Hey,

I'm reading through the "infamous five in order" and am currently on the "Mainstream: A revision"(http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?t=4223) I'm currently working for Barnes & Nobles and thought I'd offer a few observations. Take these observations with a grain of salt.

In other words, an X-Men movie brings comics fans into the theaters, but it doesn't bring theater-goers into the comics store.]

You do realize, of course, that D&D is a big stinking albatross to Hasbro right now, and they're almost certainly been looking to shitcan it since last Christmas, don't you?

Hello,

I can't figure out your point about the movies/comics. Nothing you've said seems to indicate that movies would drive comics sales; in fact, the presence of X-Men in the bargain bin would seem to support my points. I don't see the instant connection between (a) "kids like the Narnia movie and want Narnia books" and (b) "kids will buy comics." Maybe I'm just not understanding; could you re-state?

My sources for the Hasbro comments are Hasbro employees, Hasbro/WotC ex-employees, and others besides myself who've spoken to both of them. I don't expect my claim to be sacred or even necessarily accurate, but I think it's consistent with how Hasbro has been handling the product.

There's no particular reason to debate any of this, though. It's OK with me if you don't agree with one or another of my perceptions about how things are. What matters a lot more is the point of that thread - that "mainstream" and "alternative" are reversed concepts in gamer-culture, especially concerning the concept I'm calling "D&D fantasy."  What do you think of that point?

Best,
Ron

Hey Ron,

Thanks for responding, sorry about my confusing post. I mostly agree with "Mainstream: A revision", I just wanted to add a thought.

Ron wrote:
Hello,

I can't figure out your point about the movies/comics. Nothing you've said seems to indicate that movies would drive comics sales; in fact, the presence of X-Men in the bargain bin would seem to support my points. I don't see the instant connection between (a) "kids like the Narnia movie and want Narnia books" and (b) "kids will buy comics." Maybe I'm just not understanding; could you re-state?

Unless the term 'bargain' means something different than when I worked in book sales, 'bargain' means "this has not sold and we're offering it at cost because we're going to pulp them otherwise and we'd like to recoup some of our investment."  The books that don't end up in Bargain are the ones that can be sent back to the publisher; not all books are bought under the same contract.

Joshua wrote:
Unless the term 'bargain' means something different than when I worked in book sales, 'bargain' means "this has not sold and we're offering it at cost because we're going to pulp them otherwise and we'd like to recoup some of our investment."  The books that don't end up in Bargain are the ones that can be sent back to the publisher; not all books are bought under the same contract.

Hello,

I will share my interpretation of the information you've provided. Please understand that I'm not trying to convince you or tell you you're wrong, but I think it's useful for people to see where I'm coming from about the same info.

1. I interpret "bargain bin" exactly as Joshua does. Comics' presence in it tells me that the store cannot unload these at the profit they'd like to, so they have to try to unload them for less profit, in hopes of making any at all.

2. I have been hearing and reading this phrase

A popular movie drives sales of related merchandise.

If a kid buys X-Men, he might like it and get into other superhero comics. It isn't certain, but he's been exposed to the genre, and that can't hurt.

So, Ron, here's the question.  Do you have access to sales data to back this theory up?  Can you post any actual numbers to support your position at all?

Hello Lloyd,

I stated very explicitly that I'm not trying to convince Lampros, you, or anyone else. This is not a college debate or a corporate policy session. You will simply have to lose this whole "oh yeah? prove it" line of thought. I'm not interested in whether you agree with me.

All I expect or would want is for someone to match their own observations to what I'm saying, and to make his or her own decision, rather than repeating the mantra.

Best,
Ron

Hi,

Over the last few years, I've seen a lot of movies based on comics come out.  I've also seen a lot of comic book stores close. 

The owners and folks who work at these places tell me about the minimum "extra sales" that emerge, which are usually someone looking into that specific license.  Those folks show up once, get the book based on the movie they were looking for, and never show up again.  Occasionally a parent shows up looking for merchandise for their children.  Again, one time sale, if that.  Most parents and non-comic heads are usually too intimidated by the massive selection and the "weirdness" of a place (yes, even nice comic stores that aren't weird), and instead run to Wal-mart or Barnes & Nobles where they can get the same thing.

More telling, is the Dark Horse owned store in my area.  It's in a mall, just below movie theatres.  When Sin City & Hellboy hit the big screen, massive amounts of merchandise appeared.  After the hype died down, most of the merchandise was sent back to the warehouse, it didn't sell.  Even then, there's a lot of merchandise on the bargain rack.  I could get a complete collection of the Hellboy graphic novels at $6 each.  That doesn't bode well.

Ultimately, you could make a Spiderman Fruit Juicer, but if I'm not in the market for juicers, it doesn't matter how much you brand it, I don't need one.  Same thing applies for rpgs- people instead buy figures, boardgames, Monopoly based on a movie,  videogames, or card games- but they don't go out of their way looking for rpgs. 

Chris

Bankuei wrote:
... and instead run to Wal-mart or Barnes & Nobles where they can get the same thing.

An interesting case study of comics creating a trend that movies later use is "Teenage Mutant Nija Turtles". From what I've read, the creator thought of the idea and saw it being a great plastic doll with potential to make films of it. To help sell this idea to the toy makers and movie guys he wrote the comic. It was an underground hit and lead to the toys, cartoons and movies.

This is an example of someone seeing the world the way Ron describes it and using that to his advantage in the greater market place.

I know I'm not so devious. My goals are to sell games and establish Matrix Games as a part of the hobby. Still ambitious but not nearly so ambitious as toy turtles.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

To clarify: I'm not too starry eyed. I'm trying to think how to create a chain like the one which got me into RPGs:

My parents got me a Nintendo, and then I got a subscription to Nintendo Power, and then I got into Final Fantasy through a story in the magazine, and into other crunchy RPGs through D&D, and then into less crunch heavy RPGs, and finally over to this forum.

I imagine a lot of kids get into comics by X-Men Movie - X-Men Comic - other superhero comics - comics generally.

Obviously, not everyone who starts one piece of the chain goes the whole way, which is why the chain is hard to measure - and why relatively few people make it all the way.

We have to work with some chain that's already out there, since we can't really create our own. Movies should not be discounted as an element of the chain.

Anyway, this is another topic, so I'm going to start another thread.

And of course, it isn't a bussiness meeting.

MatrixGamer wrote: From what I've read, the creator thought of the idea and saw it being a great plastic doll with potential to make films of it. To help sell this idea to the toy makers and movie guys he wrote the comic. It was an underground hit and lead to the toys, cartoons and movies.

Already PM'ed him about it, but: Turtles came about as a parody of the two popular books of the day, X-Men (dimension hopping (at the time) teenage mutants) and Frank Miller's run on Daredevil (ninjas), including such wonderful injokes as The Foot as opposed to Marvel's The Hand as the ninja organization in question. I imagine theres a lot more material in there, but thats mostly what survived commercialism, though I can't help but imagine Shredder's armor and such stems from Wolverine to a degree...

All right, that's enough about the Turtles.

In the interest of forum sanitation, let's start a new thread. Note! The topic of this one is not shut down at all - it's worth discussing. Let's just try to have a thread that inquires about something important and yields sensible discussion about it.

Remember folks, just because someone brings up X, and you know something about X which shows you know more than him, doesn't mean you have to talk about X too. That is geek bullshit. What matters is the point he was making with X, and whether you want to contribute to that.

Best,
Ron

lampros wrote: We have to work with some chain that's already out there, since we can't really create our own. Movies should not be discounted as an element of the chain.