I've been working on the idea of creating a minis game that uses some of the narr supportive techniques that folks around here have developed. A discussion of those possibilities took place a long while back in a thread called Minis and rpgs:thoughts on new directions?. My goal has been to create a kid friendly game that gamer parents can use to introduce their young'uns to rpgs generally, and to encourage proactive, collaborative/cooperative play styles in those kids. My more sinister and previously unrevealed goal is to encourage adult gamers to play with minis more by getting them to think about the minis as more than just place holders for positioning or tactical considerations. I'd like to encourage the use of minis in a fashion similar to the use of the vision cards in Everway, as a jumping off point for the creation of play material.

Inspirations:
Besides just plain liking minis personally, I've found the H.G. Wells' relatively unknown book, Floor Games ( downloadable in pdf here) to be a primary inspiration for the style of game I'm looking for. Closer to home, Universalis, Chris Engle's Matrix Games, The Nightime Animals Save the World, and Shadows have all served as inspirational material in terms of possible techniques I'd like to borrow. Prime Time Adventures, the newest addition to my game library, also provided some very important inspiration, despite my initial trepidation about using the character-issue based conflict res that is the core of that game (For more about my personal phobias, go over here; incidently, I got over it).

The play:
The game started off in a style that my daughter, Threnody, and I have used before and essentially follows the same pattern that Wells used with his sons all those years ago. We pull out the toy collection, as much of it as we feel like bringing out, and start setting up the Village and countryside cooperatively ( unlike Wells, we generally limit ourselves to a tabletop rather than an entire rooms' floor). Once an agreeable set up has been put out, we begin populating the village from the collection of figures available.

In our case, we use traditional rpg/minis game figures. The collection is a little biased at this point. It tends to favor civillians, fantasy villagers, and some intersting monsters. Mixed in with that are Victorian and 1920s adventurer types from CoC. Clearly military types are generally shunned, although being rpgs figures there tends to still be a fair bit of weaponry floating around. The type of figures in the collection has a huge impact on the style of games. Wells also noticed this effect, and goes in to some detail in his book about his desire to see more civillian and less soldier figures produced to play with ( to the extent of having a page sized illustration of figure types he wants- I personally like the Suffragette best-check out the pdf linked above).

The Village:
In this case, the geography took the form of the Green Griffon Inn ( a collection of fantasy pub resin pieces that has been the core location in our prior games), a couple of paper model fantasy houses downloaded from various internet sites surrounding the pub, a bridge and river at the outskirts of the village, and a haunted house on the opposite side of the river inhabited by a pair of witches ( sisters), their familiars, and a brood of naughty vampire children. The village inhabitants wereprimarily fantasy villagers, a few anthromorhic Cat people and a smattering of CoC characters.

Once we were set up, I attempted to use some rules I'd cooked up and called A Cauldrn of Magic Beans. As it turned out in play, those rules, well, suck, so we quickly dumped them.

First lesson I learned: Sometimes that lovely design just doesn't deliver. Scrap and run with what works. Keep it for later reconsideration and influence on a better design.

How we actually ended up playing:
We took turns starting scenes. Thren didn't want to jump in quite yet on setting up a scene, so I took some suggestions and we decided the first important* scene would be in the pub, would involve four female explorers/adventurers who'd wandered into town by some undescribed magical effect, and would involve a very conservative merchant who would accidently cause conflict by trying to help the "obviously lost and incapable ladies who were without the benefit of male protection".

[*We'd actually attempted a couple of other scenes that while expanding on the setting and providing background, ended up not being very engaging. It was the realization of just how unengaging those scenes were that caused me to try a more PTA style approach to this scene and the subsequent scenes.]

In this scene, I took the part of the merchant, and really tried to play up his attitudes about women, something almost certainly guaranteed to rile up Thren! Threnody ran with it, playing up the reactions ( first person) of the lead explorer ( a Maggie Mead-esque type named Carmen) and a sympathetic waitress at the Inn. When things were really coming to a boil, I called for a conflict resolution. I asked Threnody what she wanted to happen, then stated what I wanted to happen, making sure that either result would leave open more opportunities for later conflicts. We ended up doing a simple coin flip, with the end result that the waitress took it upon herself to throw the merchant out and the adventurers made a connection at the pub (Thren's result).

