hey guys, i finally got a really great and thoughtful review for Empire of Satanis.  and my Lulu numbers have budged a grand total of 3 over the whole week (normally i sell one copy every week or so).  so obviously, good reviews alone are not enough.  i don't make any money, i'm just trying to spread my vision.  thank Satanis, i don't need to make a living with this!  ;)

anyways, are there no-cost promotional things besides posting regularly on forums etc. to get people interested?  if there's something cheap and easy i've overlooked, please let me know.  maybe my indie rpg numbers are comparable to everyone elses, i don't know?

and yes, there are drawbacks to my game such as the iffy layout and no interior art.  although, on the plus side people really do like the game!  i know there has to be rpgs with crappier production values and aesthetics selling much better than EoS.  is it all do to $$$ poured into advertising?

thanks, D

p.s. here's the super review posted on rpg.net:  http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11626.phtml

http://www.CultofCthulhu.net

Hi Darrick,

Quick point: paid advertising does not help. I want to get that clear as soon as possible.

What really sells games, on-line, is your presence. You have to be a nice guy.

1. You have to thank folks for their opinions even when they are wrong, and you have to lay down the law to people when they misunderstand something so others won't think you're a pushover. And you have to know which one to do with which people.

Similarly, you must learn never, ever, ever, to defend your game against unreasonable attacks. At most, clarify the point, but only to people who are being reasonable in the first place.

2. Get the website into enough shape that it's fun to browse around, or offers interesting stuff to download or participate in.

3. Start being mutualistic toward other people's games, either here or at other websites.

4. Post about actual play and practice point #1 above to your very best ability.

Best,
Ron

I have a few comments on potential reasons.

First up, if I go to google and search for empire of satanis, I get a link up to http://www.cultofcthulhu.net/Empire%20of%20Satanis.pdf which appears to be the full text of your game? It's possible those who are looking for your game are simply downloading from here rather than going through Lulu.

Secondly, the web page at http://www.cultofcthulhu.net/satanis-1a.htm would, were I a customer interested in your game, put me off pretty much instantly with the naked tentacle chicks. If I got past that and clicked through to the EoS content 1 I'm faced with a big chunk of unformatted, amateur looking white on black text which starts out with a "Yo". That kind of presentation is not going to win you any friends. The EoS content 2 link contains better text, that is both more accessible and readable if still badly formatted. I'd consider removing the naked tentacle chicks, spending a few minutes formatting up the text and labelling the links better. I expected to find short previews under the links not extended reviews/play reports. Nowhere on your site is there any punchy, short "this is what EoS is" or "why you should play EoS" text.

Yeah, you have to consider your content, too. I think it's more than possible that the nature of the game has a pretty limited audience. As anecdotal evidence, I personally have no interest whatsoever in playing the game, and I've looked at it pretty closely. I'm not only not interested in it, but actually repulsed. I'm just now trying to figure out how much money one would have to pay me to actually play a session...

It had to occur to you that your game would get somewhat this reception, didn't it? That is, I could write an absolutely brilliant system that perfectly supported play about eating toe jam, but I don't suppose it would sell well. I'm not saying you don't have a market for your game. I'm saying it just might be very small.

Mike

thanks for reminding us of those indie rpg cardinal virtues Ron.  i believe there's a place for all of us at the gigantic table of gaming.

if tentacled girls turn you off, then Empire of Satanis is definitely not the game for you.  much of the game is, or has the potential to be, a XXX version of Call of Cthulhu. 

yeah, i've been meaning to polish some of the supplementary material, it does look pretty rough.  i know nothing about webdesign, so i pay a guy $80 an hour to make changes for me.  this cruel reality often discourages me from updating and improving.  however, i have plans to include newer and cleaner looking (but still highly immoral) material in the near future.

i thought about the majority of people downloading the pdf off the site itself after i posted my query, so thanks for that idea. 

hmmm, a game about eating toe jam... wait, i'm getting an idea!  haha.

actually, i take your revulsion as a huge compliment.  may Satanis bless you, sir.

darrick
http://www.CultofCthulhu.net

p.s.  EoS is being translated into German, can't wait to hear what they think!

