Been a while since my last post. Lots of changes have gone through in the system, but the core remains the same. However, I have a exciting mechanic I want to work with , and I am having issues figuring out how it should work, logicalyl and fairly for all.

"The Stain, and Sway"

Dreamers, the "heroes" of my gameworld, can control the energy of the dream realms (called Strata) and manifest these energies into reality. At low levels, this wasnt too big an issue. However, when we get to higher levels of power, the PCs will be capable of extremely powerful effects. There are Thirteen different strata which they can gain power in (Death, Life, Shadow, Light, Form, Spirit, Decay, Force, Spatial, Temportal, Body, Mind, Void). They are able to mix and match powers to form effects (reminiscent of Mage or Ars Magicka). Since they can pull stuf from dreams the possibilities are essentially limitless.

To fight the "power gamist" aspect this could present, I decided a failsafe was needed. Thus, the "Stain" idea. The way it works (so far) is as follows:

Dreamers are connected to an intelligent energy source that came millenia ago to the world. No one knows it is there, but it has influenced every single event that has happened since it arrived. The energy is named Void. It feeds on dreams. It also must manifest dreams into reality..sorta its way of "pooping". Because when it came to the world, there was war, famine and pestilence, most of the dreams were very very bad ones. These terrible dreams slowly twisted Void. Eventually Void lost control of its more vile manifestations. They are called "Chimera", and are living Nightmares. Though few in number, they grow in power the more they feed on fear, despair and misery. Somehow they found a way to weaken the control which Void had on them so that they could be free to do as they pleased.

Void, much of its power lost, used its remaining energy to create the Dreamers. They are able to tap into Void, and use its power of dreams. While they are INTENDED to be beings that destroy the now free-roaming evil of Nightmares, they do not know this.

Void is now hibernating, and has no control at all over its manifestations anymore. Void, additionally, is just a little insane due to so many centuries of feeding off of madness and death through dreams. Anyone connected to Void, thus, is also at risk to this madness.

Thus, the Stain.

So what exactly is it? Well, in short, a sliding scale. However, the player themselves has absolutely NO control over the Stain or its sway to left or right. The only thing they are able to do is decide how to act and use their powers.

Dreams have no consequence, but those who see things in reality are likely to dream about them. In this game world, the dreams you had would run the risk of actually becoming reality.

Thus, while George could make a sword out of thin air and kill the Scary Monster in front of many witnesses and play the part of hero, he would have to contend with how others saw the event through their eyes. Since he is, essentially, a part of the dream world, he could later on face the very demons someone envisioned for him in a dream. Maybe Jimbo Junior had kept Scary Monster as a pet for 12 years? Perhaps it only LOOKED like a scary monster but was not a monster at all?  And what, exactly, would the more "normal" folk think, exactly, of a man that made a sword appear from his hands? Would he be seen as a witch?  A god? The idea is to make a player think before using their powers.

What happens in the Stain/Sway system is this: Whenever a player uses their dream powers, the rest of their play group decides together, with the GM, what sort of effect it could have. Based on the feedback of the party, the player will mark down his points attained on this sliding scale. The further in a direction he goes (ie: Light Side vs Dark Side, so to speak) the more serious things can become for them.

At first, nothing much happens. However, the more power they gain, the more seriously they can affect this Sway. Eventually they could be come very attractive to the Chimera/Nightmares, or hated enemies of them. There could be any number of other strange occurances. Perhaps their strongest Dream Powers start acting strange, not having the desired effects.

EG:

GM: Okay Bob...the creature charges out of the hut, into the center of the village square. It is looking rather angry at you for kicking it in the face.

Bob: Allright...time to teach this thing a lesson. Im going to use my Life and Form strata. This creature is going to regret biting my hand!

GM: What , exactly, are you going to do?

Bob: using my strata that I mentiond, I am going to turn it into a pile of gelatinous goop. It will be as thick as tar, and extremely flammable.

GM: Right here, in broad daylight?

Bob: Yea.

(Gm looks at the party , and asks) GM: You notice that Bob suddenly gets a strange look on his face. Clearly he is going to do one of his famous "magic tricks"....anyone care to talk him down?

Kevin: I will. "Bob! Dont even think about it! What happened LAST time?!?!?!"

