I'd like to make a game that balances Narrativist and Simulationist issues - I'm making this game with a bunch of Simmies, and I'm a Narrie mostly: we've discussed the theory on the Forge and agreed that the Nar elements can only help.  We're also making a bunch of other settings: making the system primarily Narrativist will help us port it and tweak it to simulating other worlds.

The other lead designer of this thing wants "Dramatic tea parties," I.E. interesting and fun social interaction, to be fully supported and enhanced by the rules.  To me, that means rolling dice makes it more interesting.

Transhuman themes and space opera are two of my favorite things, so I'm going to make a transhuman space opera - Miles Vorkosigan is a major influence, as will be Schismatrix when I get my hands on it, and the Ghost in the Shell manga.  The question I'm asking is "How does technology change how humans interact?"

We eventually hope to publish in PDF format; if the game takes off, dead tree format is a remote possibility.

So anyway, onto the mechanics and world. 

The game will have a game master, support campaign play (and strongly advise leaving it to 10 sessions tops) and have experience point awards.

You pick two archetypes to create a character: a Culture and a Class (or occupation, or whatever).  There are five cultures we plan on detailing. The New Earthers eschew transhuman tech; the Network can't live without constant interaction through computer implants; the Principality is made up of human noblemen lording over robotic (and bioroid?) serfs, the Leauge are techno-anarchists; and Those Who Learned genetically alter themselves rather than terraform planets.  The classes specialize in Combat, Technical, Rogue (yech, I need a better name) and Diplomatic skills: You get a certian number of skills as "favored," allowing you to purchase them with experience for cheaper, including all of your "class" skills.

Characters will be mostly defined by Motivations.  These one-sentence, player defined personal idioms are measured in thier Intensity and Frequency: the Frequency is how often the player can say they're participating in a scene because of that Motivation, the Intensity allows you to bend the rules a little, letting you re-roll key dice rolls, heal wounds, that sorta thing. 

They also have 8 Stats: Agility, Stamina, Reason, Perception, Charisma, Composture, Inspiration/Intuition (not sure what to call it), and Will, rolled in a dice pool with a skill in a conflict resolution system.

A player spends temporary points in Motivation Frequency to say thier character is part of a scene... and why.  I haven't worked out scene creation beyond that, and would appreciate any advice you can give.  Once you've spent all your points in Frequency of all Motivations, they instantly refresh.

"Say yes or roll dice" is key to the system.  A player will say, "I am willing to risk this happening, so that this happens using this skill," and after discussion, the GM will set a difficulty and an appropriate stat.  The GM can say that the skill is inappropriate and suggest another one.  For example,

Player: "I want to follow that pirate vessel." 
GM: "You'll need to roll for it." 
Player:"I plot a new course using Academics (Navigation) - if I fail then the ship will spot me." 
GM: "Sounds fine to me.  Roll 3 or more successes with Reason + Academics." 

You usually start by risking your dignity in some way.  If you fail, you may choose to re-roll with more dice by risking a reversal of fortune.  Then you can risk some sort of actual harm.  Finally, you may risk your destruction (not always death).  The catch?  They get more dice too if they choose to counter in kind.  You may, if it's appropriate, spend a point of temporary Motivation Intensity to immediatley raise or lower the stakes by one level.

Once the scene has ended, you'll have new goals: you'll get a big fat reward for fulfilling a Motivation, based on it's Intensity, at this point.  Which leads to new motivations, to new Scenes, to new...

Comments and suggestions?

Welcome to the Forge, Elliot.

