Topic: Pros and Cons of Gaming
Started by: Jo Anne B.
Started on: 4/1/2002
Board: Site Discussion
On 4/1/2002 at 9:04pm, Jo Anne B. wrote:
Pros and Cons of Gaming
I need some help. I have an argument essay on gaming to write. I need to have pros and cons of gaming. I have a limited knowledge on the subject. I only have about 24 hours to write it. Please help me in any way any of you can.
Thank you
Jo Anne
On 4/1/2002 at 9:12pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
Well, for starters.
1) What do you mean by gaming: Gambling, board games, RPGs, Card Games? Comparisons of the above?
2) Who is your audience?
On 4/1/2002 at 9:42pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
Hi there,
I also suggest that you complete the assignment based on your own observations. The best way to do that is to read several of the threads on this forum, as well as those at RPG.net (a general site) or The Escapist (a site about role-playing and society), and decide what issues you'll be discussing as well as your take on it, based on what you see.
In other words, I'm not sure that what we say about the issue is relevant, so much as your observations about what we are saying to one another. The paper should present your opinion, not ours.
Best,
Ron
edited to fix a URL format (twice! damn!)
On 4/1/2002 at 9:46pm, Jo Anne B. wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
I was mostly going to focus on fastasy RPGs, because that is all I am familiar with. I have only been gaming for about a year, maybe year and a half. My audience is college students, the oldest maybe in 40s, youngest about 19-20.
On 4/1/2002 at 10:04pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
Is the essay intended to just enumerate current benefits/problems bandied about in RPGs, or is this to supposed to be your take on such issues? I think we're still fuzzy on what you're looking for.
Also, even if we were to start listing Pro's and Con's, you'd probably get a pretty biased view. I think it's safe to say we're all pretty pro RPGs here. For example, the whole Religion vs Gaming controversy. Most here would just say it's a big bunch of nonsense perpetrated by wacko religious zealots who are badly misinformed.
At least at The Escapist, you may find links to the groups that are against RPGs. But even that's going to provide a slanted view.
Still, I am sorta itching to discuss the topic anyhow. So if you really think it worthwhile, let us know.
Ron, if we were to just light off a discusion of advocacy, she could just make her own assessments, couldn't she? I'd think that advocacy falls within the purview of The Forge to discuss, no?
Mike
On 4/1/2002 at 10:15pm, Jo Anne B. wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
I am sorry if I am not giving enough info. All I know of the assignment, is that it is an argument paper. My instructor said normally someone chooses abortion or gun control or something. I have to go into both views, pro and con. I have to quote someone from both sides, and give my own view. Since I have only been gaming for a short time period, and only fantasy stuff, like Exalted, GURPS, and D&D, I don't have much knowledge. I can say that I have been on both sides of gaming, I am kind of on hiatus from gaming for a while, but I did enjoy it. The class is English 1010 composition and rhetoric. There is no required length, but I do have to go into both sides. My problem is that its due tomorrow at 5:30. Thats all I can think of right now.
Again, thanks for all the help.
Jo Anne
On 4/1/2002 at 10:22pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
Heh, heh. Admitting to waiting until the last minute to complete an assignment on a forum moderated by a college professor...how deliciously ironic.
As far as helpful advice, I'm afraid advocacy isn't really a topic we've spent a lot of time hashing out here. As has been noted we are pretty much completely biased on the subject.
The Escapist almost certainly will have more useful ideas on that topic than we could provide in the time frame given.
On 4/1/2002 at 10:22pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
Hi Mike,
Thanks for calling me in. Frankly, I don't think we could contribute anything that The Escapist doesn't present already (and better). I also think you're right in that we'd produce, pretty much, a whole lot of confirmations that we thinking role-playing is great, and that objections to its existence are largely self-promoting power-trips rather than substantive activism.
Jo Anne, I do think we'll do better with your question if you explain what you mean by "pro" and "con." Are we talking about a particular policy toward role-playing? As in, you have to be 18 to buy them, or they have to be sold from behind a glass counter? Or are we talking about a vague "good" and bad"?
I suggest that the more concrete you are in defining pro and con, the better we'll be able to deal with it, and - frankly - the more likely I am to permit the discussion to continue.
I cannot over-stress, however, that we cannot do your assignment for you. There are already thousands of posts here and elsewhere, as well as many excellent links to check out, that can provide you with a lot of material. I'm definitely inclined to ask you to spend time doing that, then (if you want) come back with highly specific questions.
For instance, in the late 80s, I introduced some kids at a neighborhood center to D&D, and one parent got pretty upset about it. I could tell you about that sort of thing if it's relevant to (1) your overall topic and (2) a general issue you've isolated through studying other sources. But just sounding off about it right now isn't what I think the Forge is for.