Bob: Nothing , really. Sure, my powers acted funny for a few days. Woopie. The dang craeture BIT me. its going to pay!

Kevin: You flicked it in the face with a finger. of COURSE it bit you. I would have too!

Bob: No excuse.

GM: Okay then...bob, roll to use your Strata.

(bob rolls. a success. the creature, in plain view of hundreds of people, suddenly begins a horrible mutation. Bones rip out of its body, its flesh melts into a messy black goo. Eventualyl it sits there as a puddle. The entire time it squeals in terrible agony. Children witness the adorable creature suffering, and cry in fear. Adults grab them in shock, hiding their eyes. The whole scene is terible. No one has any idea what happened.)

Bob: "HAH!"

GM: Was that in character, that laugh?

Bob: Yes.

GM: Allright folks. We all saw what Bob just did to that Fluffy Chicken-Dog Pup. So did the entire bazaar. Hundreds of witnesses. What do we all think?

Kevin: Well, I know that Kevin was horrified by Bobs act. Negative sway, GM.

Jim: Same thing here. Funny as the whole ordeal was, he didnt need to do that. At least not in front of a crowd. Negative.

Jill: I love animals. He more or less jsut butchered a puppy in front of a hundred people. Hes heartless and cruel. Negative.

GM: And every person in the crowd was just terrified by that , as well. You , Bob, may have just caused 100 children to have nightmares for the next several months. Negative. You are now -10 to Sway. What do you sit at now?

Bob: (OOC)WHAT!?!?! Why do you always do that to me? im at -20 now...whats that mean?

GM: It means you just caused the birth of a new Chimera/Nightmare. And it is linked directly to you. If you dont do something about your actions in the future and you slip further, the Nightmare might decide to manifest. From inside your torso, or something equally unpleasant. On the upside though, you can now perform such disgusting acts of power like you just did at +2. Too bad any positive use of the Life or Form strata is now at a -4.
   
Bob: (OOC) Okay... you guys suck..... (the game then commences)

------------------

An interesting mechanic...but one I cannot quite decide on how to balance. Obviously it has a lot of potential. I LOVE the idea of the teamwork it will inspire , as well as how it almost forces the elimination of the "Lone Wolf" syndrome in gaming circles. Now that guy who does whatever he wants while you all play, despite the other players repeated pleas NOT to do things...well, they have some issues now.

Any feedback on how to make this work smoothly would be lovely :)

hmmm I am quite surprised to have no replies :)

Hi Chris,

It's very good you provided a play example. That's very useful. As I read it though, I was cringing. I would *not* want to play with those people. There's a very unhealthy kind of whiny competetiveness there, where one player takes joy in shutting down another. Do you consider this kind of behavior inevitable or normal? It's certainly not inevitable. If obnoxiousness if what you're trying to prevent, then I don't think your new rule does that. At least in your example, it just perpetuates it, by introducing an arbitrary kind punishment.

But there are bigger issues here. Fundamentally, if one player doesn't understand what his group wants out of the game, then no rule can solve that. If Jim wants to say, "My guy spins around and falls over dizzy, then goes into a coma," then the group's got bigger issues than the rules. Your "problem" of potential power-gaming seems like one you've created. You want to give players lots of power to affect the game world but you wan't want them to use it? If they shouldn't be using their power, then why give it to them? If there's something specific that doesn't work, then say, "you can't do this." And trust your players. Have you played games where players get a lot of authority (i.e. director stance)? They work, and usually without any kind of "failsafe."

The play example provided was a "worst case scenario" , certainly not what one woudl expect in any given game (nor allow, if I was the DM/GM/ST/whatever). It was there simply to show what could be done to those who ruin the play of others. Perhaps a less "biased" example would be more appropriate.

My goal, with the concepts outlined above, is to make every major use of their power a moral dilemma. Minor things could be done with little to no consequence, whereas things (for instance, growing a third arm to use in battle, fully articulated with the same AR and STR of the characters other limbs) of more power will require them to give some thought. The issue is making sure everything works in the way it should.

The way I see it (example below) is that the sliding scale woudl not PUNISH so much as provide issues for a given character when using their abilities.