#1 - Nice Anton LeVey look you have going on in that pic.

#2 - Ron is dead on right. Also: you're selling a pervy game, seek pervy venues to promote it. Last but not least, it takes time. Most people do not know who you are (or care). The trick is to make them know you. Then, make them love you. Then, cut off their heads and keep their parts in your freezer.

#3 - Speaking of horror and tentacles, you are getting raped if you're paying $80 an hour for that site design. Hell, I'd make you a decent website for half that amount. I'm sure one of the helpful gnomes here on the Forge would help you make something truly special.

Ron wrote:
Quick point: paid advertising does not help. I want to get that clear as soon as possible.

chadu wrote:
In my expericence, I've found that targeted and limited paid advertising can help move copies of games. I've run a couple ad campaigns that have directly translated anywhere from 3 to 20 sales per ad run. Note that the bigger sales numbers are front-loaded, so there are diminishing returns. (This has been move evident with Truth & Justice than with Dead Inside.)

Jared wrote:
How much did you pay for the ad(s)? In my experience, advertising is really really great...for the person selling ad space.

One of the best places to advertise you games in my experience is in your sig line, and make sure you are a profilic and helpful poster on the forums you subscribe to.

Oops

Image removed from Sig

... Unless of course the forum has a strick no images in sigs rule ;-)

But on other forums they can be great

Darrick, I see some interesting stuff happening in your game. I see a couple of rules pointing in a good direction — the rules about sharing narration and story direction, for instance — but I see the need for a lot of refinement. That said, you'll fit in just great around here.

Oh, and $80 for web design... I'm a <a href=http://www.joshuanewmandesign.com/>professional graphic designer and I don't charge that much. And I charge a lot. I also do book design, so when your book's ready to fly, we can talk. I'm also not alone in this: there are several others of like skills here on the Forge who would be willing to work with you.

As Mike points out, though, your content is deliberately repellant. That makes it a hard sell outside of the Cthulhu Sex crowd. That's good, insofar as you know you your target market is, and I'd guess it would be worth your while to sell to it. Lulu is almost certainly the way to go for that kind of thing (and there are folks here who use other POD services and like them, too).

The biggest thing, though, is to remember Punk: it came into existence because some smart people recognized a niche, and then the tape and zine trading began. It's community that makes niche stuff fly.

If your friends dig your game, get them out talking it up, too. Carefully, deliberately.

Welcome to the Forge, Darrick!

Oh, hey, and you too, ukg! Do you have a real name?

glyphmonkey wrote:
Oh, hey, and you too, ukg! Do you have a real name?

Hello,

Let's get this discussion back on topic, or close it.

Darrick, do you have any other points or questions that you'd like to raise about this topic?

Best,
ron

thanks for the compliments and suggestion about seeking that niche audience, Jared.  i definitely agree with that.  i wish more pervy Satanism freaks knew about, let alone played, roleplaying games.  although, it's not a concrete wall, just an obstacle. 

i appreciate the feedback on my site's outdated gaming content.  it was looking pretty flimsy and needed something fresh.  so i did get off my butt and put some new, and fancy-lookin' PDF's up for Empire of Satanis:  http://www.CultofCthulhu.net

yeah, the webdesign price was $60 for a long time and just went up to $80.  these guys are fast though, so an hour of work for one designer might only take them 30 min.  but i will consider it, thanks for the offer. 

in very recent news, i just had what can only be described as a trainwreck nightmare of a "review" on rpg.net, and an interesting phenomenon has occured!  i got less hits but more sales than i did with the great review.  at first i thought it was due to harsh negativity drew onlookers.  perhaps it was because i really made my presence known Aleistar Crowley or Anton LaVey style on the forum thread attached to that review.  very over-the-top, but then so was that guy's opinion of EoS.

here's the review if you guys haven't seen it:  http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11656.phtml

also... banner-exchanges anyone?  the banners/links i currently have do not reciprocate, :( so i'm going to replace them in about a month.  thanks again for everyone's thoughts.

Darrick Dishaw
http://www.CultofCthulhu.net

You've just tapped into the secret of RPG.net.