Second lesson learned: This narr stuff is some kinda cool. By the time we'd reached resolution, both Thren and I were pumped. I also discovered that my own fear of reaching the boiling point, stepping back and discussing options, then drawing ( well, flipping) a result would kill the momentum was unfounded ( my major concern with PTA upon my first reading).

The second scene flowed pretty naturally from the first, with the waitress having a showdown with the Pub owner, her gruff ex-( fantasy) adventurer brother-in-law regarding authority in the bar. Again, a bit of back and forth first person roleplaying was followed by a boiling point moment. Following the success of the previous scene, we followed the same method for resolving this one. Stakes were named ( If I won, Fryd would re-establish himself as the alpha male and his hot-headed sister in-law would follow his lead regarding conduct in the Inn in the future. If Thren won, Griselda would come into her own and Fryd would be forced to treat her as an equal in the future. Thren won.)

In scenes three and four, Thren was grooving on how this whole thing worked and took the initiative to frame the next two scenes. Scene three took place outside of the pub and involved fall out from the conversation prior to the merchant conflict. The primary characters were two of the adventurers, Carmen ( the explorer) and the Duchess ( a bad girl dilettante who was funding the expeditions rthe explorers had been going on). [We were using a very hybridized version of Cauldron of Magic Beans at this point-tokens were expended to establish characteristics and backstory much like coins in Universalis, but with a much broader ability to add details than a single coin gives in Uni].

This scene involved intercharacter conflict between the two primaries, and centered around class and friendship issues. We actually felt comfortable enough at this point to flip between first person and OOC regularly to ask for and offer suggestions about where we wanted the scene to go. The conflict/stakes turned out to be whether Carmen and Duchess would learn to respect one another and become better friends or become more estranged over their differences. ( Okay, take a guess who won and how it turned out...).

Scene four involved a conflict between Carmen and Duchess'  twin, Elena*, who'd observed the previous scene from the side lines. The conflict here was about Elena's friendship with Carmen, basically dealing with sibling jealousy and the idea of a person only having one best friend. I honestly forget how that one turned out, though since I don't recall having won a coin toss up til this pint, I can only assume Carmen and Elena worked things out in some fashion.
[* For reference, Elena and Duchess are two of the three figures from the RAFM CoC Dilettante Investigator figure 3-stage blister. Duchess is in a gown and stole with a cigarette holder, Elena was the same character but decked out for Safari]

Scene Five again flowed from the previous scene. We decided to switch things up a bit and introduced one of the catpeople rushing through the midst of the four adventurers, all in a huff. I have no idea why this character was in a huff, but it turned out not to matter. The action started because of the Cat woman, but the conflict ended up not involving her. Instead, it centered on the last member of the adventuring quartet, a girl named Brigid. Brigid's figure was a very properly dressed Victorian girl in a broad brimmed hat. Some negotiating and token spending established that Brigid was the poorest member of the team, looked up to Duchess as a sort of idol as well as an object of envy. Brigid was well aware of her penniless origins, and always held herself back, acting and dressing very properly in an attempt to fit in with a group she considered her social and intellectual betters. Thren and I roleplayed through some of the reaction of the other three characters to the cat woman's appearance and her pushing aside of the Duchess as she stalked throught the location. We decided that the key part of this thing, the issue conflict, was really about Brigiid's reaction to the pushing aside of the Duchess. If I won, Brigid would step up and confront the Cat woman and stop being mousy, the end result being that she would come into her own much the way Griselda had with Fryd. If Thren won, Brigid would become even more mousy and run away, having seen the team member she had built up such a heroic vision of simply treated as insignificant by the cat woman. ( I'm not sure that makes sense, writing it out. It made sense to us at the time...)
Thren won, and Brigid ran off, followed by Duchess who it turned out actually appreciated Brigid more than Brigid herself realized.

After this point,we played out a couple of other scenes, but we were fairly exhausted and ended up packing things up after the next two scenes really failed to spark the emotions the way those above did.