Best,
Ron
On 4/1/2002 at 10:34pm, Jo Anne B. wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
By pro and con I simply mean for or against gaming. I heard somewhere that some people think gaming is the devil's work. And I also heard somewhere else that role-playing was originally used as a therapy. I don't mean to make the moderators agitated at a 19-yr. old's desperate plea for help, I'm just trying to get as much info as I can. If you want to stop my rantings, go ahead.
On 4/1/2002 at 10:34pm, Clinton R. Nixon wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
I'll give you a quote for your con side right now, so you can have a reasonably coherent and informed one:
Playing fantasy role-playing games (FRPGs) is not an activity for everyone. I'd particularly suggest it's not an activity for those that are young, easily influenced, or not firm in their religious beliefs. The act of playing FRPGs is one of imagining yourself in another world where the laws of nature and of God are radically different, and individuals who have a hard time keeping that distinction should be discouraged from getting involved in this activity.
When someone allows the influence of FRPGs to have too much of an influence on their mind, and the games begin to alter their perception of the real world, these individuals may become more involved in occult activities, illegal drugs, deviant sex practices (look at any FRPG convention for examples of this), and even violent criminal activity, as the average FRPG not only mentions all of these, but even promotes them as valid lifestyle choices within the fantasy world.
The most well-known FRPG, Dungeons and Dragons, explicitly rewards players for using mind-altering drugs (potions), worshiping bizarre cult-ish gods, dabbling in magical arts, and killing others for their money and goods. In fact, the reward system in Dungeons and Dragons is based on the fact that a character becomes more powerful by killing others, a value that could be extrapolated from the works of Frederich Nietzsche, a German philosopher well-known for saying, "God is dead." (This was said by a character in one of his books, but is often attributed to him.)
I am not saying these games promote real-world illicit activity. I am saying that the activities they promote within the fantasy world would be considered immoral in the real world, and that individuals that cannot distinguish between fantasy and reality should be steered clear of these influences.
--
Clinton R. Nixon
Technical Administrator, The Forge (www.indie-rpgs.com)
On 4/1/2002 at 10:42pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
Clinton R Nixon wrote:
Playing fantasy role-playing games (FRPGs) is not an activity for everyone. I'd particularly suggest it's not an activity for those that are young, easily influenced, or not firm in their religious beliefs. The act of playing FRPGs is one of imagining yourself in another world where the laws of nature and of God are radically different, and individuals who have a hard time keeping that distinction should be discouraged from getting involved in this activity.
Of course thats also true about reading books, watching TV, the internet, listening to music, professional wrestling, and going to the movies.
Basically, if you lack the ability to distinguish fantasy from reality, EVERY activity has the potential to lead to dangerous repurcussions.
Those who single out role playing for attention miss the point that there's something screwed up about those people to begin with and something (doesn't really matter what) was bound to send them over the edge sooner or later.
On 4/1/2002 at 10:48pm, Laurel wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
Jo, I'm going to post up an list of links that address both sides of the "is gaming evil" issue that I happened to have collected for a different project. Pro and con are not in any particular order. They provide helpful resources- writing the paper is up to you, though. :)
1)Religious Tolerance.Org
http://www.religioustolerance.org/d_a_d.htm
What the religious left saysabout fantasy RPGs.
2) Role-Playing Games and Satanism
http://www.locksley.com/6696/rpgsatan.htm
"Game Hysteria and the Truth" by Michael A. Stackpole
3) Christian RPG resources
http://www.phoenix-games.com/lotp/lotp-cgaming.html
Legend of the Phoenix and other Christian RPGs
4) Why Are Some Christians Opposed to D&D?
http://athos.rutgers.edu/pub/soc.religion.christian/faq/d&d
5) Christian Gaming
http://www.christiangaming.com/
Portal for Christian role-players
6) Role Playing Games- Good or Evil?
http://christianteens.about.com/library/weekly/aa111299.htm
7) Religious Symbolism in Video Games
http://www.somerandomguy.com/religion.shtml
8) Arguments Against Roleplaying (With Replies)
http://www.alliance-britney.com/ban-2001/netscape/argument.h tm
9) Do Role-PLaying Games Promote Crime,Satanism and Suicide?
http://www.dawn-joy.com/orion/kurt/html/roleplayinggames.htm
10) Dark in the Dungeon
http://www.worldmag.com/world/issue/02-27-99/cultural_3.asp
"These role-playing games flourish only in a milieu devoid of history"... by Mark Wegierski
11) Difficult Questions: Christianity and Console Role Playing Games
http://members.dandy.net/~mjyoung/letter06.htm
12) The Danger of Fantasy Role-Playing Games
http://www.johnankerberg.org/ankerberg-articles/dungeons.htm
On 4/1/2002 at 10:51pm, Clinton R. Nixon wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
Valamir,
I'm sure you realize that I'm not pigeon-holing gaming - just narrowing my comments to it since it's the topic at hand. I find the majority of humanity unable to figure out how to tie its own shoelaces. I also thought I'd provide a coherent anti-gaming view before Jo Anne got a babbling fool one.
