases to declare connections, introduce scenes, and have the watcher pass out the goods. But in a game that says to me 'light entertainment over drinks on a beautiful afternoon', it smacks of pretentiousness.

Thanks, Tony. 

The connections are very explicit and limited - each character has a short list.  These are the only ones that have a mechanical effect.

I think if I move forward with this, it will include a lot of bits of color that can be used to spur narration and interaction, like "location - sacrificial pool".  Maybe a cheat sheet or something, or some cultural/religious background yanked from wikipedia. 

The watcher is the odd man out in a four person game, and I wanted to keep that player involved.  I'm thinking the award he gives ought to come from the common pool rather than his personal stash, given the evolving flower economy. 

The idea of the watcher deciding which category the conflict falls into is excellent!  I'm going to use that.  That really ups the narrative ante for players, who will want to drive it in a particular direction based on what is in their hands.  It makes that role as important as the middle-man. 

As for ritual, I'm just in love with Polaris, I guess.  I see the power and potential and I'd like to play with it.  Whether this is the right design for those techniques remains to be seen.  I appreciate your comments.

--Jason

This is deeply neat. I'd like to see the steaming piles of freshly ripped out hearts in your next example of play, though, just for contrast -- that is going to be the hard part to work into play while still maintaining sympathy with the characters.

Thought: Could there also be a list of specified Locations with specific mechanical effects, just as with the lesser deities? That adds exponentially more combinations of story elements: Instead of a scene centering on one of X deities, it would center on one of X deities in one of Y locations.

Yes, that is definitely possible, and part of me was edging in that direction by adding individuals and communities from the "real world" of Anahuac - the Emperor, Tenochtitlan, the Tlaxcalan barbarians, etc.  I think it's cool that you vie for alliance with these just like you vie for alliance with lesser gods. 

I would definately jump at a chance to play this game.  I actually like how it requires you to get more familiar with something that is (to most of us) so foreign.

I find that the Watcher's reward of just one flower could be a little small if the economy of the game gets larger.  Could there be some way of scaling the reward as play progresses?  Perhaps have it like a "blind bet" in game of tournament Texas Hold'em, where every so often the reward gets larger?  In Hold'em, the blind bet sort of sets a pace for the economy of the game, and perhaps the watcher's reward could do the same for Xochitlcozamalotl.  Alternatively, you could make the reward a fraction of the flowers in play, or a fraction of the watcher's flowers.  I think you should stick with having the Watcher's reward coming from the Watcher's flowers.  It seems like more of a gift that way, and also sticks with the overall theme of sacrifice.

-Steve

In Xochitlcozamalotl, I have to push the Xochitlcopramalotl.

Har, har. 

I don't know card games but I recognize there is a currency problem - what happens when you run out of flowers?  As written it can easily happen, so I appreciate your comments. 

If I tie play to events, they could get "re-charged" in some way.  Special NPCs could also carry rewards for all players in various degrees,  not just the winner of the bid. 

The watcher's gift coming from his own stash is thematically cool, but he's also just gotten his ass whipped in a bidding war, which makes it sorta sting.  Maybe the bid loser of the three keeps his flowers?  Would that work?

Thanks,

Jason

Maybe the flowers from the Watcher's failed bid are what he has to award? This'd be an exception to the "flowers once fallen are fallen forever" rule, though, which is kinda poetic.

Hey Jason,

Very evocative game you've got brewing. In terms of connecting narration and bidding I'd consider borrowing from PTA, and somehow codifying the types of scenes that will be set. Also, it seems you're already considering it, but I really like the idea of a set timeline that occurs during play to guide the setting of scenes. You definitely need something to give people a better idea of the gameplay, especially given the example you list here. I like it a lot, but I don't think that readily follows from the text at the moment. Either more structure, more examples, or... well, something else needs to fit in there to give people a notion of what to do.

-Tim

I've made some changes for the moment - watcher decides the nature of the conflict (Beauty or Majesty) and retains his failed bid, from which the gift is offered. 

I'm thinking hard on introducing thematic elements that can be used somehow - objects, place and people that pop up to help frame scenes, like "The Five Useless Days" or a quetzal bird or a skull-rack. 

