There's a discussion about the variance between the details of the town that the GM creates for a game of Dogs in the Vineyard and how the players decide to hand out judgment during the game. Reading and responding to it got me curious about something:

If/when you've run a Dogs in the Vineyard game, have any of your players ask afterward, "Can we have a look at your town sheet and see how far off we were in our judgment?"

If so, have you shown them?

And, again, if so, how did that come out?

IMAGinES wrote:
There's a discussion about the variance between the details of the town that the GM creates for a game of Dogs in the Vineyard and how the players decide to hand out judgment during the game. Reading and responding to it got me curious about something:

If/when you've run a Dogs in the Vineyard game, have any of your players ask afterward, "Can we have a look at your town sheet and see how far off we were in our judgment?"

If so, have you shown them?

And, again, if so, how did that come out?

I did this once.

My players looked at the town for a few moments, showed it to each other, and then one said:

"Damn this town was boring before we @#%&ed it all up."

Bastards. I'll never show them my notes again.

P.S. Other than the above, my only point is: What Paka Said.

WWPD is, after all, my gaming motto.

Reading out the town and/or passing it around the players afterwards was common in my sessions.  I don't think we quite did it every time, but following from Pride through to Judgement seemed a non-trivial part of Reflection to us.

James

My experience is that when you've given them (in-character) all of the information for the town, it's sometimes very useful to inform players (out-of-character) that they've got everything.  Otherwise they'll keep rooting, from long-standing patterns of play that say that when you know everything the GM knows, the GMs preferred, clean, elegant solution will become clear.

Sometimes you just have to smack 'em upside the head and say "Okay guys, you've had your fun uncovering everything.  Everything there is to know, you now know.  A clean, elegant solution is not evident, because there isn't one.  Deal with it."

I hadn't thought of printing out copies of the town sheet, but I wonder what would happen if I just handed them out to the players at that point.  Would it prejudice them toward seeing the Pride as the important sin and everything else as less important?  Would it make them feel like they hadn't done their job if they didn't punish every level of the hierarchy of sin?  I may just have to try that ....

I think handing them the sheet mid-game could be a little deprotagonizing.  The town isn't really about what you wrote down, it's about what they decide it is about.  Those two things can differ powerfully, at which point your notes in public are at best a distraction and at worst a monkey wrench.  As a quaint, post-game historical document, I'm all for it, though.

--Jason

If after the game, just to see how you made the town up I'd show them the sheet but I'd never do so during the game.

The sheet doesn't have a right answer.  There is no right answer from the GM.  The only right answer is what the Dogs decide to do about it all.

Hm.

I'd like to see Vincent respond to this thread.

I THINK he'd answer that, yes, there IS a right answer from the GM, with respect to how the town IS.  It's only after the town is handed over to the PC's that they get a say in how it WILL BE.

Hi, guys,

Apologies for any confusion - The intent was definitely that the GM only shows th eplayers the sheet after the game wraps, not during the game. I think thsi stems from a mis-spelling in my question; it should be:

If/when you've run a Dogs in the Vineyard game, have any of your players asked afterward, "Can we have a look at your town sheet and see how far off we were in our judgment?"

Note, though, the inclusion of afterward, not during.

And also, this is just idle curiosity here, nothing questioning how a game of Dogs in the Vineyard is/was/should be run.

IMAGEineS (What's your real name?), it doesn't matter. If the Steward shot somebody who was causin' wrong in the town, then blamed it on his partner in crime, the players should know that by half an hour in. If they haven't figured it out, it's because you're hiding the information, which is against the rules.

Yeah, I know; all of the actual play reports I've read show the players figuring out what's going on with little trouble.

I guess I was just curious. No worries!

glyphmonkey wrote:
(What's your real name?)

IMAGinES wrote:

glyphmonkey wrote:
(What's your real name?)

Rob, by the way.

You too, Glyphmonkey.

And on that note, I'd say this thread is pretty much wrapped up, eh?

IMAGinES wrote:
And on that note, I'd say this thread is pretty much wrapped up, eh?

Pôl wrote:
I just realized that the players and the GM should come to a consensus about the post-play reveal. If I, as a GM, would rather not reveal the original town creation to the players after the game, then that's something I should discuss with the players. If I really want to show them the goods, on the other hand, then that should be discussed, too.

Pôl wrote:
I know that personally, I'd prefer not to do a post-play reveal. The town on the sheet isn't the real town. The real town is the one that the players created together, through play. I never want the players to think, "oh, what we thought was important in the town wasn't on the sheet at all. I guess we played it wrong."

Pôl wrote:
But I could go the other way, too. If the players were really into seeing my notes - "hey, what started that whole mess, anyway?" - then I'd gladly show them.

Forgot to mention:

Brand_Robins wrote:
I did this once.

Brand_Robins wrote:
My players looked at the town for a few moments, showed it to each other, and then one said:

"Damn this town was boring before we @#%&ed it all up."

Bastards. I'll never show them my notes again.