This is a fairly out-there thought I had a while ago and I just want to ask what people think of the idea. This has to do with the Matrix and Aliens and their powerful visual imagery, and the way we interact with that, and whether or not it could be used for RPG purposes.

The visual systems in mammals are very well developed, and quite a lot of the brain dedicated to their use. A huge part of our daily sense of self is located in our perception, both in content of what we see and how and at what we look. Visual media are our dominant media, I think becuase of this direct, if you like, access to us (or perhaps exploitation of, or both). Anyway, is there room for a more direct use of visual image in RPG? Partly I'm thinking of the way things like MtG work very visually, albeit fairly randomly, and things like movie spinoffs - star trek tech manual and things.

Could RPG's be designed in the medium of comics? More accurately, benefit from being so designed?

At the extreme case - could you produce an RPG or supplement that had NO text?

I can, to the extent of my abilities, imitate birds, guns, voices - but I can only approximately image verbally. I could narrate a scene at X words per second, but if I gave you a picture of it you word absorb countless tiny details in seconds.

So, maybe settings could be realised with images - interiors, exteriors, surfaces, items, gatherings, costume. GM's could probably create personalities simply from looking at faces - more accurately, "cast" a visually realised NPC (or PC). A portrait accompanied by caption text. A dark and brooding castle on the hill accompanied by a deliberately ambiguous reference, ala HW, perhaps. Splatbooks - could they be carried off through a set of images, with a grudging skimp of mechanics in the back, of people and places.

Obviously I'm, not talking about just a random set - I mean a themed, structured visualisation of the proposed game space.

OK - I know, impossibly expensive. Lets speculate, rather - how far can you go with image? How far can you go with image alone? I guess this is in publishing becuase I am talking about a certain kind of object, that would have to be produced and sold - or perhaps it could be done with a website, or CD. The point is, I mean some form of actual implementation. In principle how far could a visual heavy model be driven, lets say. Do people think they would find a primarily visual product specifically aimed at being an RPG setting interesting?

To an extent this might imply the presumption that the game group would use their own mechanics, that might be entirely detached from the purpose of the product. The product is merely to realise space - not construct events or story, perhaps not even characters except implicitly as above. Or perhaps deliberately, manic villains and foul demons in glorious technicolour or deep recess. Place, I guess, rather than space.

Anyway, think theres any gold in those hills?

Someone, I think it was Jared, or maybe Clinton, was working on an idea that involved a superhero RPG where you got a blank comic book, and you filled it in as you went.

I think that one could do what you propose, but why? Or rather, why not just do all the art you propose, and have words as well?

Mike

Hey,

Gareth, if I'm reading you correctly, you're talking about all sorts of aspects of an RPG as a product: "learn to play," "prep to play," and "actually play."

Several RPGs have used comics format to illustrate or explain some aspect of the material; usually it's basically a comics story or scene with characters acting out some aspect of the rules. Guardians, a rather low-grade supers RPG, had a lot of comics pages; Champions Millenium provided a much more upscale version of the same. However, I think that's a minimal example of what you're talking about, right?

The game that's gone way farther, into all three arenas that I listed above, is Everway. I've played a lot of Everway, traditionally, with cards and at the table (as opposed to the popular and somewhat overly-seriously-mystical internet play). I think that its methods were quite strong, taken as individual units of play, and they went a long way towards establishing not only "physical" content (ie what something looks like) but also thematic content, especially multicultural issues.

Best,
Ron

Hell, Steve Jackson Games went so far as to make some books in a Comic Book format.. IE, size, pages and weight

I think they look cool and would buy them up in a hurry if I liked GURPS

The only problem here I think is content, there is only so much you can put into a small book like that

I'm not trying to be smug here, but I sense you are reaching for something that has already been explored.

contracycle wrote: The visual systems in mammals are very well developed, and quite a lot of the brain dedicated to their use. A huge part of our daily sense of self is located in our perception, both in content of what we see and how and at what we look.

contracycle wrote: At the extreme case - could you produce an RPG or supplement that had NO text?

So, maybe settings could be realised with images - interiors, exteriors, surfaces, items, gatherings, costume. GM's could probably create personalities simply from looking at faces - more accurately, "cast" a visually realised NPC (or PC).

Obviously I'm, not talking about just a random set - I mean a themed, structured visualisation of the proposed game space.

OK - I know, impossibly expensive. Lets speculate, rather - how far can you go with image? How far can you go with image alone? I guess this is in publishing because I am talking about a certain kind of object, that would have to be produced and sold - or perhaps it could be done with a website, or CD. The point is, I mean some form of actual implementation. In principle how far could a visual heavy model be driven, lets say. Do people think they would find a primarily visual product specifically aimed at being an RPG setting interesting?

contracycle wrote: Could RPG's be designed in the medium of comics? More accurately, benefit from being so designed?