Eg:

The Sway Scale

Neg-------------------------------------------------------------------------NEUTRAL--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Pos
-4/+4                    -2/+2                      -1/+1              None          +1/-1                      +2/-2                                  +4/-4

its rough, I know. This isnt an official representation, since I am just trying to work out details at this point.

Now, every character would start at Neutral. Each "Dreamer" character is a member of what are called "Periapts", basically Cults devoted to a specific philosophy. Each Cult encompasses 2 of the 12 dream Strata (which, i suppose, you could equate to the "Spheres" in White Wolfs "Mage" game for lack of a better comparison), both of which are driect opposites (Life/Death, Light/Shadow, etc)

whenever they use their power, it is either positive or negative in nature. For instance, with Life I could heal someones wounds (positive) but I could also cause them a tummy ache (negative). Depending on the application of power, and what it could be percieved as from others who are NOT the character casting the power, Sway could result.

Sway would, in essence, limit a character somewhat. So, if someone has a tendency to stick to negative actions and racks up negative Sway they will eventually be almost incapable of inducing positive effects. The same applies to the opposite end of the spectrum. The constant influence of the "evil" Chimera(Nightmares) is a problem at the negative end. They could therefore end up being a possible "gateway" for these negative forces. The same applies on the positive end, but for what are called "Incarnates", which are the extreme "good" dreams brought to life. Things like angels, etc.

This has sort of led me to interesting ideas in regards to these two opposing forces. A character with negative sway will be able to be influenced (without their knowledge) by the Nightmare forces to do their bidding, and vice versa for the "good" guys. Thus, the players end up almost unwitting pawns in a sort of Dream War. Should a character reach either extreme and SURPASS that extreme by a certain amount they cease being playable characters as the "demons"/"angels" literally consume them and are birthed from their bodies.

Again, interesting ideas but certainly not an ironed-out system. I value the opinions of the individuals here, and though I would at least see what sort of info and opinions folks could give in regards to it.

Hi,

What I don't understand is when the other players should decide to inflict these consequences. What drives that decision? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to want a balancing mechanism which will, as you say, limit the actions of the character (i.e. the decisions of the player) --  specifically which will prevent them from getting too powerful or from misusing their power. But why? If the example you provided is indeed "worst case" (and I would say totally untenable) then why have an elaborate mechanism just to thwart it? Plan your game's mechanics so that they reliably produce a good experience for people who understand them and are committed to play working out. You have to assume that. If players don't understand the rules or aren't buying into making a good experience, then the rules won't help anyway. So building rules trying to solve that is both hopeless and will probably be at cross-purposes with that you're really trying to do.

So... If you want moral decisions to be prominent in your game, they're going to have to be hugely supported by the mechanics. Not just layered on top, as part of a power failsafe. And if you really want to stop players from exercising certain powers, don't give them the powers at all. You might like to read this post by Bankuei on his game design blog: Which came first, the Chicken or the Littling?.

sayter wrote:
The play example provided was a "worst case scenario" , certainly not what one woudl expect in any given game (nor allow, if I was the DM/GM/ST/whatever). It was there simply to show what could be done to those who ruin the play of others. Perhaps a less "biased" example would be more appropriate.

hmmm ....Okay, perhaps a better explanation. the system itself would exsist NOT as purely a failsafe...that is merely the "side effect".

    The moral dilemmas, etc are almost subliminal, something that doesnt necessarily infect every aspect of play. But its something players should keep in mind. And I don't necessarily mean Good or Evil , either. Since both those terms are really subject to dissection based on ones individual upbringings and whatnot. It boils down to, essentially, negative or positive.

For instance, using Life to heal would be Positive, and to harm would be negative.

With that in mind...let me see if I can come up with a good play example.

IC=In Character
OOC=Out of Character

GM: "The Baroness stands before you, a beautiful woman the likes of which you have seldom seen. Her graceful movements are almost hypnotic. She speaks to you each, her voice flowing and song-like."
    "So, you claim to be emissaries from the Republic? I thought we had already agreed, and on more than one occasion, that our interests within Matra are the same as that of our most noble Queen? There is no negotiation to be had. The metal is to be provided at the set price, and no less. If you think to gain politically by this meeting, you are speaking to one who cares not for such games."

Bob(IC): "M'lady, we do not seek to ruin the profit to be had between our nations. We come here speaking on behalf of Ispix..."

