Over here on RPG.Net AndyK pointed out some similarities between DitV's Commencement mechanics and Vampire 1st ed.'s Embrace scene, and it got me thinkin'.  Vampire protagonists (at least in the Anne Rice books) are ... well ... not to put too fine a point on it, they're a judgmental lot, aren't they?  And the old V:tM game was pretty concerned with stability of the social structure, and like that and ... well ...

Isolation:  A monster I am, lest a monster I become, wankety wank wank.  Vampires are isolated by appearance, by nature, by choice (living in the sewers), by power (the Prince doesn't mix with the caitiff), by politics, by being just that much cooler and angstier than mortals.  Rather than being part of society they create reasons why they can never have peers.

Isolation leads to Envy:  Yes, I have riches, power and imortality, but that homeless syphillitic vagabond can watch the sun rise.  Vampires envy mortals all their mortal stuff, they envy other vampires their vampire stuff, they envy the dead, the envy their progeny, they envy their earlier selves.  Rather than focussing on what they have, they focus on what others have that they do not.

Envy leads to Injustice:  All I want to do is roam the night in peace.  Why must they torment me so?  Vampire society has many roles, and an equal number of ways to deprive others of their ability to fulfill those roles.  Bog-standard DitV Injustice.

Injustice leads to Thirst:  I smell the blood and fear ... she wants me to take her, or she wouldn't be running, her heart racing like a delicious, savory trip-hammer, calling to me.  When society ceases to function, vampiric thirst (for blood, for power, for knowledge, for money) rages out of control.

Thirst leads to Perversion.

Perversion leads to Monstrosity.

I'm not sure yet about the Escalation-ladder.

Escalation:

This is problematic, beyond the first level, because what harms humans doesn't harm vampires, and vice versa.  I don't think it should be as explicit as "guns".  instead:

Words
Physicality, focused more on posturing, maneuvering for position, and intimidating displays
Weapons, including guns
Magic (humans with no access to supernatural powers would get no dice when this level is brought in)

The setting idea is intriguing.

On escalation, here's a possible basis for consideration:
1. Talking
2. Physical, Minor Supernatural (usually attacks that usually last no more than a scene - the Hard Stare of a vampire is easily equivalent to a physical attack)
3. Weapons, Drinking Blood, Major Supernatural Attacks that can last longer than a few scenes (Domination)
4. Attacks that can cause Aggravated Damage

And I am so stealing this quote for a vampire in my fantasy game:

TonyLB wrote:
she wants me to take her, or she wouldn't be running, her heart racing like a delicious, savory trip-hammer, calling to me. 

Aggravated damage?

What about an escalation ladder like this?

Normal
Uncanny
Supernatural
Horrifying

That would actually explain those fights in Angel where he goes through half the fight looking normal, then Vamps-Out when things get really rough.

It seems to me like the top of the escalation ladder should be Wooden Stakes.

Vaxalon wrote:
Aggravated damage?

Sydney wrote: So I think Tony's escalation to "horrifying" is onto something; it just doesn't work both ways -- that is, monsters can escalate to "Horrifying" but the human counterpart (at least the good-guy human counterpart) has to be something equal-and-opposite.

Interesting idea.  Here's a thought.  Treat aggravated damage as you would treat Ceremony in DitV: each form has its assigned Fallout dice.  You could also stipulate that all normal weapons inflict Fallout one die-size smaller than usual, so it's very unlikely that a vamp will "die" from normal weapons.  Or anti-vamp weapons inflict Fallout one die-size higher, or something like that.  

Blessed weapons gain a die of some appropriate size?  Sunlight inflicts d10 fallout?  A stake is like a gun, with an extra d4 to represent how tricky it is to use properly?  I dunno.  It could work.

Folks with some kind of Numina (or other vampy know-how) could be treated like the Possessed in DitV, with Viciousness letting their attacks inflict larger die-size Fallout.  All other mortals are just hemoglobin on the hoof, though they can still give the vamp pause if they get lucky enough.

The consequences of getting thoroughly jacked up by Fallout might be different, too.  Dying takes on a different meaning when you're undead, and seeking medical attention just isn't going to cut it.  I could see "feed and rest" as an alternative to "seek medical attention."  And for short-term consequences, leaving the scene for a while could take the form of wandering off to brood poetically about how tragic it is to be immortal and nigh-unstoppable.

Sydney wrote: P.S.: As a Christian, I've long thought that the reason that folklore insists a crucifix, and no other generic "holy symbol" (D&D aside) is particularly upsetting to vampires is that nothing else so emphatically says to a daylight-phobic bloodsucker, "You call that life after death? [shing] Now this is life after death!"

I think "thirst" is not working. It's a defining feature of all Vampires. The loss of control is the real issue. Injustice leads to loss of control.

Also, I think a game about vampires should be about your own thirst as much as the thirst of others. Really, this whole thing seems kind of awkward to me. It's like: The justice part is nice, but what happened to the rest that being a vampire is about? I don't really think this will work very well.

- Frank

Not to get too tangential, but....

dunlaing wrote:

Sydney wrote: P.S.: As a Christian, I've long thought that the reason that folklore insists a crucifix, and no other generic "holy symbol" (D&D aside) is particularly upsetting to vampires is that nothing else so emphatically says to a daylight-phobic bloodsucker, "You call that life after death? [shing] Now this is life after death!"

Really? You don't think the reason is simply that the folk involved were christian and that's the main christian holy symbol?

I think the proposed progression of sins and escalation hierarchy both seem very workable, and would actually be *really neat* in that they actively encourage the grand guignol horrific action which Vampire games promise but don't always deliver. 

The question I have, is that Dogs seems designed around the premise of wandering protagonists who encounter one complicated field of tensions after another.  I'm not sure how you would handle this in Vampire, where traditionally vamps stick around one city for substantial amounts of time, building up their secular and magical power.  How would you use the town creation rules for a setting where the characters remain in the same place for a longer period of time?  Or would you simply find a premise which involves vampires moving from town to town?  If you're running a one-shot, it's not an issue, of course.

I've had an idea kicking around my head for a long time about a vampire game set in Auld Transyvania, with the PC's as junior vampires trying to actually "rule the night" the way they're supposed to in horror movies.  This might be the perfect way to run that game -- the various White Wolf vampire games are definitely not it.

Frank wrote: I think "thirst" is not working. It's a defining feature of all Vampires. The loss of control is the real issue. Injustice leads to loss of control.

Danny_K wrote:
The question I have, is that Dogs seems designed around the premise of wandering protagonists who encounter one complicated field of tensions after another.  I'm not sure how you would handle this in Vampire, where traditionally vamps stick around one city for substantial amounts of time, building up their secular and magical power.  How would you use the town creation rules for a setting where the characters remain in the same place for a longer period of time?  Or would you simply find a premise which involves vampires moving from town to town?  If you're running a one-shot, it's not an issue, of course.

I think I'll go work on a "town" to see how well this hierarchy really works -- if it seems good, I'll post it and maybe even run it.

I thought of another interesting way to address the "one town/multiple town" issue:

It's a staple of vampire fiction that vampires exist a long, long time, and spend a lot of time sleeping.  There are published scenarios that take advantage of this, bringing characters from the 1400's to the present by easy stages.  One could do the same thing with a VoB town -- revisit it fifty years later, with the same characters but a new and different constellation of issues. 

Danny_K wrote: I think I'll go work on a "town" to see how well this hierarchy really works

So the PCs try to expose and put an end to Isolation?