I'm not thinking of something thats interactive in any sense - IMO the big picture is for RPG to become the storyboard mechanism of a future VR entertainment, but thats over the horizon.

'Kay - take SLA industries. Nice game, sucky mechanics IMO. Very Good art, very moody - in fact I'd go so far as to say - the art and the mood are the primary draws. OK, all the text on Mr Slayer and the world of progress and whatnot is kinda interesting, but how much of that setting exposition could have been realised through imagery?

So imagine this was sitting on the shelf in the RPG store. 50 -odd pages, all of them colour plates. You ARE buying EXACTLY what you see on the cover. Inside we have some panning-type helicopter establishing shots - Mort from the air, Mr Slayers corporate offices from outside, various bits of the city - gleaming towers in the corporate sector, waste dirt and debris in the downtown zones. Shiver cops on their bikes, a busy street scene. A couple of pics of props and serials much like they already have. Critters in their (un)natural habitat - gruseome Carrions, semi-dismembered manchines. Furthermore, it includes common places like the BPN hall, or an operatives apartment - plus outside shot of the building. Add portraits - show clothing, hairstyle, jewelry, colours, individuals, groups, meetings, club interiors, down-and-outs.

From this as a resource, you construct your actual game. Possibly such a thing would need no more text than a small paragraph of maybe a dozen words or a bit more per page. Perhaps in practical terms you would need to include more explanatory text than I am envisioning at the moment - but the idea would essentially be to divorce the setting product from the game product.

Now, you have a copy of OTE, or Fudge, or Sorcerer, or even HW. If the game is mechanically focussed, but divorced from setting - ala Sorcerer - then the visual product is backdrop, setting, prop, aide memoire. It sits on the coffee table... players browse it, their mental imagery is continually refreshed. (I am talking about the exact opposite of invoking our mental abstractions, Fang). When you say "you see a menacing figure in a dark coat" you show as much as tell.

Arguably, such a visual product would not need to be as coherent as a trad RPG setting; that would not necessarily be important. Years ago as a kid, I had a book called Space Patrol which had a lot of pictures, and was written as if a pseudo-recruiting brochure. All the text was "in character" but the pictures were essentially a random collection of SF book cover images. The accompanying text merely told a story which fitted the picture - constructed a suitable story that would fit. So a pic of two ships firing at one another would be accompanies by some text exlpaining what captain so-and-so was doing here and how this exchange came about - the case history, if you will. I think that with a suitable set of visual props, creative players and GM's will be able to construct suitable chains of relationships and consequence to render much of the body text superfluous.

Such a product could be game generic - a "creepy cityscape" could be used for any number of games. Several products could be place specific - place X in such a setting, place Y (but still independant of the actual RPG-as-game proper). A western town, showing the interiors of every/most building, the approach from the hills, the banks of the nearby river, the Eagles Nest crag - again, usable by quite an array of games, assemble mechanics and backstory to taste.

I have "read" several books which appear to operate on this principle. Anyone familiar with Gnomes IIRC, or Lady Cottingdens Book of Pressed Fairies? They rely purely on the cool factor, they have no purpose, no intent beyond being a passive object. But it seems to me that such a mechanism - almost a pure implementation of the conceit - could be exploited for FPG setting.

Maybe I'll be able to find a more concrete example, I shall have a look.

Hey,

I think we're very much on the same wavelength here, and with a slight difference in the medium to be imitated (70s art-book, not comics), it's what I'm planning on doing with the physical design of Trollbabe.

Best,
Ron

Perhaps it's me just being "old School" but I like to see mechanics in the game...

Sure, the setting come first and foremost, and stunning visuals is key to a good game...

But laying out a game with no text? If that were the case you might as well make a bunch of one shot "silent" comics... I'm not saying it's a dumb idea by any means.. but would it sell?

For an idea like this to go anywhere the art would have to be VERY VERY top notch... by a recognized artist

My suggestion (And only that) is do it, but put some words into it too... maybe a few pages in the back of the book to layout some simple mechanics and some setting...

Tyrant,

Opinions differ about what "comes first" in a role-playing game, and some folks here put setting as a distinct second place rather than first ...

But more to the point, I agree with you that a pure pictures-only presentation would probably not qualify as a functional role-playing game all by itself. What I have in mind for Trollbabe, for instance, is a fairly slim and leanly-written RPG text, but with large and central visuals throughout. The pictures-only presentation that Gareth describes would be, I'd think, supplemental or "game-aid" material of some kind.

I also think that "would it sell," as a question, is a tremendously broad topic - what we can work with perhaps better is "is it functional" in terms of a role-playing text, and move into marketing, publication, and economics as a later discussion.