GM(Baroness): "Ispix? You do not come on behalf of the whole republic then? I was of the understanding that your laws prohibit action which is not first agreed upon by the central council."

Bob (IC): M'lady, please hear me out.

(Baroness): Very well. Speak your mind, Dahk.

Bob(IC): As I was saying. We seek not to cause any stress upon the lucrative trade agreements. There has been some concern of late within Ispix. The Republic does not provide us with any of your metals, anymore. They seem to think that the Eyes of the World are controlling our Baron and his court. Because of this, our people are without the protection your precious metals offer in weapons and armor. From the south comes much danger, for there have been attacks on our outer villages by unknown forces.

(Baroness): I see. And how,exactly, is this my problem? Your people have access to iron, and I know for fact that you are able to create steel. Both of these are capable of slaying threats from the Wilds.

(jim interuppts)

Jim(IC): Yes, m'lady. We do have steel, and iron. However, your people have never been threatened by the things which loom within the Wilds. Have you ever seen a Jun-shar?

Bob(OOC): Are you stupid? she must know that Jun-shar are mostly harmless.
Jim(OOC): She might NOT know. Bear with me. I have a plan.
(The GM rolls to see if the queen knows her creatures. she passes with a  perefct roll)

(Baroness): You must be kidding? Ispix cannot defend against disorgainsed tribes of stupid, waist high savages? They do not even possess the capacity to create armor! My own DAUGHTER could kill one, likely with her doll!

Bob(ooc) Oh wow, what a great plan Jim. Now we're screwed.
Jim(OOC): Im just getting started. watch....
Sam(OOC): This had better work. Otherwise we just travelled 2 months for no damn reason.

Jim(IC): Yes, such creatures are not formidable. Normally. But you have not, I wager, heard of the Black Jushar? Unlike their useless cousins, these craetures are quite deadly. Standing as tall as yourself, but much wider and rippling with muscles. They are coated in a thick layer of viscous slime, which is poison to touch. And the stench.....I lost my own child to their savage attacks. And they use weapons pilfered from the slain. Believe me when I say, they are not to be underestimated.

Jim(OOC): After I say all that, I use the Mind strata. I want to make SURE she believes me.I'm going to plant a little seed in her head, an unquestioning belief, and a terrible fear of the creatures I just described.

Bob(ooc) But they dont even exist.
GM: She doesnt know that, Bob. Jim, go ahead and make your roll. (Jim rolls , and is successful) Allright, the use of your power works. But, you are forcing her to believe a lie and stand to gain from it. I think this would definitely qualify as a Sway test. Vote, everyone.

Bob(ooc): -1
Sam(ooc):-1
Kate(ooc):+1

GM: Allright. Two at -1, one at +1. Looks like its -1 sway for you, Jim. (jim marks the negative sway on his sheet)

Jim(ooc): Shit. That puts me to -6. Whats that mean?

GM : Well, at -6, thats not too terrible. Any positive actions are at a -2 , but negatives are at +2 now. Care should be taken from now on though...much more and you are going to find it hard to do any more healing with your Life strata or any sort of modification in your blacksmithing from now on using Form strata. Which means getting the metal you came here for wont be of much use to you anyway. Lets continue.

(Baroness) I....see. I would hate to see such beasts in my own territory. I can understand your concern. However, my stance remains the same. The Queen has decreed that all metal is to be traded only with official caravans, and no provinces may be sold the metals without consent of your council or the Queen herself.

Jim(ooc): oh COME ON. She SO should have changed her mind.

GM: You didnt MAKE her change her mind. You made her beleive you and fear these "black junshar" you made up.

Bob(ooc) well, guess its time for another approach. I speak up.

Bob(IC): M'lady, we mean no disrespect, but the council does not see things our way. Our people are dying, sometimes in numbers as large as a hundred a night or more. What if it was your own daughter, trapped within a small hovel, when these craetures came charging from the wood. Steel has no effect on them! Nor iron! It is like striking a mountain! Fighting back requires magick, or special metals. Nothing else works...and our Sparks are few and their magick is paltry in comparison to that of other provinces!

(Baroness): I see...I feel for your people. I really do. But I dare not disobey my Queen! Would you see me hanged?

