Topic: The Hive
Started by: Tyrant
Started on: 4/2/2002
Board: Indie Game Design
On 4/2/2002 at 5:18pm, Tyrant wrote:
The Hive
This is still very much in the development phase: and this is just a quick note
The basic premise is that everyones reality is different, that the mind is capable of changing the universe if given the chance, however the core reality that we currently reside in is the result of the collective consciousness called the Hive
I intend this to be a Horror game that transends time, (in other words you can play (As the same character) in any time frame) and is not based on Christian/Judaic mythology
Though it isn't based off the Myth, part of the cosmology of the game includes elements of it... the Hive collects the things we store in our minds and creates them as if they were real.. thus if a man belives in heaven and hell, it exists
As far as inspiration goes, I love some of the ideas from the Following:
White Light: Rudy Rucker
House of Leaves: Mark Z Danielewski
Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within
The Invisibles: Grant Morrison
Kult: Metropolis Games (Defunct)
Obviously that isn't all, but it's a good start
Why? Because I'm tired of horror games being based off Judaic/Christian mythology.. not because I don't like them, just because almost every horror game is
The Game setting is based off more than just one thing, some of which include Chaos Theory (Both in Mathematics and Magic), Pure Psychology, Jungian concepts and my own odd bits here and there..
I'm lucky to have some good friends helping me with development of both the system and the setting. We have the core concepts down but not much else..
Just thought I'd let you all know about it
http://slavestate.bitterreign.com
On 4/2/2002 at 5:53pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: The Hive
Unless you mean that Vampires are Judeo/Christian, I disagree with your assessment that all horror games are based off this mythos. Lesse, CoC isn't, certainly. UA, not at all. IIRC, Chill wasn't, really. Some games like Kult and Whispering Vault might be said to have gothic elements, but are not based on a Judeo/Chistian mythology.
In fact, I can't think of one game that really sticks well to J/C mythology. They may use elements here or there that resemble the mythology, but their explanations are anything but J/C. Even in V:tM the subject of whether or not God exists or Satan is left somwhat open. And the other WOD stuff would seem to challenge the notion. Anyhow, you admit that your game would have such elements casually. What makes it different than all the other games that have these things, but the cosmology says they aren't "Hell" based?
So, is the J/C thing really bugging you, or is it some other issue? Do you mean that you want a less mystical horror? I'm not understanding your issue.
Also, are you familiar with Zero? It sounds a lot like your concept in a way. Also, I think that there is either an extant Matrix RPG or one in the works.
Mike
On 4/2/2002 at 6:06pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: The Hive
Hey,
Actually, Mike, I think that the majority of the White Wolf games glom onto Judeo-Christian terms from the outset - the "lineage of Cain" for example. That's not to say they do it well or with any relevance to what might be considered "real" Christian or religious issues, but that stuff is all over the place in terms of Color.
Most of the European games like Kult, including fantasy-horror like Gemini and SF-horror like The Mutant Chronicles, are heavily steeped in Church/Christian imagery, terms, and (in an adolescent way) issues.
But maybe all that is a side-issue anyway. I'm interested in this game, and I agree that "Zero" was the first thing that came to mind when reading the opening post. Granted, this one seems more oriented toward "any time and place," but the theme seems similar, possibly.
I'd like to know more - the website was heavy on Color (and granted I didn't delve too deeply). You know me; I wanna know about concrete Premise, about resolution mechanics, about character creation, and about reward systems ...
Best,
Ron
On 4/2/2002 at 6:20pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: The Hive
Ron Edwards wrote: Actually, Mike, I think that the majority of the White Wolf games glom onto Judeo-Christian terms from the outset - the "lineage of Cain" for example. That's not to say they do it well or with any relevance to what might be considered "real" Christian or religious issues, but that stuff is all over the place in terms of Color.
