While working on character generation, Josh noted that it's usually better to croc stats for faster advancement, e.g., going for a 1-2-7 or 1-3-6 spread, rather than a 3-3-4. This I consider a feature, not a bug.

He then noted the degenerate case: Create a PC with Lore 8, Stamina 1, Will 1. If this PC blows the initial Humanity roll, then Humanity goes to zero, effectively losing the character before the start of play.

"Well, don't do that!" I said. No one did, nor did anyone actually have the slightest intention of doing so. (The highest Lore score among the PCs is 4. Our most degenerate case is Stamina 2, Will 7, Lore 1.) But, did we misread the rules? And, if not, is there a better answer than, "Don't do that"?

-Lisa

Lisa wrote:
"Well, don't do that!" I said. No one did, nor did anyone actually have the slightest intention of doing so. (The highest Lore score among the PCs is 4. Our most degenerate case is Stamina 2, Will 7, Lore 1.) But, did we misread the rules? And, if not, is there a better answer than, "Don't do that"?

-Lisa

Gamers.

No twink, no feature, no bug. Josh is talking himself into corners, I'm afraid.

When a person I'm about to play Sorcerer with starts getting into this sort of thing, I tell him to stop. Not because he's breaking the game and I don't want to hear it, but because he's grossly wrong, and there's no point in discussing it. When you play, and when you follow the rules, these issues are all self-correcting and all drive straight into functional play.

One rules point, from the book: Will should not start lower than 3.

Best,
Ron

Ron wrote: Gamers.

One rules point, from the book: Will should not start lower than 3.

What lisa was referring to as a twink is actually my exploring the consequences of a note that you -really- need to have a highish will or stamina to have a Sorceror character that can ever succeed at pretty much anything -- to the point that, yes, a 8 lore character would have a better than 50% chance of starting the campaign dead.

My "twink" point is actually a 8/1/1 character (8 will) -- which allows a character to start with one of the more powerful demons with relative safety, which can cover for their weaknesses in other aspects -- a 7 power demon with Boost: Lore will allow them to summon up other demons of similar power if and when they need them, and with 8 will, 8 cover, and a powerful, largely under control demon, they're going to be pretty formidable...and with 8 humanity, it's likely that they'll be increasing their other attributes regularly as long as stories end with some frequency.

Sure, the GM is free (and specifically enjoined) to hit all the players with humanity checks and press them -- the game is really about the characters and their decisions, as far as I can tell, not about how powerful the characters can be or make themselves.  But that doesn't mean that looking at the numbers and trying to figure out the consequences of them isn't useful.

Hello,

Ah, thanks for clarifying, Josh - the 8 Will starting character is much more fruitful to discuss than the 8 Lore one.

First, yes, you are absolutely right that a good solid sorcerer should be well-rounded in the three basic scores. And second, yes, you are absolutely right that when push comes to shove, Will is a tad more equal than the other two. All by design.

I've seen a character who was close to what you describe, actually: Stamina 1, Will 7, Lore 2. To make matters even more interesting, the character was quadriplegic. And you know what? That was a rocking character, especially with that bad-ass demon she started with (quite likely the toughest-ever player-built demon I've seen in Sorcerer!).

It works really, really well. The best part about it is that Humanity checks came fast and furiously with very little need on my part to push that character any more than other character. The other thing worth considering, too, is that a big demon typically matches or beats a Will of 7 or 8, especially if you're talking about the kind of abilities-combos that will compensate for low Stamina, especially ... so "under control" is perhaps a bit overconfident ... and demon-character conflict is effectively built into any character who starts this way.

Oh yeah .... although the rules don't push this one way or another, characters don't typically improve "faster" than one another in Sorcerer. I've found that people tend to play toward resolving Kickers essentially at the same rates, mainly through pacing their own conflicts relative to one another. The GM participates in this, obviously, but doesn't have to put more effort into managing the pacing than anyone else - as I've written in the past, after a couple of sessions, most Bangs are player-generated anyway. And it's very, very rare that a character does not improve in a score per Kicker resolution.

Again, thanks for posting, Josh - your clarification totally changed my whole view on this conversation. Yes, indeed, turning over the numbers in your mind is a fine thing to do. My initial rejection does bear some thought too, though ... a lot of the secondary mechanics of Sorcerer are very, very strong and consistent, but are equally hard to perceive just from reading the primary mechanics. They'll only be observed through play.

Best,
Ron

And, hey, if I hadn't misunderstood and asked, we wouldn't have been alerted to the passage explaining that Will really should be 3 or higher!

-Lisa