This is a great first stab at a game.  It seems like you know where you're going, and you've found several good tools and rule patterns to get there already.  I do have a couple of questions and concerns:

a) Class and Culture. You don't really state whether the Culture has the same effect as the class (make skills cheaper), or give permanent bonuses, or whatnot.  However, I'm afraid that using these like species/class in a D&D way will help neither your Sim nor your Nar interests.  This is especially true if certain combinations are obviously better than others, e.g., people from the Principality will always make better diplomats than anyone else.  As I can see it, the primary means of having story influence within a scene is the use of skills, so you would punish players of unusual yet interesting characters by having their skills be lower than those of typical combinations.  It will also give a wrong signal regarding play style (incentive to min-max; players will think this game is about making the most effective combinations).

b) I like Motivations and that the reward is tied into them.  The only comment I have is that you will probably have every player try to be part of every single scene because that's the way to gain rewards.  You *could* say that Motivations only refresh for everyone once they are used up for all of them, but there might be other ways to handle it (or you might like it as it is).

c) Raising stakes for re-rolls, also a good thing (one of Ron's innovations in Trollbabe, I believe).  My question here is how it interrelates with your initial stake-setting procedure.  The player first determines the scope of the task, which then leads the GM to propose a difficulty.  Now both sides can apparently escalate, so... there might be additional bad effects for the other side that the player didn't want to inflict just because the GM wants more dice.  Something about that seems... dangerous to me.  I think you need to playtest this very carefully to see if this doesn't interfere with the players setting stakes.

So, thanks for sharing, and good luck with the design :)

Elliott wrote:
I'd like to make a game that balances Narrativist and Simulationist issues

Transhuman themes and space opera are two of my favorite things, so I'm going to make a transhuman space opera - Miles Vorkosigan is a major influence, as will be Schismatrix when I get my hands on it, and the Ghost in the Shell manga.  The question I'm asking is "How does technology change how humans interact?"

xenopulse wrote:
Welcome to the Forge, Elliot.

This is a great first stab at a game.  It seems like you know where you're going, and you've found several good tools and rule patterns to get there already. 

I do have a couple of questions and concerns:

a) Class and Culture. You don't really state whether the Culture has the same effect as the class (make skills cheaper), or give permanent bonuses, or whatnot.  However, I'm afraid that using these like species/class in a D&D way will help neither your Sim nor your Nar interests.  This is especially true if certain combinations are obviously better than others, e.g., people from the Principality will always make better diplomats than anyone else.  As I can see it, the primary means of having story influence within a scene is the use of skills, so you would punish players of unusual yet interesting characters by having their skills be lower than those of typical combinations.  It will also give a wrong signal regarding play style (incentive to min-max; players will think this game is about making the most effective combinations).

b) I like Motivations and that the reward is tied into them.  The only comment I have is that you will probably have every player try to be part of every single scene because that's the way to gain rewards.  You *could* say that Motivations only refresh for everyone once they are used up for all of them, but there might be other ways to handle it (or you might like it as it is).

c) Raising stakes for re-rolls, also a good thing (one of Ron's innovations in Trollbabe, I believe).  My question here is how it interrelates with your initial stake-setting procedure.  The player first determines the scope of the task, which then leads the GM to propose a difficulty.  Now both sides can apparently escalate, so... there might be additional bad effects for the other side that the player didn't want to inflict just because the GM wants more dice.  Something about that seems... dangerous to me.  I think you need to playtest this very carefully to see if this doesn't interfere with the players setting stakes.

So, thanks for sharing, and good luck with the design :)

...duh.  Xenopulse, I should clarify: Motivations are NOT how you gain XP: they give you a different kind of reward.  I'm not sure what kind, but it's not XP.

From what you have described about the character design, I don't see any transhumanist focus.

Is there going to be any mechanical way to enhance your character with new technologies and see how that impacts them? How does this tie in to what you have described?

MikeSands wrote:
From what you have described about the character design, I don't see any transhumanist focus.

Is there going to be any mechanical way to enhance your character with new technologies and see how that impacts them? How does this tie in to what you have described?

Elliott wrote:
I'm trying to figure out a way to implement upgrades that doesn't make people go "Ooh, shiny toys!" and try to min-max the night away. I would have a Gift/Flaw system in place for that, but I don't quite know how to make it work.