Most of the European games like Kult, including fantasy-horror like Gemini and SF-horror like The Mutant Chronicles, are heavily steeped in Church/Christian imagery, terms, and (in an adolescent way) issues.
Immagery and color, yes. But his game will admittedly have these things too in some small quantity. I thought the objection was with an actual J/C cosmology which very few have.
Anyhow, even conceding the Color point, that still leaves a lot of games with little to no J/C stuff. Considering the importance of CoC, I think that alone constitutes an important exception.
Anyhow, I'm interested too. I'm just wondering about the design goals. I'm assuming that Tyrant actually just wants to get into the specific cosmology that he's set up. As for the big Questions, I'd ask what is the source of the horror (without all those common J/C touchpoints that we usually rely on)? Is it the realization that you are part of the Hive, like Zero and The Matrix? Or that it controls your reality? A fear of lack of self-determination? Existentialist nausea?
And what will the PCs do in the game?
Mike
On 4/2/2002 at 7:40pm, Tyrant wrote:
The Horror (Of Figs)
As for the source of the Horror, The Hive is esentially being corrupted from within... and Like I said anything that man dreams of is possible, this means his nightmares as well... but is it real? Are you going to wake up from it? is it just a figment of your own twisted imaginings? You may even encounter something from another characters mind...
The focus of the horror come from the characters (Not just the player characters) innermost fears, desires and needs. The BIG horror is that the Hive is powerless and thus so are you... it's just a Jar, albeit a really big one... that opens itself once in awhile and lets out some horrible nasty.
The Point being that the very people the characters are trying to save are responsible for it all (or do the people even need saving?)
Just as a weak example: Joe is afraid of two things, Dogs and Darkness
In game this would be exploited by putting Joe in a situation where he is surrounded by darkness with the sounds of growling, dog breath.. all the things that make dogs who they are..
Of course that's not all I intend from writing this...
Mike: I have to VERY disagree with you on Kult... (In part I am one of the faces behind www.kult-rpg.org) The whole game is based off it, it seeps out of it like a cotton bucket, the whole Archons thing is entirely Judaic....
Vampires, yeah, again Christian in basis.. Not only for the Vainite (er Cainite) thing, but where did Dracula get his Vampirism? From rejecting God.
The main difference in the Hive is the fact that it's all in your head, in a way, collectively.
All of our fears and hopes are part of the Hive, it's essentially the wellspring of our creation... Say for instance you take Carl Jungs Collective Unconscious and cross-breed it with Platos Parable of the Cave
As far as the Elements of J/C mythology, yeah, I kinda have to include it. Why? because if I didn't it would be just like excluding Insanity, or Dreams, or anything else that has become so much a part of who we are...
But then I'm also including Far Eastern Myth, Native American Myth, Modern Psychology, even Modern day Science as part of the horror
For example Animal Totems:
The Hive is resposible for the creation of Archetypical Things, Dogs, Buildings, Rocks, even Cities. Everything has a corresponding Archetype (the Human side of this I need to work on so is isn't UA all to hell and back)
Thus we have the Archetypical Dog, which in The Hive serves as an Animal Totem.
The setting in this regard is open enough that a group of players could include anything... There are some people for example that believe in the CoC mythos
I would be insane to think I could include it all.. every mythos in the world would cover enough material to write Tomes upon tomes of stuff..
That in itself is another plus to the setting, if you want to throw in a Vampire, or a Deep One, you are free to do so, given the fact that someone believes it...
On 4/2/2002 at 7:47pm, George Pletz wrote:
Re: The Hive
Tyrant wrote:
I intend this to be a Horror game that transends time, (in other words you can play (As the same character) in any time frame) and is not based on Christian/Judaic mythology
The idea of disassociating from Christian/Judiac is an interesting one. Since your intent is to create a horror game, it may be difficult. It may not be the focus but it has to be adressed. The common challenge I have had is how to do just that. Since you are dealing with the unknown, it reflects back onto the dominant cosmology of the setting. Of course the roles that PCs will play in the game will effect
So I have to ask why is it important that The Hive not be connected to a specific time and place? It will be easier to remove Christianity/Judism from a modern setting than a historical one. Especially one set in Europe or Early America where Relgion is much more pervasive social force. Still when strange things happen to most people will turn to a spiritual leader of some stripe. (If it were set in a more Science Fiction type environment, they may turn a Scientist.)