On 4/1/2002 at 11:43pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
Absolutely Clinton, I was just providing a counter comment to your counter comment.
Course then Laurel goes and does something really constructive rendering our efforts pale by comparison ;-)
On 4/1/2002 at 11:48pm, Jo Anne B. wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
i do want to thank all of you for the help. it is very appreciated.
Jo Anne
On 4/2/2002 at 12:13am, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
Hi Jo Anne,
You're welcome! When you're done with the assignment, come on back and join in the discussions here, if you'd like. I invite you especially to check out my articles, using the link at the top of the page (he said modestly). Also, let us know how the assignment goes, and how the professor and the rest of the class respond to it.
No more procrastinating, though, OK?
Best,
Ron
On 4/2/2002 at 12:54am, J B Bell wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
Clinton R Nixon wrote: I'll give you a quote for your con side right now, so you can have a reasonably coherent and informed one:
When someone allows the influence of FRPGs to have too much of an influence on their mind, and the games begin to alter their perception of the real world, these individuals may become more involved in occult activities, illegal drugs, deviant sex practices (look at any FRPG convention for examples of this), and even violent criminal activity, as the average FRPG not only mentions all of these, but even promotes them as valid lifestyle choices within the fantasy world.
I know, I know, it's a straw man, but I can't help myself.
It's interesting in argument to note when someone categorizes as uncontroversially "bad" things that actually are controversial. So it's not enough to say that RPGs lead to "occult activites, illegal drugs, deviant sex practices . . . " and lump them in with "criminal activity". "Occult activities" can mean damn near anything; by Jack T. Chick's way of thinking, my Vajrayana Buddhism is the basest devil worship, and of course the new but increasingly established religion of Wicca is regarded by many as perfectly harmless at worst, but is bandied about by Fundamentalist types as a sure-fire road to jail, hell, and of course those deviant sex practices. Then we could get into whether the USA's ferocious anti-drug policy is really sensible, and finally, whoah, "deviant" sex practices. Sheesh. Those at least I can claim I figured out without gaming's help.
This is why it's important to know your audience. Skittish parents may be easy to scare, but a university prof. is going to want you to show why the "Bad Things" that something you're identifying as Bad are themselves Bad.
--J B Bell
occultist deviant drug-taking gamer. Oh yeah, anarchist too. Stop while you can, kids! Don't end up like meeee . . .
On 4/2/2002 at 2:15pm, Jo Anne B. wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
Does anyone know where I could find how rpgs started. I remember reading something a while ago that said rpgs started as a therapy or something. I just don't remember where.
Jo Anne
sorry to keep bugging you all.
On 4/2/2002 at 2:57pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
Jo Anne B. wrote: Does anyone know where I could find how rpgs started. I remember reading something a while ago that said rpgs started as a therapy or something. I just don't remember where.
Jo Anne
sorry to keep bugging you all.
That's sort of a misconception. Role-playing games were invented by some guys who liked wargames and kept reducing the scale of these games until each player was playing one person. So it originally had little to do with what Psychologists do. Their Role-playing is just a theraputic method that involves acting out particular roles. When the game designers in question got to the single player/single soldier level, they realized that they could play the role of the soldier as a character in a fictitious world. So they adopted the term role-playing, probably having heard of the psychological method, and recognizing the similarities.
So they are similar activities in some ways, but the one certainly did not lead to the other. RPGs are a product of wargames, plain and simple.
Mike
On 4/2/2002 at 5:32pm, Jo Anne B. wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
I have finished typing the essay. If any of you would like to see it, let me know, and I'll figure out how to let you see it. Again, thanks for the help.
Jo Anne
On 4/2/2002 at 5:33pm, Valamir wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
I think it would be interesting to see what you came up with.
Of course you'll have to make it clear whether or not your interested in having it critiqued :-)
On 4/2/2002 at 6:09pm, Jo Anne B. wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
any critique is welcome, but i have to leave for class in about 3 and half hours. Please let me know how I can send this to people.
Jo Anne
On 4/2/2002 at 6:28pm, Clinton R. Nixon wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
Jo Anne,
Feel free to either post it in the forums, or e-mail it to me at clinton@acid-reflex.com.
On 4/2/2002 at 6:52pm, Jo Anne B. wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
Clinton R Nixon wrote: Jo Anne,
Feel free to either post it in the forums, or e-mail it to me at clinton@acid-reflex.com.
you wouldn't mind if i put it in the forums?
I'll think about that one first. it is about 3 pages double spaced in Word. I did email it to you though, thanks.
Jo Anne
On 4/10/2002 at 10:52pm, Jo Anne B. wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
If anyone is interested to find out, I got a B on the essay.
On 4/10/2002 at 11:51pm, Paul Czege wrote:
RE: Pros and Cons of Gaming
Were you happy with the B? Do you think she could tell you did it last minute?
Paul