Third Lesson learned: I wish I'd played with Barbies as a kid. My god, little girls are something else, with the interpersonal conflicts they come up with. I can honestly say, I probably would have never come up with half the stuff Thren did, not immediately latch on to it as a source of pressure and story drive. She grabbed this concept with both hands and ran with it.
As a counterpoint, in previous games, we've had our share of derring-do and fisticuffs as well. I don't want to give you the impression that everything is soap opera. I will say that the general concept of conflict resolution as a core mechanic for any sort of decision making is awfully cool. I really do see the potential now in a way hadn't before playing this session.

I also wonder what effect having a more balanced gender distribution in rpg designers from early on would have had on the current state of the hobby.

Fourth lesson: Narr is emotionally draining. Actually, I don't really know if this session was narr, but I certainly tried to pull in narr supportive techniques I'd encountered. They certainly do live up to the Play Now! idea, though.

Lessons for my design: I haven't totally scrapped ideas from Cauldron of Magic Beans, though the mechanics need a major rewrite. I do think there is a distinct possibility of minis with narr support techniques and plan to follow up on this. In terms of overall approach, mechanics will focus primarily on the player level, rather than on modelling the characters in any mechanical fashion. There was no necessity in the way we played this game and its predecessors to model any skills, attributes or whatever. Nor was there any particular need to write anything at all down ( although we do, just for our own enjoyment- primarily in a cast of characters format).

Also, this last game confirmed a couple of trends that I'd noticed. First, both locations and miniatures can take on meaning through repeated play, provided that one of the participants takes an active interest. That meaning/background follws those physical pieces despite never having the same overall village or countryside set up twice. Again, Wells discusses something similar in his own experiences with his kids.

Further, the overall game takes on a sort of morphing and refinement as the game is played. When Thren and I started off, neither of us really knew where the events were going to go. We just followed our nose and went with what seemed most interesting at that moment. Whole areas of the board were simply left alone as the spotlight danced around certain key characters and locations. I think this would be somewhat unnerving for more traditional minis game players, but perhaps I'm wrong. It does seem to come very naturally to Thren, and I suspect that other adults playing a game of this style will quickly remember their own childhood and how they often actually played with character toys prior to experience with rpgs or minis wargames.

Nothin? No response?
Ouch.

both locations and miniatures can take on meaning through repeated play, provided that one of the participants takes an active interest. That meaning/background follws those physical pieces despite never having the same overall village or countryside set up twice

Hi!

Have you read this post? Prydain, the Hobbit, Pendragon ... Fun for Kids!

I think that a narrative game for children is really demanding, but in that thread it looks quite easy, isn't it? I assume that being experienced in narrative style games is important. I have the feeling that is something that may be trained.

Cheers,
Arturo

Arturo wrote:

Hi!

Have you read this post? Prydain, the Hobbit, Pendragon ... Fun for Kids!

I think that a narrative game for children is really demanding, but in that thread it looks quite easy, isn't it? I assume that being experienced in narrative style games is important. I have the feeling that is something that may be trained.

Cheers,
Arturo

I think this is very interesting, Robert. My daughter is going to be 9 in a few months, and I'd really like to get her into RPGs. She loves playing games (the whole family just finished a game of Monopoly Jr that she asked to play) and she loves fantasy stuff such as the Harry Potter series, the Secrets of Droon series, the Star Wars and Lord of the Rings movies, and the book Dragonology. She's shown an interest in minatures when I've taken her to gaming stores, but we don't have the money to invest in any right now, so I think I'll be going the pencil-paper-people route. But I'll be using this thread as a touchstone, that's for sure.

joshua wrote:
I think this is very interesting, Robert. My daughter is going to be 9 in a few months, and I'd really like to get her into RPGs. She loves playing games (the whole family just finished a game of Monopoly Jr that she asked to play) and she loves fantasy stuff such as the Harry Potter series, the Secrets of Droon series, the Star Wars and Lord of the Rings movies, and the book Dragonology. She's shown an interest in minatures when I've taken her to gaming stores, but we don't have the money to invest in any right now, so I think I'll be going the pencil-paper-people route. But I'll be using this thread as a touchstone, that's for sure.