Best,
Ron

Like it or hate it, I think the real future for "visually intoxicating" RPGs is going to be CRPGs, and not print. When offered the opportunity to passively look at stunning graphics and use those pictures to vocalize stories, or offered the opportunity to dynamically interact with stunning graphics and give vocal commands which change the graphics themselves as well as everything else.... most gamers will choose the latter.

The strength in print RPGs lies elsewhere, and I'm very convinced that there's enough strength that print RPGs will be around for a long time.

Laurel wrote: Like it or hate it, I think the real future for "visually intoxicating" RPGs is going to be CRPGs, and not print. When offered the opportunity to passively look at stunning graphics and use those pictures to vocalize stories, or offered the opportunity to dynamically interact with stunning graphics and give vocal commands which change the graphics themselves as well as everything else.... most gamers will choose the latter.

The strength in print RPGs lies elsewhere, and I'm very convinced that there's enough strength that print RPGs will be around for a long time.

This thread has spurred two points of curiosity for me.

Laurel wrote: Like it or hate it, I think the real future for "visually intoxicating" RPGs is going to be CRPGs, and not print. When offered the opportunity to passively look at stunning graphics and use those pictures to vocalize stories, or offered the opportunity to dynamically interact with stunning graphics and give vocal commands which change the graphics themselves as well as everything else.... most gamers will choose the latter.

The strength in print RPGs lies elsewhere, and I'm very convinced that there's enough strength that print RPGs will be around for a long time.

Mike Holmes wrote: I think this is actually one of Gareth's points, and one I agree with. What he is working towards is making RPGs more like the CRPG media so we can eventually merge them. Like he intimated, I have felt for quite a while now that I am now simply training myself to be a CRPG writer when they become complex enought to actually handle full tabletop-RPG effects (not long now).

That is indeed where I see the Big Picture going.

Le Joueur wrote: The reason is similar to what happens with the Pressed Faerie Book, it only captures a small segment of the overall book market (even possibly a subset of 'coffeetable books'); a visual-only supplement could only appeal to a subset of gamers who might get a system-independant product.

contracycle wrote:

Le Joueur wrote: The reason is similar to what happens with the Pressed Faerie Book, it only captures a small segment of the overall book market (even possibly a subset of 'coffeetable books'); a visual-only supplement could only appeal to a subset of gamers who might get a system-independant product.

You'd want to push it [at] comic shops too, to go on the same shelf they keep the Geiger.

For my part, I see a big need for art in a product. Not just for the usual 'place keeper' ("Where is that chart?" - "By the nude elf.") or as space-filler/padding (if I ever see another 1" drawing of a pile of dice...), I see the art as one of the primary ways to communicate 'the look' of the game to the customer. As much as I don't play White Wolf's products, I have always appreciated how well the art in Vampire: the Masquerade really carries the visual 'feel' of the game.

Le Joueur wrote: Until we can solve either the 'adding compelling visuals to MUDDs and MUSHs' problem or expand on the nascent 'gamemaster toolkit' aspect of those rare 'role-playing games on the internet' (especially when it comes to 'talking for the non-player characters' when the gamemaster is doing something else), I can't see computer role-playing games even coming close to whats possible with their 'print' relatives.

Laurel wrote:

For my part, I see a big need for art in a product. Not just for the usual 'place keeper' ("Where is that chart?" - "By the nude elf.") or as space-filler/padding (if I ever see another 1" drawing of a pile of dice...), I see the art as one of the primary ways to communicate 'the look' of the game to the customer. As much as I don't play White Wolf's products, I have always appreciated how well the art in Vampire: the Masquerade really carries the visual 'feel' of the game.

I'm of a mixed opinion. I think that the trend of "game book as art" of which WW is a big factor in have an enormous place in the RPG world. VtA was the phenomenon it was in no small part to the mood, tone, and visual effects of the corebook.

However, beautiful stunning game books don't make the actual play of the game better, and in a way serve to disempower the GM and players by drawing all the focus onto the product, not what you can do with the product. This isn't to say I don't dig a gorgeous book- I can't wait to see Godlike now that I've heard about the artwork because I'm working on a similar idea (artistically speaking, not game concept or premise) for a different project... and I have heard that the art does exactly that: conveys the premise of the game to the customer better than filler art ever would.

I just think there's such a thing as too much focus on art and style for a game book.