While not central to the concept's symbology, the Christianity thing has to be dealt with. The belief powered nature of The Hive as you have put forth does remove a bit of it. But I can just imagine a group of monks encountering it. If The Hive codes itself in the belief system of those dealing with it, how will anyone know what's behind the veil?
Tyrant wrote:
White Light: Rudy Rucker
House of Leaves: Mark Z Danielewski
Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within
The Invisibles: Grant Morrison
Kult: Metropolis Games (Defunct)
Now that's a cool influence list! Interestingly enough most of it is more scientific in cast. The only one that I notice that doesn't have some sort of scientific slant is Kult. Were you thinking of having the players are part of an organiztion investigating the hive, regular folk or agents of The Hive?
george
On 4/2/2002 at 7:52pm, Laurel wrote:
RE: The Hive
Journal_Two.php at the web site seems to tackle initial Premise pretty well. Can the individual overcome the erosion of the encompassing? I'm interested in seeing more, particularly about character creation + character & player goals. The idea of human consciousness rotting out from within, cancerous, is fascinating.... and scary. At this juncture, the Hive could go either into overt monster horror (typical for RPGs) where the Monsters are very tangible, or it could move into less invoked, more provacative territory by making the manifestations of the Hive less tangible, more alien to cognition.
As an analogy: Matrix was a great action movie, but there was something about Pi that left me disturbed, questioning, unsettled, in the way really good drama/horror often does. Less splatter, no glam, harder to define and categorize, forcing me to think as well as experience.
I love any book, movie- or horror RPG- that causes me to feel a little disturbed and haunted as I'm walking away.
Laurel
On 4/2/2002 at 8:15pm, Tyrant wrote:
RE: Re: The Hive
George Pletz wrote:
So I have to ask why is it important that The Hive not be connected to a specific time and place? It will be easier to remove Christianity/Judism from a modern setting than a historical one. Especially one set in Europe or Early America where Relgion is much more pervasive social force. Still when strange things happen to most people will turn to a spiritual leader of some stripe. (If it were set in a more Science Fiction type environment, they may turn a Scientist.)
While not central to the concept's symbology, the Christianity thing has to be dealt with. The belief powered nature of The Hive as you have put forth does remove a bit of it. But I can just imagine a group of monks encountering it. If The Hive codes itself in the belief system of those dealing with it, how will anyone know what's behind the veil?
Actually the beliefs code themselves into the Hive, it's a symbiotic relationship
Take myself for example: (if I were an average person in the setting.)
I begin life wondering "where do I come from?"
As a Child I am exposed to several systems of belief (Though given my location and all it's different for me that some others) The main one being the Christian Myth (And personally I'm not saying it's JUST a myth) So I "get into" it, thus becoming Christian... further enforcing the Fact that God Exists, not just in my mind, but in that of the hive as well... it's at this point that the relationship feeds itself I believe, it feeds me more, I feed it back and so on... When I die, I go to a Heaven made just for me... or rather my "soul" goes to heaven, while my Intellect is recycled back into the Hive.
If I had been rasied in a Norse Village, my systems of belief would have been different, and so too the outcome after death.
Part of my attempts here are to combine existing systems into a unified whole.. for example (In the Hive) The whole reincarnation/past lives thing is a result of the Intellect being recycled
As for the Soul? Well if I was raised Atheist it simply wouldn't be there.... in essense it would meet oblivion after death.