Thanks for that link. I'll keep those minis in mind.

Hey Robert, this is fantastic! Good for you for following through on those earlier threads.

When we talked about this previously I mentioned that my experience of trying to do a minis roleplaying game was that it was "fragile fun". It worked, I know it worked because we were loving it and spectators wanted to be a part of it, but I'm not really sure how. I guess it was like drama resolution with a really small group where everyone is on the same page (playing HeartQuest was like that for me). We knew what should happen next (or what narrow range of outcomes should happen next), and rolled dice simply because it was fun to do so. I'm not sure that I could "replicate" the experience. We abandoned most of our rules, and the ones we kept... well I'm not convinced they were what was shaping play.

I kind of get the same vibe from your play report. Like it was great fun, but it could just have easily have turned out not to be fun. Is that a fair observation?

I love the way you facilitated play for your daughter, picking conflicts that you knew would draw her out. Are you effectively GMing the game for her?

Were your conflicts about deciding whether a character gets what they want, or more about deciding who a character is and how they behave and feel?

Look forward to hearing more,

Tony

Tony:
GMing the game? Hmm. Not really sure. I feel I was definitely acting as initiator of the conflict in the scene with the merchant, and again with the barman. The follow up scenes with the interaction between the adventurers was pretty much Thren initiating the conflict, and me adding color/dialog and suggestions.

Background:
My daughter doesn't live with me, so we got in the habit of making up stories when we talk on the phone. No dice or anything, just back and forth story add ons.If anything, Threnody is a little railroad conductor storywise, mostly turning to me when she runs low on steam. The minis game seems to follow a similar pattern.

I kind of get the same vibe from your play report. Like it was great fun, but it could just have easily have turned out not to be fun. Is that a fair observation?

When we talked about this previously I mentioned that my experience of trying to do a minis roleplaying game was that it was "fragile fun". It worked, I know it worked because we were loving it and spectators wanted to be a part of it, but I'm not really sure how. I guess it was like drama resolution with a really small group where everyone is on the same page (playing HeartQuest was like that for me). We knew what should happen next (or what narrow range of outcomes should happen next), and rolled dice simply because it was fun to do so. I'm not sure that I could "replicate" the experience. We abandoned most of our rules, and the ones we kept... well I'm not convinced they were what was shaping play.

komradebob wrote: GMing the game? Hmm. Not really sure. I feel I was definitely acting as initiator of the conflict in the scene with the merchant, and again with the barman. The follow up scenes with the interaction between the adventurers was pretty much Thren initiating the conflict, and me adding color/dialog and suggestions.

Tony wrote:

komradebob wrote: GMing the game? Hmm. Not really sure. I feel I was definitely acting as initiator of the conflict in the scene with the merchant, and again with the barman. The follow up scenes with the interaction between the adventurers was pretty much Thren initiating the conflict, and me adding color/dialog and suggestions.

All the fun that you were able to help make happen for her - do you anticipate being able to formulate a set of simple rules that she could use to make that same kind of fun for you? Or do you see this more that when you eventually publish your rules (because you must publish this in some kind of form - its too good not to share) that it will be as a game where the parent does most of the facilitating of play for the kids?

Tony

I meant "insightful", although I guess the other word could also be appropriate, too (heh).

Hey, Robert, thanks a bunch for those links!
Great stuff!

I don't know how much this has to do with 9 year olds, but I'd like to see so more "Cute" in minis, anyway. Bright colors, simple shapes. For example, my favorite figs for a while have been those munchkin guys, I think something like a little plastic chibi DnD set would go over big.

This is mostly materials related, but there was an old playskool toy I use to dig which really got me into gaming, and that was Richard Scary's Puzzletown. It was just a bit simpler than legos, but had an attractive, easy-to-assemble feel that made it feel like creating your own pop-up book.

