-Hello,
    I have been working on the solid format distribution of my first RPG book for some time and have recently switched to a comb binding instead of the more expensive (with the deals I was getting) paperback binding. Personally I like the comb binding because it lasts better over time, it is easier to turn pages, and, of course, because it isn't costing me as much.
    What I'd like to know is do you think I made the right decision? I know that there are other binding choices out there, but I didn't really look at them, so I'm wondering if I made a mistake choosing this binding style.
-Jeremy

Whether you're making the right decision is based on what you want, not some arbitrary scale of better/worse. If you like comb binding better aesthetically, then go with it. If you like perfect binding better, go with that. That's really all there is to it. On the other hand, if you're looking for feedback as to whether one format sells better than another, then restate your question and I'm sure there will be plenty of folks here who can aswer that, based on their own experiences.

About the price, though, where are you looking? From the pricing I've done, it seems you can get much better deals on perfect binding, especially if you buy it in small runs (24+). If you private message me, I'll give you some prices from different sources. Or you can use the links I put together in this thread. Just scroll to the last roundup on the second page.

I believe strongly, after having published dozens and dozens of books with comb binding and communicating with others who sell with perfect binding, that comb binding sells is a negative selling point. I believe, based on feedback I've received, that this is based on the perception of "real" and "amateurish" product in the mind of the consumer culture.

However, strangely enough, I've had several people tell me that once they get the comb binding home and read the book, they really like it, perhaps even prefer it.

But, remember, they've got to BUY it first to come to that conclusion.

    Yes I was kind of afraid of that. I suppose I might have to rethink this sales idea then. However, I don't believe it is a good idea to simply pull the product version at this point, so I may just start offering it in "perfect" binding in addition to comb. I happen to agree with the people who prefer comb binding, I've owned an a lot of perfect binding books and comb bound books, and I find that it is much easier to read the comb bound ones, besides, they seem hold together better. Not that too many of my books have fallen apart.
    Thanks for the input, I'll have to look into some I suppose changes.

Matt wrote:
I believe strongly, after having published dozens and dozens of books with comb binding and communicating with others who sell with perfect binding, that comb binding sells is a negative selling point. I believe, based on feedback I've received, that this is based on the perception of "real" and "amateurish" product in the mind of the consumer culture.

However, strangely enough, I've had several people tell me that once they get the comb binding home and read the book, they really like it, perhaps even prefer it.

But, remember, they've got to BUY it first to come to that conclusion.

Clinton Nixon, author or TSOY and tech admin here at the Forge, sells TSOY through lulu.com in both a comb and perfect binding.  Due in large part to having Matt Snyder's Nine Worlds in comb binding I recently ordered TSOY the same way, I happen to like that binding (I have several coil bound games, but then I'm an enthusiast.)  So there is a market for it.  If you are selling through something like lulu, adding a regular perfect bind should be pretty easy.

best

Trevis

The idea of the "market" for comb bound over perfect bound books is an interesting one.

Comb binding has been around for years. Church cook books come to mind. It has always been associated with short print run books. I remember college reading packets from years ago. The market for such books always seems to be local. If used roughly they do fall appart (but what book doesn't?) The mass market doesn't use this method much. They don't stack well and can't be read from the spine.

Internet sales certainly looks and behaves more like a local market than the mass market so comb binding should do well there. I know that when I buy a book online I do so for the content rather than the binding.

Perfect binding on the other hand looks good for stores but isn't durable. It can be mass market but as Ron has pointed out - the mass market isn't what he aims at anyway. It's a completely different beast. If a game is a hit if it sells 500 copies then it is not mass market.

Most indie RPG writers have a few games in them. Unless you have a vision that spans 30 or more products (released over 3 or 4 years) then pursuing the mass market wouldn't make sense.

This is getting way beyond your topic but I wonder what are good motivations for pursuing the mass market. I know I am on that track, because I'm not so much selling one game as a different kind of game. Engle Matrix Games are similar to but really aren't role play games. I've worked long and hard to spread the idea and that is leading to other designers making their own version of the game. For this branch of gaming to become established as strong part of the gaming world I think it needs to have economic success. Large sales do not certify that a game or idea is good but it does fuel the engine that makes people aware of it. Awareness can lead to actual play - which then leads back to what I'd really like to see happen which is creativity spurred by the games.

If any one wants to talk about these ideas, this should be spun off into a new thread.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

Fast Forward Games used a hardback that combined the lay-flat ability of comb with a spine.  I don't know what it's officially called, but I called it a Good Idea.  Now if only they had printed good material inside them and had stayed away from D&D copyright violations, they might still be making them.

I think there seems to be some confusion here (I'm confused at least).
Are we talking about coil binding or comb binding? People seem to be using them interchangeably (TSOY is available in coil-bound, for instance, not comb bound as noted above), but the two are not the same.

Coil binding might be a tolerable alternative to perfect bound (though I have my doubts about how well it would hold up and wouldn't choose it myself). Comb binding is complete junk, in my experience. I'd pass on a book I was interested in over it. I'd rather you just threw some xeroxed pages in a three-ring binder, rather than make me deal with a comb-bound book (at least I can repair the pages when they tear out, or replace the binding when it snaps). I've dealt with comb-binding, for reports and spec books in the architectural field, for too many years to ever try and use it for anything that wasn't intended to be disposable.