Your site certainly looks better than it did. That's a good start.

Hi Darrick,

There you go! The real value of a review is permitting you the opportunity to show either (a) gracious appreciation of someone's efforts on your behalf, or (b) dignity and enthusiasm in the face of stupidity. Both of these will generate sales.

Note that ";positive" and "negative" reviews can both be found in (a), so make sure you know which way you want to go with your responses. Seems like you have a good handle on this.

I strongly suggest abandoning banners altogether. Focused, mutual link exchange with sites you really care about is much more productive.

Best,
Ron

Hello,

Then you had to go and blow it, didn't you? ... Damn, Darrick, you seem determined to harm your own success.

Here's the advice I'd give to anyone about reviews and posting on-line.

1. Do not write reviews of your own work.

2. Especially do not write reviews of your own work, then come here and talk about them as if they were independent reviews.

3. Do not post in forums under fake names, pretending you're some guy who likes your game.

4. Do not ever vilify, make fun of, or insult anyone on-line. Not even someone who insults you.

Do you have to take this advice? Nope. You don't have to do anything.

But if you are interested in any sort of commercial success for your game, then I'd suggest it.

Best,
Ron

please ask me before you assume the worst...

the review that i co-wrote on gamewyrd was one of the first notifications after i put EoS on lulu.  i say right in the first sentence that i'm the author and that the whole "review" is just a chance for people to see what this game is about, you know, get the word out there.  since i admit all those things right off the bat, i don't see any harm, deceit, or indecency in what i did.

nor have i ever talked about that review as if it was "real".  i pretty much forgot about my self-review post of EoS right after i did it. 

about the fake post... while i did say that i liked and played EoS (both true), i didn't post such things in order to "drum up business" or become my own cheering section.  by the way, where were you guys?  my main purpose was in trying to find out exactly why people don't like games like mine and SenZar.  it's pretty much the exact same post i did at the Forge, except i had to use a puppet account because i'd been banned from rpg.net

on point 4. we're just going to have to wildly disagree.  if someone insults you once and you ignore it, then cool - you are the bigger man and can let it go without shame.  however, if that someone persists in directly insulting you (which he did), then to my way of thinking, you are obligated to insult him back or else look like some kind of wuss.  this is just my own personal feelings.  i just never back down, never ever ever.  if insulting persists, i always attack them back.  that's just the way i roll, baby.

as others have said about my niche project, commercial success seems unlikely even if i were to follow "the rules".  i could try to change myself or the type of games i love, but i don't want to.

thanks for the email and i appreciate the concern.

by the way, the latest pot-shot review of Empire of Satanis has generated even MORE hits and sales. 

D
http://www.CultofCthulhu.net

darrick wrote:
...  however, if that someone persists in directly insulting you (which he did), then to my way of thinking, you are obligated to insult him back or else look like some kind of wuss. 

that's a darn good point.  but this is how i see it - the vocal minority on rpg.net is nothing but childish (at least in regards to me).  if there was a modicum of maturity or empathy, i would have let the insults go, or try to argue my point.  but those threads are not the "real world" which we live in, places like that are simply 3rd grade recess.  i don't think it's possible to reason with 3rd graders, just play their own game or don't play at all.  i thought about just leaving the playground, but they were talking about my game and i felt i should say something... even if it's only to called them a doodoo head back.

not that i actually wish this to happen, but just for the sake of satisfying my morbid curiosity, i'd love to see someone completely rip something like Sorcerer a new one.  obviously the opinions of this review would be utterly biased and unfounded, but Sorcerer would get the very same treatment that i did.  then everyone started personally attacking poor Ron, his game, and calling him a whiny bitch and a whole lot more.  trying to reason with them, would do no good at all.  you'd either have to ignore everyone berating you for literally thousands of people to read, or fight back like an irate 4th grader in return.  what would you guys do?  as the creator, as a innocent bystander, as someone who likes Sorcerer?  i hope that everyone wouldn't ignore the idiotic crap coming from these guys.  something to think about...
  (by the way, i'm only using Ron and his game Sorcerer because he's so well respected and it's hard for me to imagine something like the above actually happening).