Now a question might arise that for some reason of another can a recycled intellect meet a soul that was once connected to it? Yes it can, though I haven't gotten that far into the cosmology yet.. I have to assume that the Intellect will recognize the soul but not vice verse
George Pletz wrote:Tyrant wrote:
White Light: Rudy Rucker
House of Leaves: Mark Z Danielewski
Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within
The Invisibles: Grant Morrison
Kult: Metropolis Games (Defunct)
Now that's a cool influence list! Interestingly enough most of it is more scientific in cast. The only one that I notice that doesn't have some sort of scientific slant is Kult. Were you thinking of having the players are part of an organiztion investigating the hive, regular folk or agents of The Hive?
george
Thanks, for one thing I was lucky to have been raised the way I did.. The Reading List is small but I have alot more influences, Peter Carrol, Crowley, Gaiman, Lovecraft and so on and on and on..
I was raised in a family that was well read... and I never enjoyed much Television anyway.. so i read..
The characters in The Hive are of two sets, called Ghosts and Golems...
The Players are Ghosts, the ones among us that are very much like regular folk physically but through quirks in the process of recycling have unified themselves and are reborn with intact memories and "souls" (Still trying to come up with a better terminology for that one)
This is how they can be in many places and times at once
by the way guys, thanks for all the output here like I said on my own forum I'm not trying to rock the gaming world, but I would like to have a cohesive playable game open enough to include what YOU want in it
if any of you feel like dropping by the address is http://slavestate.bitterreign.com/defector
On 4/3/2002 at 4:02pm, Jürgen Mayer wrote:
RE: Re: The Hive
Tyrant wrote: The basic premise is that everyones reality is different, that the mind is capable of changing the universe if given the chance, however the core reality that we currently reside in is the result of the collective consciousness called the Hive
Hm, this sounds to me like the basic concept behind Mage: The Ascension, or did I get something wrong?
On 4/3/2002 at 4:48pm, Tyrant wrote:
RE: The Hive
IMO Mage is a far cry from the Hive...
A) It's not about power or magic
B) There is no big evil super power
C) Mages reality is static, but can change with magic The Hives Reality is fluid and ever changing without the use of anything but thought
D)Hive Characters are not part of covens, organization or Cabals
Reality in the Hive is a matter of perspective and while the majority of people see things in a static manner it's constantly changing and shaping itself
In Mage the characters are trying to save the world by stopping said superpower from saving the world
In the Hive the characters don't have a clue what they need to do in order to not only save "the world" but themselves as well.
From The Hive
What is the Hive?
The Hive is Old. Older than we as individuals, older than our own memory, it is the collection of our thoughts, our memories and our beings. It exists far beyond our limited comprehension of time and space, beyond our theories of the universe and beyond our concepts of an afterlife.
The Hive simply is, it is the basis of our instincts and our emotions the root of who we are, who we were and who we will become.
The Hive is far beyond what we conceive as life. It is the wellspring from which we flow, and we are all a part of it as we are a part of the world... the universe.
However the Hive is falling apart, decayed from thousands of years of anger and hatred. The Human consciousness has become it's cancer, rotting it from the inside. As the world around us become more and more hostile the Hive grows more and more insane, bringing to life those fears and horrors we have kept at bay for eons.
Perhaps now you can help save us all.
How can you save humanity when humanity is the cause of the problem in the first place? It's kind of like trying to stop a rock of crack from being a drug
On 4/3/2002 at 5:03pm, Jürgen Mayer wrote:
RE: The Hive
Tyrant wrote: IMO Mage is a far cry from the Hive...
I didn't say anything different, I just said that the basic concept - reality is subjective, our reality is based on the collective unconciousness, some people know how to change reality - is similar to Mage.
You branch off in a different direction from there...
On 4/3/2002 at 5:35pm, contracycle wrote:
RE: The Hive
I saw thwe similarities too; its difficult to tasckle a "malleable reality" setting without tripping over Mage, I guess.