I find my old sets when my parents moved a few years back (I've since e-bayed them to make rent) and tried to cut out some Nightmare Before Christmas buildings to go with other toys and it worked OK ascetically. More importantly, it got my anti-gaming wife to attend a couple games with me, integrating her into my then-group a little more, which is a plus any day.

Yeah, uh, I guess what I'm trying to say is what my wife says she liked was both the colorfulness of the figures and the tactile aspect of it. It made a good bridge from playing pretend to game to adult passtime. The idea of a playing piece links it closer to chess in people's mind, even if it is a kid's toy or a toy soldier.

As for playing pretend, kids are generally pretty good at it. The problem is making rules seem like part of the fun and an inviting part of adult life at the same time, eh? What kinds of rules liberate rather than oppress? What kinds of rules encourage rather than punish? What kinds of rules would you rather follow and which do you have to follow to make the game work? Hmmm....

What do you really want a developing mind to keep track of? I'm not a parent, so I can't answer this one. But playing pretend, I'm sure that's a kid's forte.

Thanks Arpie.

I also find that physical pieces make for an easy intro to rpgs for a lot of folks. I've seen non-gamer parents and guardians at game shops eyeing the wargame minis with barely concealed (hopefully positive) interest. There is something just joyous about playing with toys, even as an adult. I hope the game I'm working on will give them just the excuse they need to do that.

Having said that, I'm going to add sidebar suggestions about playing these Village games with toys that are already around, or are less expensive than gaming miniatures. Not everyone is a commited miniatures hobbyist, enthralled with painting and model asssembly. I want my game to be accessible to non-modellers and folks working on a limited budget ( a common situation for most parents). Plus, I want players to be able to get going with playing, rather than making village gaming one of those projects that is always being worked on and never really played.

What do you really want a developing mind to keep track of? I'm not a parent, so I can't answer this one. But playing pretend, I'm sure that's a kid's forte

Hi.  I was considering a response on this thread, but then decided it didn't fit too well despite similarities and started a separate thread, Techniques and my friend's 9 year old daughter. 

In my game, Ellen and Jake were not so interested in the D&D miniatures that I dug out -- but they were more interested in larp-like moving around and acting out. 

Hey John,
Glad you popped by. I'm looking into developing your suggestion from the "New directions..." thread about the Court of the Goblin King setting to go along with the Village game rules I'm working on. Could this be something that would work as a setting for the game you're talking about introducing to your friend's children?

komradebob wrote:
Hey John,
Glad you popped by. I'm looking into developing your suggestion from the "New directions..." thread about the Court of the Goblin King setting to go along with the Village game rules I'm working on. Could this be something that would work as a setting for the game you're talking about introducing to your friend's children?

I have nothing to say to this except that I am reading it intently with Krasnoarmeets in mind.

[code]Do you have your early design thoughts posted anywhere?  [/code]

Not yet. I spent today trying to hash the ideas out. I'm discovering that I'm dropping all kinds of unnecessary bits as I go.
For example, I had a small bit of resource management in the game, a la Universalis. The more I look at it, the more I realize that I may not need those bits. In fact, i'm thinking of a very streamlines mechanical system.

This is what I've got so far:
Fundamentally co-operative. This principle underlies everything else. Players are supposed to negotiate and offer suggestions back and forth.

The table is set up co-operatively ( although, in an ordered fashion- Round one-players each set up a location one at a time. Round two- players each place either a single figure or small related group ( such as a family, max nyumber= #players in game) at one of the locations. Round three, players take turns, but this time can place either characters or more scenery. Players have the option to go through more mixed choice rounds as round three, until one player passes. That becomes the last round of set up). Players get to tell a little about the characters as they set them out, with limitations.

No GM, but I'm writing it as if an adult player will be playing with a child for at least the first game, so there are suggestions on helping play along/facilitating. The idea is to get the kids or other players to pick up those activities by way of example. In play, the scene setting player does get some advantages, so they become a sort of mini-GM for their scene.

No rulers. This game isn't concerned with move rates or weapon ranges. Instead, figures are moved to locations ( with limitations) to set up scenes, and then manuevered freeform as they interact within the scene at a given location. I'm trying to figure out how to encourage use of the scenery without any special rules still.