Kate (IC): If it meant that thousands of lives could be saved, then yes. I would see it. One life is never a fair trade for many, unless that life was that of the Queen herself.

(Baroness): You speak rashly, although I can understand your position. But I will not budge.

Kate(OOC) : We are not leaving here without our metal. Allright...this is going to cause some trouble. Im going to make one HELL of an illusion here. How many are in the room besides us and the baroness?

GM: 2 guards at the door, and 4 others within the chamber close to the Baroness herself. 2 archers are watching from the parapet outside her large window, which is open.

Kate (OOC): Great. This is going to be tough. Okay..heres what Im doing. Im going to use Mind, and Force paired together. Im going to make it sound like there is a huge fight going on in the hall. Some terrible monstrous grunts, the clash of metal on metal and the dying screams of the guards outside the doors. Lets make her think that there are Black junshar right outside the doors, that they followed us.

GM: Interesting. Okay...lets see here...quite a few people around. Are you fooling ALL of them?

Kate: Yep. All except my party.

GM: Allright...im gonna say this is NOT easy. Diffculty 20. (Kate rolls, and pulls off an 18. not quite a sucess.)

Kate: Almost...im going to use some Fate points...add 2 to the roll. (this is done, and she succeeds)

GM: Okay...this act doesnt seem to be positive or negative...not yet at least. Its definite trickery, but the results could mean anything, really. The effect itself is neutral...until this plays out a bit, I will hold the Sway vote.

(GM rolls for a reaction for the Baroness)
GM: "The Baroness suddenly cowers, and screams for the guards to block the door and prepare for battle. They scramble there swiftly. The archers on the parapet seem panicked, and they notch arrows on their bows, aiming for the main door.

(Baroness): That sound....what is it?!!??!

Kate: Baroness...they must have followed us here! The Black Junshar have engaged your guards! We are all doomed!

Sam(ooc) Do we know what is goin on at this point?

GM: Yes. She didnt affect you with the sounds, but its fairly obvious what her plan is.

Sam (IC) : Damn those beasts! They are an abomination! They must be slain!

(Baroness): What will become of us if they get through the door? You must tell me!

Bob(IC): M'lady, they will kill the males and rape the women, the poison upon them killing shortly after. Rest assured it is not pleasant.

Sam (IC) Baroness, I advise you to seek safety!

(Baroness): GUARDS! Engage the enemy!
GM: The guards open the door and charge outside, fear in their eyes, but resolute in defending their leader.

Kate(ooc) so its just us and the baroness now?
GM: Yes. She is running to the rear of her chambers now, and motions you to follow.

(Baroness) COME! We must seek shelter. I will help you, as you have requested, if you will tell me how to defend my people against such terrors!

Bob(OOC): Before we follow her, I want to finish the illusion with a slam-bang-BOOM! Im going to actualyl MAKE some Black Junshar. Four of them. Right outside the doors, with a taste for flesh. If we are to get this freakin' metal to make the swords we need...we need to be particularly convincing.

GM: That's a risky bit of business...And Im not even going to pretend that it is ANYTHING but negative sway. Granted, it is using the positive side of Life and Force strata...but the effect is inherently negative. You are talking about those guards being messily killed, and very soon. But..since you are currently at +6 sway, that puts you at +2 on positive energy use. Thatll make the difficulty 16.

Bob (OOC) Excellent. (rolls, and fails)

GM: Allright...you failed, but only marginally. (rolls a check)....backlash....instead of creating 4, there are about 15 of them in the hallway. Everyone, Vote.

Sam: -2
Kate:-2
Jim:-2

GM: Allright Bob...-2 Sway. So now you are at +4. There is a hail of screams from outside the door, and terrible sounds of slaughter. In a few short seconds, the clash of steel on steel stops, and there is a moment of silence.

Kate (OOC): Why did you have to fail the roll.....
(Baroness): Gods! Are they all slain?
Kate(IC): I think not....

GM: There is slamming on the main doors. Heavy, rythmic. The beasts are trying to break through.....

(this is getting lengthy now..but i hope it gives a better example of play)

Sayter,

I am a big fan of morality mechanics within game systems, especially those which raise moral questions instead of give moral answers.  I like how the more you follow one moral path the easier it is to continue along that moral path, it sort of sucks you in... until you loose all free will.  And it doesn't matter which side, good or evil, you work with.  Both will destroy you if over used.  Nice.