The Hive could be a single technomancers paradigm, frex.
On 4/3/2002 at 6:12pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: The Hive
Hey, everything has similarities to something else, or we couldn't make heads or tails of it. I think that the elements in the Hive that are similar to Mage could be fashioned to be an improvement over Mage. In which case, it sounds like a good idea to me.
To say nothing of any new elements that may be introduced.
Mike
On 4/3/2002 at 7:54pm, Tyrant wrote:
RE: The Hive
Thanks for the clarification...
I appologize if I seemed rude.. I suppose I must accept that I live in a world where things are compared now..
For example when Little Fears hit the market I heard it compared to Kult for Kids..
*Sigh*
Anyway, taking that road, yes you could compare it to Mage, though I would be happier with a Kult comparison =)
On 4/3/2002 at 11:18pm, Wolfen wrote:
RE: The Hive
From The Hive
What is the Hive?
The Hive is Old. Older than we as individuals, older than our own memory, it is the collection of our thoughts, our memories and our beings. It exists far beyond our limited comprehension of time and space, beyond our theories of the universe and beyond our concepts of an afterlife.
The Hive simply is, it is the basis of our instincts and our emotions the root of who we are, who we were and who we will become.
The Hive is far beyond what we conceive as life. It is the wellspring from which we flow, and we are all a part of it as we are a part of the world... the universe.
However the Hive is falling apart, decayed from thousands of years of anger and hatred. The Human consciousness has become it's cancer, rotting it from the inside. As the world around us become more and more hostile the Hive grows more and more insane, bringing to life those fears and horrors we have kept at bay for eons.
Perhaps now you can help save us all.
I assume this is your "hook"? Like, the text on the back cover which tries to get players to buy it? If so, it's pretty good. Just a comment. :-)
On 4/4/2002 at 9:45am, Jürgen Mayer wrote:
RE: The Hive
Tyrant wrote: Anyway, taking that road, yes you could compare it to Mage, though I would be happier with a Kult comparison =)
It could just be that I played too much Mage and not enough Kult =)
On 4/4/2002 at 3:58pm, Tyrant wrote:
RE: The Hive
Shame on you Jürgen =)
But perfectly understandable given Kult's being out of print.. sorry I'm a huge fan of that game...
While I will agree on the similarities of Mage and The Hive, Kults view on reality is much closer... I'm somewhat inspired by it...
that being "Reality is an Illusion" In the Hive's case though, Reality may be an illusion, but that doesn't make any less real..
In other words, though it's an illusion, so is EVERYTHING else, there is no "true" reality out there for the characters to discover
On 4/4/2002 at 4:45pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: The Hive
Lance,
This thread is starting to wander. Now that we know about the game, is there a specific question or design concern that you can present for discussion?
Best,
Ron
On 4/4/2002 at 6:56pm, Tyrant wrote:
RE: The Hive
Lance? who dat?
Okay one major question:
Should I or should I not make Mythology (Of any kind) a central aspect of the setting?
In other words, I could make myth be the central point of the whole game or I could just use it as additional flavor...
I'd prefer the latter
On 4/4/2002 at 10:12pm, Garbanzo wrote:
RE: The Hive
My vote:
Go mythic. But I'm afraid I'm not understanding the question.
It seems like mythology (especially a roving omnivorous mythology) would provide grounding and some common touchstones, preventing random surrealism. From where I'm sitting, you're going to get more mileage, esp more horror mileage from having consistencies to violate, and terrible consistencies that you see looming, about to violate you (cf Sandman: The Kindly Ones).
The color text you posted seemed all about mythology:
...
The Hive simply is, it is the basis of our instincts and our emotions the root of who we are, who we were and who we will become. ..
But I think I'm missing the question. If you cut out mythology (read by me to mean a complicated and meaningful set of relationships connecting the physical and metaphysical), then what's left? What's the other option?
-Matt