Diceless. This sucker works on a player fiat system tied to stakes/conflict rez. When a boiling point is reached in the scene, the players simply draw a name from a bowl after stakes have been negotiated and set. The named player's "vision" is the version that takes affect and becomes part of the ongoing story.That player narrates the remainder of the scene with input from the other players.

No character sheets. You have to pay attention to what is going on. There is also no physical/skill mechanical modelling of characters. The emphasis is on interpreting the abilities of the figure by what you see and what you imagine.

Players take turns setting scenes. The player setting the scene follows a simple round the table rotation. The scene-setter has slightly more ability to declare the location of the scene, the general starting activity and the overall thrust of the scene. The setting player also gets to assign characters in the scene to the other players ( there must always be at least as many character figures in the scene as there are players).

Rewards Cards: These are kind of like player stakes, and are somewhat inspired by the fan mail in PTA. The key difference here is that I'm looking into making the cards action specific rewards- a card for good acting, one for pulling a surprise twist that floors everyone, one for narrating an especially exciting scene result, a card for successfully pulling together various player suggestions- basically an Academy Awards of roleplaying approach. Im even considering a metagame card or two for the hobby aspects of the game. When a player gets a card, they may turn it in at any point to pick up some ability to further alter a scene (adding or subtracting characters, etc) or even changing up the physical layout. The exact use is determined by when they play the card, In a scene or between scenes. Perhaps the scene setting player has to choose one other player to give a card to at the end of every scene?

Phew. that's what I got for now, anyway.

I have nothing to say to this except that I am reading it intently with Krasnoarmeets in mind.

Please let us know when you've got a first draft written up; we have a copy of HeroScape at our house, it has a nifty hex-matrix that you can build up to a three dimensional landscape, and lots of fantasy and scifi figurines.  It's not that interesting as a wargame, but it would be fine for RPG purposes. 

komradebob wrote:

Rewards Cards: These are kind of like player stakes, and are somewhat inspired by the fan mail in PTA. The key difference here is that I'm looking into making the cards action specific rewards- a card for good acting, one for pulling a surprise twist that floors everyone, one for narrating an especially exciting scene result, a card for successfully pulling together various player suggestions- basically an Academy Awards of roleplaying approach. Im even considering a metagame card or two for the hobby aspects of the game. When a player gets a card, they may turn it in at any point to pick up some ability to further alter a scene (adding or subtracting characters, etc) or even changing up the physical layout. The exact use is determined by when they play the card, In a scene or between scenes. Perhaps the scene setting player has to choose one other player to give a card to at the end of every scene?

Hey, first, thanks everybody for the feedback. I've posted a thread in the Design forum showing what I've made based off the more freeform games my daughter and I have played- The Village Game (rough draft).

I think maybe the discussion is best moved over there, since this is drifting towards design concepts.

Thanks,
Robert

Arpie wrote:

komradebob wrote:

Rewards Cards: These are kind of like player stakes, and are somewhat inspired by the fan mail in PTA. The key difference here is that I'm looking into making the cards action specific rewards- a card for good acting, one for pulling a surprise twist that floors everyone, one for narrating an especially exciting scene result, a card for successfully pulling together various player suggestions- basically an Academy Awards of roleplaying approach. Im even considering a metagame card or two for the hobby aspects of the game. When a player gets a card, they may turn it in at any point to pick up some ability to further alter a scene (adding or subtracting characters, etc) or even changing up the physical layout. The exact use is determined by when they play the card, In a scene or between scenes. Perhaps the scene setting player has to choose one other player to give a card to at the end of every scene?

Well, as far as rewards cards go, maybe you could consolodate that idea with the control-of-scene system.  Like:

On your turn, you decide what the next scene to focus on will be.
Then everyone draws their rewards cards from the hat/etc. The rewards card tells you what element of that scene you get to set. 
And then it pretty much flows from what you've got already, as far as interaction and resolution goes.
I hope that's not a dumb idea, but one deck of cards outside the minis themselves might be easier for a youngster to manage than several.

I'll continue my discussion in the Village/Indie RPG Design thread (above.)