Hey Fang,

To my knowledge, only one person on the Forge has made any comment like the one you describe. It was Jared and he was suggesting providing two products, one with and one without art, buyer's choice, as PDFs. I think it's a little off the beam to suggest that text-without-art is a "common" response at this site, i.e., made by a lot of its members. In fact, if you look at production and design threads about book-publishing, you see that the veterans unilaterally acknowledge the primary power of good cover images and good visual design for all aspects of the book.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote: I think it's a little off the beam to suggest that text-without-art is a "common" response at this site,

I think of art as a "value added" sort of thing. For me, it's completely unneccessary. I do a lot of that "filling in" that's been discussed above, so much so that art just seems superfluous. So I have no problems with games that have little or no art. I don't mind it, however, and if you can make the product look nice, why not? So it's just an extra from my POV.

OTOH, I'm probably very much a minority on this. The other side of the coin is that I've heard lots of people say they won't even touch an ugly or bland product.

So, I'd say its a big YMMV.

Mike

Hey,

Well, as I said, Everway provides a fine model for review. I've played the game a lot and I think its visual elements, both in character creation and during play, are effective. To relate it to another thread, its Color borders on System, which is exactly what Gareth is driving at. I'd definitely like to see games designed which operate off of the Everway aesthetic, in a mechanics sense.

Zero provides more of the art-house approach, which is to say making the book itself an "artifact" that revs up the user's interest in play. Certainly other games have taken this approach (L5R, Deadlands, Earthdawn and other FASA games, all the Planescape stuff for AD&D2, and the upcoming version of Nobilis) - the book itself is a coffee-table object that someone might enjoy as such, with no reference to role-playing at all. (D&D3 comes to mind as well, especially the Player's Handbook.) Zero and Planescape are interesting because they emphasized the single-artist, single-vision as a major design factor.

I'm not too confident about that route ... Production costs create(d) a real problem for all of these games, as they did for Everway, and Laurel is absolutely right that in many ways, the tactic actually rewarded the failure to play. It's a thorny problem, especially if we're thinking about a playable game and not supplemental material.

I've been giving a lot of thought to Trollbabe lately, and although its primary form will be a black-and-white PDF, that PDF is going to be designed much more like an art-house or artist-gallery book. I'm still figuring out the details, though.

Best,
Ron

P.S. Since playing Everway a lot a few years ago, I have become the image-handout demon-GM. Nearly every session, I have a ton of visual stuff to pass out and often bring in art-books to help convey a tone or even specific images. They are supplemental and intended as inspiration, as I strongly think that our imaginative product is the top priority and don't want to replace that effort with looking at a picture.

While I like great artwork as much as the next roleplayer, I have to say that, personally a totally art-based roleplaying game might detract from the experience.

When I roleplay I use my imagination in the interpretation of the game, art is a point of reference, style and feeling as opposed to the game itself. I guess what I'm saying is that a group of players around a table is going to be relying on the ability to communicate and connect with each other and a product comprised of 95% artwork may not be the best medium for that.

Eugene Zee

Another possible problem with art-centric gaming: what happens when you want to go somewhere for which there isn't a picture? Locations invented by the GM could become much less vibrant than pre-imagined locations due to the lack of accompanying visuals (unless the GM is a skilled artist, which I am diametrically not).

Le Joueur wrote:
In this way, I see the strength of role-playing games is that the 'purveyor of visuals' works together with the 'players' to end up with a result neither might expect. That is one of the main reasons I stress sharing over everything in Scattershot. No matter how advanced computer role-playing games (especially network-based ones, like Phantasy Star Online) have gotten, I have only just begun to see offering that allow customers to create, populate, manipulate, and interact with their own worlds.

Another strength I see in 'print' role-playing games is what I alluded to earlier. The power of archetypes and fragmentary description (amplified by shared genre expectations) that can create a far more rich visual experience in the mind's eye than many computer games have, and is far more flexible. Coupling the richness of the participants' imaginations with the feeling of 'really making a difference' in the shared experience makes 'print' role-playing games still very unattainable in comparison with those based on visuals presented by computer hardware.

I'd love to get my hands on a copy of Everway. Some of the things I've read make me think it isn't the kind of game I'd play much, necessarily, but it sounds like a joy to simply experience.

Back to cRPGs for a second. In our case, there were some deliberate efforts made to try and make Children of the Sun into something that had the hint of a computer game underneath it. I wanted it to be subtle, but there are some things there. I think the best example is the back cover of the book.

The back cover was designed to be like the back of a computer game much more so than the back of an RPG book. I scanned the backs of several titles and sent them to Jac and we talked about what we were trying to achieve. I'm very pleased with the way it turned out. There are multiple overlapping character portraits on the left side set at various angles with all the text offset to the right.

As for the original premise of the thread, would it be acceptable to feature large pieces of artwork with very short text bits scattered about the page illustrating various points? I'm thinking of something DaVinci-esque or along the lines of the journal from Phillip Jose Farmer's series The Dungeon.