Elliott wrote:
  The classes specialize in Combat, Technical, Rogue (yech, I need a better name) and Diplomatic skills

Hi I'm the "Dramtic Tea" Designer. *waves*

Elliott wrote:
The game will have a game master, support campaign play (and strongly advise leaving it to 10 sessions tops) and have experience point awards.

Elliott wrote:
You pick two archetypes to create a character: a Culture and a Class (or occupation, or whatever).  There are five cultures we plan on detailing. The New Earthers eschew transhuman tech; the Network can't live without constant interaction through computer implants; the Principality is made up of human noblemen lording over robotic (and bioroid?) serfs, the Leauge are techno-anarchists; and Those Who Learned genetically alter themselves rather than terraform planets.  The classes specialize in Combat, Technical, Rogue (yech, I need a better name) and Diplomatic skills: You get a certian number of skills as "favored," allowing you to purchase them with experience for cheaper, including all of your "class" skills.

Elliott wrote:
They also have 8 Stats: Agility, Stamina, Reason, Perception, Charisma, Composture, Inspiration/Intuition (not sure what to call it), and Will, rolled in a dice pool with a skill in a conflict resolution system.

xenopulse wrote:
b) I like Motivations and that the reward is tied into them.  The only comment I have is that you will probably have every player try to be part of every single scene because that's the way to gain rewards.  You *could* say that Motivations only refresh for everyone once they are used up for all of them, but there might be other ways to handle it (or you might like it as it is).

Hi!
  Well, as to the name "Rogue", you are using adjectives for the other classes, use Criminal or Underworld instead.
  What's the theme? Is it that Adding machine to humans makes them less human, or is it that yo can;t stop evolution? Is there a Technocracy theme? Do those who have the most tech rule? Is there a Technoratti theme, where those with the most money and influence benefit from tech while the unwashed masses live still haven't imrpoved? Are all humans treated well, while intelligent machines are treated unfairly like second class citizens?

Hi!
  Oh, and Motivations and Rewards
  Well, you should tie the reward to the motivation, no? If the character is motivated by greed, the only way you can use your motivation is to make more money? I find that these social stats work better when there is a word associated as well.
  For instance Reputation, a number on reputation means nothing, unless a word, like fencer is associated, then higher is beneficial in intimidating. While the word Sexy might give bonuses to Seduction...

Anna wrote:
I'm not sure how often motivations will lead directly to rewards. We are still working on the mechanics behind this.

Elliot wrote: I'm trying to figure out a way to implement upgrades that doesn't make people go "Ooh, shiny toys!" and try to min-max the night away.

tygertyger wrote:
One option is "cash only," as in mods have to be purchased in play.  This loses some flavor in chargen unless there is a pool of starting cash available for such purchases.  Another way is "cash + xp" to purchase mods.  This requires PCs to acquire resources in play in addition to simply earning xp in order to upgrade.  Again, you lose some flavor during chargen unless PCs begin with a pool of starting xp and money with which to buy enhancements.

Note that the term "mods" doesn't distinguish between cyborg implants, biotech implants and genetic enhancements; the mechanics will run smoother if such things are differentiated mechanically solely by their game effects.  The only differences between the different technologies should be matters of flavor (i.e. how unmodified humans react to an obvious cyborg versus how they respond to a genetic mutant or biotech-enhanced superhuman who looks normal) or trade-offs (cyberlimbs are obvious and don't heal when damaged, but damage to a biotech implant hurts and the thing stops functioning until it heals). 

dindenver wrote:
Hi!
  (Snip)
What's the theme? Is it that Adding machine to humans makes them less human, or is it that yo can;t stop evolution? Is there a Technocracy theme? Do those who have the most tech rule? Is there a Technoratti theme, where those with the most money and influence benefit from tech while the unwashed masses live still haven't imrpoved? Are all humans treated well, while intelligent machines are treated unfairly like second class citizens?

tygertyger wrote:

Anna wrote:
I'm not sure how often motivations will lead directly to rewards. We are still working on the mechanics behind this.