I think I'll cool it until I get some Ronnies feedback.  This has been a good project to keep me occupied while I await my Roach layout guy.  Thanks for all your comments and suggestions!

--Jason

As expected, smote by Ron.  I think this thread has helped push Xochitlcozamalotl pretty far from the initial submission, which is cheerful.  I'll keep working on it, but the Roach cards have returned, so it will be on the back burner for a while. 

--Jason

Well, not exactly smote.

For me, the fictional background is a very strong aspect of this game. That whole mythology is wonderful, and very twisted, and I haven't seen it used before. That's the main thing that makes me want to play this game.

You mentioned ritual in an earlier post. Now, for me, the ritual part is another very strong factor in this game. I love the flowers and I love the instructions to lie around on easy chairs (I'm paraphrasing from memory). Letting the flowers fall is a very powerful image. Just beautiful.

(Although, actually, I've got to say that my first thought on reading this bit was: play it outside? Wouldn't the piles of flowers blow away? But that's a silly quibble.)

I think the Shab-al-Hiri Roach has a stronger gamey aspect to it. Just reading the descriptions of the cards makes me want to play the Roach game, and the cleverest thing about that game is how all the card-drawing and dice-rolling connects with narration. If you carry on developing this game, I'd love to see more of a game feel to it. And perhaps some randomness in there too.

I'm not exactly sure how. Perhaps...as a random thought...you could steal the "choose a hand" idea from Dirty F**king Freaks? Get the players to hold a number of flowers in each hand, with each hand representing Majesty and Beauty, but then the opposite player gets to choose a hand. When both players have chosen, then the player with the most flowers in the chosen hand starts to narrate the scene, and they must use either Majesty or Beauty in the way they narrate, according to which hand was chosen.

Or something. But some randomness or some competition in there would be nice.

I hope some of that helps. Good luck with the Roach. Don't swallow it, bad idea, short term solution.

Graham

Hey Jason,

Jason wrote:
As expected, smote by Ron.  I think this thread has helped push Xochitlcozamalotl pretty far from the initial submission, which is cheerful.  I'll keep working on it, but the Roach cards have returned, so it will be on the back burner for a while. 

Thanks guys, I really like Xochitlcozamalotl and will definitely develop it further.  In fact, I found and scanned my future illustrations for it today, in Charnay Desire's "The Ancient Cities of the New World" from 1888.  But the Roach demands - DEMANDS - my attention.  Right now I'm editing the Commands so they'll all fit on my cards.  It's going to be unbelievably awesome. 

--Jason

Hello,

Official feedback thread!

This went into the "Color but no Center" category. The characters are curiously colorless despite their florid descriptions, in that they seem to have no priorities other than their godhood ... which seems very different from any gods in any pantheon I know about. Without a character with a special, personal interest in what's happening (no issue, in PTA terms), then there's no Situation, just Setting. Like in the especially bland episodes of modern Star Trek - there goes so-and-so, behaving like himself, and so what?

Mechanically, this is reflected in my perception that the Majesty/Beauty distinction seems meaningless in play - you have to guess what the other guy "means?" Why would he mean one or the other anyway? What's to stop him from just saying the one you didn't say? I'm not really seeing what's opposed between majesty and beauty as concepts - note, not how they're "different," but why they are opposed.

Also mechanically, most bidding games worry me a bit, as they are prone to success spirals: the more you get, the more you can bid. Which rings a death knell for the Gamist, and as written, that's the context for play. How might a reversal occur? Or to bring it back to the SIS deficiency, who cares who gets which wife?

I think the Ronnies entry might serve as a fine signpost for discussion, much as Chalk Outlines was - exactly the right design to point out, "This isn't quite gonna fly."

So what's next? So far, this thread's offered some ideas, and I'd never underestimate the Roach-meister. So I'll look forward to what might come next.

Best,
Ron

Thanks Ron, that's good feedback and I appreciate it. 

I've already implemented some of the suggestions in this thread, but there are some definite areas that need work if this game is going to get off the ground.

Again, thanks!

--Jason