anyways... now that i can't respond to the last 3 pages, it's more of the same (with the exception of Jasper).  so i'm kinda glad i'm out of that thread, but i still feel like giving them a taste of their own medicine. 

if people want to read/buy Empire of Satanis to see the car crash or have fun reading the "worst of the worst" rpg, or even see if my game is as bad as everyone says it is, that's fine by me.  let me be the Jerry Springer of roleplaying games!!!  ;)  better infamous than famous, i say.  especially with a game like mine.

it's 2:30 pm Saturday, and i just checked lulu less than an hour ago.  i sold 6 hard copies of EoS since the review went up yesterday morning.  that is the best business i've done yet.  so i'm glad that i made the call i did.

D
http://www.CultofCthulhu.net

Darrick, man, I gotta thank you for an hour long laugh last night. No small amount of laughing was at other people in those threads, but some was at you, too. You (plural) act like a bunch of 11-year-olds bickering over a typo in the Traveller appendix.

First off, why curse anyone who gives you a bad review? You've seen that they give you sales. That's excellent! Love them! Be grateful!

Now, if you want to really talk about the game itself take it over to Indie Game Design and ask for help. You'll have to answer some difficult questions, and some of them you'll be able to answer easily. Your publicity machine seems to be tipping over and catching fire with entertaining results, but it's unsustainable. You need a good game with good presentation to reach even your niche.

You probably want to check out anyway. There are some really good, critically important essays on game design there. Plus, I've never met a man who didn't like Vincent. Woman, neither.

Yes, my advice is that you leave illogical and stupid challenges unanswered.

Long experience has in fact taught me this, and yes, in regard to Sorcerer, as it happens.

Best,
Ron

Darrick, are you serious? You don't think that Ron and Sorcerer have ever been ripped on RPG.net? Holy cats man, people constantly lay into Ron, The Forge, "Forge Games," Sorcerer, other Adept Press games, etc, etc, etc. It would undoubtedly be worse, too, except for the fact that Ron doesn't respond to them, and we have a general policy here of not responding to attacks (and of trying to refrain from making them on rpg.net outselves).

Are you aware if the term "troll" and what it means?

1. Poster X wants to make you look like a fool.
2. Poster X insults you.
3. You respond in childish kind.
4. Poster X has succeeded in making you look like a fool.

You can continue to take the bait on these, or you can ignore them and they'll go away. Don't feed the trolls! The more you respond, the more they'll keep insulting you. You're encouraging them.

Now, any publicity is good publicity, true. But in the case of looking like a fool, that really doesn't help you sell games in the long run. Who wants to buy a game from a fool? The sales that are generated will be to people with a morbid curiousity like those who purchase SenZar or, more likely Synnibar, to check out the "Plan 9 From Outer Space" of RPGs. Which means that they'll read it a bit, laugh at it (even if it's not really laughable otherwise - they'll be looking for excuses to laugh at it), and then never play it. And play of a game is what spreads it and sells more copies.

Ron's telling you what you can do to make your game an ongoing enterprise. If you want it to just be relegated to the heap of joke games, keep up your habit of replying to the trolls and using dubious methods of generating publicity. Just like these guys: http://www.thegamecrafter.com/de_home

Never heard of them? I'm not surprised.

Mike

Hey Darrick,

I just wanted to chime in as a veteran of some harsh rpg.net flamewars and as a huge fan of rpg.net.

I've made similar mistakes as you and I learned, as Ron and Mike have pointed out, not to ever respond to that level of derision or negativity. I read the thread. Those guys aren't interested discussing your game. They aren't going to change their opinions. And your defense of it, in light of their nonsense, only makes you look worse. Just let the monkeys laugh and point fingers. They'll be forgotten soon enough.

As you said, all the publicity was good for the game -- you got more sales! The hardest part is looking at those reviews in an honest way and deciding whether or not they had some valid criticisms. I had to do the same thing for Burning Wheel, and I even went so far as to THANK the negative reviewers in the revised edition. They really did make the game better.

-Luke

Also, personally, I hope I never see you using your religion to attack anyone again. It's really uncool.