I have a couple of technical issues with how it is currently set up.  Right now you have certain actions set as positive and negative.  Killing is negative.  Healing is positive.  You also seem to want the out comes of the powers use to have positive and negative aspects.  If the action promotes the greater good it is positive, if it helps the individual using it then it is negative.  There is clearly a conflict between these two systems and I don't feel that the way in which they interact is clear.

I strongly recommend against allowing the player base as a whole decide in each instance how to shift the individual character's stain.  This gives the group the option to perform any kind of action and not suffer any consequences.  They could take their characters to the boarder where they get large bonuses, use those bonuses in rolls and them assign themselves no modifier.  This would seem like the dominance strategy as your rules are currently set up.

I recommend making a set of very specific rules regarding what kind of actions result in a Stain shift and how much that shift is.  I would then put the GM in charge of assigning shifts based on this list.  This will vastly make your game a lot less breakable, clarify what kind of action results in what kind of penalty and cut down on time required to process each and every Stain shift.  Votes can take a while.

Best,
      Bill

hmm an interesting perspective, and one I sort of agree with. I liked the idea of the vote , because of the whole "dreams have no consequences, but ones actions are seen by OTHERS as positive or negative" thing.

I totally see where you are going though, with your last post. And I definitely see the inherent qualities of either perspective. The vote coudl easily be abused by a playgroup catering to a very gamist style...where as narrative and simulationist play would be a whole different story.

but since the game itself is a very anime/wuxia/pulp style game, it will likely appeal to the gamists as much as the other types of players.

i pictured the voting going on the fly, but i suppose i hadnt looked at the inherent arguments which coudl arise. I assumed (likely wrongly) that the player affected would get NO say in the votes, period. Another reason for the votes, was because I figured the GM, while being "in charge" is only controlling the NPCs, and not the other characters views.

all in all, I think I may have to reinvent the concept to a minor degree and make a static sort of table and some rules to denote what constitutes a Stain shift.

Any ideas for this? Would it make more sense to have a static table, or to use a random roll, or to base it off the power of the effect being used? (ie: i use 10 mana, bill uses 4....my stain change would be that much greater because of the aded oomph)

Sayter,

I would recommend basing the sway off of who the powers effect and how much of an effect they have.  For example:

Major benefit to others with costs to no one or yourself:  +2
Major benefit to others with lesser costs to others:  +1
Minor benefit to others with costs to no one or yourself:  +1
Benefits to yourself without costs to others:  0
Benefits and costs between two different groups balance out:  0
Minor benefit to others with major costs to others:  -1
Minor cost to others with benefits to only yourself:  -1
Major costs to others with benefits to only yourself:  -2

This is a very rough outline of the type of table I would recommend.  You will need to decide what constitutes a major and minor benefit.  You might also want to take into account how many people are effected and how close they are to the individual using the power.

I hope this gives you a decent place to start.

Best,
      Bill

On the same page with you there. A scale like that would make perfect sense, and be easy to follow. Leaving the "hardest calls" to GM fiat would solve any other potential headaches. I'll see what I can come up with , and when I have a more solid foundation I shall post it for review :)

Chris

Hi!
  I think the voting system is a great mechanic. If a group is into the game world and into the current campaign, it is solid foundation for interactive and dynamic game.
  But you raised the issue of powergamers/munchkism. This system does not resolve this issue. if someone has a broken perspective of the game world or group dynamic. For instance, players could conspire to bid low or if there is a personality conflict, players could single out a member and bid against them and go easy on the "cool" players.
  I think if you create a game that has complex game world and is not centered on conquest, you might not need to build in a failsafe against power gamers.
  One possible failsafe might be a sliding difficulty scale based on the drasticness of the power used.

interesting, didenvr. And the gameworld is certainly NOT built on conquest. IT is centered on exploration and discovery...and very heavily on simply surviving against the darkness that waits right outside our view and stalks us forever; it merely awaits the individual to screw up enough that it can waltz in and obliterate their lives or their sanity.

As such, I suppose your positition also makes a good amount of sense. I too like the voting mechanic, and would be dissapointed not to use it. I'll keep your position in mind as i develop the idea further.