Comb and coil are different, but similar.  Comb binding uses a (unsurprisingly) comb-shaped piece of plastic to hold the pages together. Imagine a comb wrapped around a rod, so that the tines fold back under the spine of the comb. The tines go through the pages to hold it together. Coil binding, as you'd expect, holds the pages together with a plastic or metal coil. Comb binding is less....well...floppy than coil, but coil can be wrapped completely around (the back cover can rest flush with the front). So, they have some minor differences, but they're still a bunch of pages held together with a piece of plastic (or metal).

madelf wrote:
I think there seems to be some confusion here (I'm confused at least).
Are we talking about coil binding or comb binding? People seem to be using them interchangeably (TSOY is available in coil-bound, for instance, not comb bound as noted above), but the two are not the same.

Coil binding might be a tolerable alternative to perfect bound (though I have my doubts about how well it would hold up and wouldn't choose it myself).

    That sounds like an interesting  binding style. Too bad they got themselves into legal trouble. I wonder what it is called, definitely might be something to look into...

LloydBrown wrote:
Fast Forward Games used a hardback that combined the lay-flat ability of comb with a spine.  I don't know what it's officially called, but I called it a Good Idea.  Now if only they had printed good material inside them and had stayed away from D&D copyright violations, they might still be making them.

Hey Folks,

Those looking for lay flat books while maintaining a perfect bound aesthetic may be interested in RepKover. O'Reilly publishing uses it in their books. It's a lay-flat paperback binding that gives the appearance of perfect binding on the shelf. I understand it to have some limitations in terms of the size of the book, so smaller projects probably aren't going to work with it. For larger texts though it could really come in handy. I'm not certain on it's availability to the small press market, but in any event, more info here:

http://www.oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/ask_tim/2004/repkover_0304.html

-Tim (but not O'Reilly)

Tim wrote:
Those looking for lay flat books while maintaining a perfect bound aesthetic may be interested in RepKover. O'Reilly publishing uses it in their books. It's a lay-flat paperback binding that gives the appearance of perfect binding on the shelf.

Yes, and it's absolutely the most perfect binding for an RPG I've ever seen: it's extremely durable, it lays flat, and it looks good on a shelf.

No POD that I know of does it, though, and local binderies give me a blank look.

In traditional binding, it's called a tape-bound hollowback, for what it's worth.

There's another option that I'd like to see (and am not using purely because it doesn't exist in any POD form): a coil binding that goes through the back of a wrap-around cover, leaving the readable spine and little stripes of coil on the back of the book. It's not perfect (it'll still damage the cover behind it, for instance), but it's a really, really good way to go, for practical purposes.

I managed to locate a single POD that will do Otabinding, which is more or less the same as the RepKover binding.  Has anyone here worked with them/hear anything about them?

http://www.creaseyprinting.com/cps/

We should have an interesting test case with Nine Worlds. Nine Worlds is now out in perfect bound. Previously, it was available in comb binding. I offer a 40% discount on the new edition to anyone who purchased the comb-bound version. About 4-5 people have taken advantage of this offer.

I'd love to hear how they think the two texts compare. I'm pretty certain at least ONE customer has the exact same version of the text with both bindings, and I probably will inquire with him.

There is a middle ground:

Metal Combs.

They hold up best out of all your lower cost bindery options and, IMHOAAPQP (In My Humble Opinion As A Professional Quick Printer) are best suited to the Indy RPG format.

I never knew they existed. Can you explain more, or point to some links perhaps?

If you're talking about the same metal combs I've seen, they don't hold up very well over time, as they tend to get bent out of shape.

Matt wrote:
I never knew they existed. Can you explain more, or point to some links perhaps?

Roland.of.Gilead wrote:
A quick search came up with this:

http://www.cleansweepsupply.com/pages/item-gbc9665300.html

True, there is some variance in the quality of these combs (you might also find it under wire binding), and I can't vouch for the ones in the link. The ones I have used in the past have been of excellent quality. As for the binding not being done right, switch printers if this happens more than a few times.

Book binding (Case bound) is the best option for a book.

If this option is cost prohibitive...

Roland.of.Gilead wrote:
Perfect Binding: Looks good, will impress at first glance. Reality: The glue used to secure the spine is ...well... just glue. Hard glue is not pliable, it's ridged, and it cracks and degrades very quickly. Basically this form of binding is used when you want to impress yet the utility of the document is short term.

Ah! I recognize these now. Thanks.

madelf wrote:
They should be using flexible glue. Some types of glue will remain flexible for just about forever. I've got perfect-bound books older than I am (and I'm 38) that are still in one piece. The books are showing their age, certainly, but the binding is still in good shape. ('course I've got hardcovers only a few years old that are falling apart too, it's all in the quality of the individual book as far as I can tell)

Roland.of.Gilead wrote:
So all I'm saying is, off the cuff I would chouse average metal combs over average perfect binding. If you'd seen the things go wrong that I have, I'm betting you would too.

Roland.of.Gilead wrote: quote author=Roland.of.Gilead link=topic=17550.msg188040#msg188040 date=1133366434
Then again it's all about the bottom line.

In the long run people will appreciate the Metal Comb better and curse you when the Perfect Bind falls apart. In the short term people will buy the Perfect bind and laugh at the Metal Comb as being unprofessional unless something has made them aware of the quality difference.

... That's as I said. If you really want to avoid this issue all together, you simply need to do larger runs with larger companies. It's the only real solution to maintain the quality, appearance, and cost.

That being said, any book only looks as good as you design it to. If your designing books meant for print with out regard for how they are to be printed.... well good luck.