WW uses Motivations (in the form of Nature and Demeanor) as an rp hook for the kinds of things that PCs must do in order to refresh a spendable Trait (Willpower).  Something similar could work here.  This gives the player a game-mechanical reward for good rp.

I'm going to propose something you're not going to like, Elliott. I promise you I'm bringing up these ideas because I think they'll help you make a better game.

Don't have classes, skills, or a stack of eight stats. These are things I think you're doing because they're like other RPGs you've played, not because they're good ideas.

Instead, have Motivations and Modifications. You stats should be useable, but need not be perfectly descriptive. Motivations are human desires, like love, money, power, and the survival of one's offspring. Modifications are things that make these people different from you and me; they can be robot bodies or powerful philosophies. Stats serve a solely mechanical purpose, but you probably want to color them lightly.

Think about how you want the game to work, rather than starting with this stuff. Think about your themes, which will no doubt be about the nature and definition of humanity. Only have stuff in the system that has to do with that. If, indeed, the theme is "You can't stop evolution!" then perhaps episodes should be one session in length, returning to the story a generation on. Every time a character dies without fulfilling hir Motivation, you know that the principles embodied in that character aren't going to make it to the next round. The next character that player plays will either be of a dominant genotype or part of a failing one, with a chance to mutate and change for the next episode.

Above all, don't penalize players for the exit of their characters, through death, irrelevance, or whatever. Keep resources (character points or whatever) in the hands of the player, not the character. You get just as much storytelling power from being part of a failing genotype as you do for being part of a successful one; you can just do different, probably sadder, stuff.

Resolution is totally broken in it, but you might want to check out v. 0.1.0 of my current project, Shock: Social Science Fiction. It discusses humanity mechanics at one point. The game works great right up the moment you start doing stuff, so check out the World Creation phase and the Praxis Scales for ideas about what you're doing. I wish I could recommend just using the game for what you want, but it's too broken.

Not having classes, skills, and predefined stats?

...that actually seems extremley sensible, if problematic.  The game isn't about that, you're right.  The game is about A) What does it mean to be human?  And B) How will human societies interact? 

I DO want there to be an identifiable game world, but I could just make it very lightly Sim, and say "These are the only things that you have to take on thier own terms."  I still want to have my 5 Cultures, if only as examples of how to build characters.

Motivations and Modifications... as the only stats, you mean?  Player defined?  What do you mean by "color them lightly?"

Point taken about playing a character of a people fading into irrelevance or dying - it should be an opportunity for tragic play.

Elliott wrote:
Not having classes, skills, and predefined stats?

...that actually seems extremley sensible, if problematic.  The game isn't about that, you're right.  The game is about A) What does it mean to be human?  And B) How will human societies interact?

I DO want there to be an identifiable game world, but I could just make it very lightly Sim, and say "These are the only things that you have to take on thier own terms."  I still want to have my 5 Cultures, if only as examples of how to build characters.

Motivations and Modifications... as the only stats, you mean?

Player defined?

What do you mean by "color them lightly?"

Point taken about playing a character of a people fading into irrelevance or dying - it should be an opportunity for tragic play.

I think you need some kind of way to capture the ups and downs of being more than human. Modifications should come with advantages and disadvantages, and you should let the player write them. Letting players write their own allows them to Address Premise with their character.

Perhaps some kind of player voting system will reward players for bringing in cool ads and disads of their Mods during play. Also, some kind of static reward for bringing a Mod into play, like keys in The Shadow of Yesterday.

The way I approach design is to think: What is the game about? How do I get players to do that? What tools do they need to express it? How do I reward it?

Adam wrote: I think you need some kind of way to capture the ups and downs of being more than human. Modifications should come with advantages and disadvantages, and you should let the player write them. Letting players write their own allows them to Address Premise with their character.

Perhaps some kind of player voting system will reward players for bringing in cool ads and disads of their Mods during play. Also, some kind of static reward for bringing a Mod into play, like keys in The Shadow of Yesterday.

The way I approach design is to think: What is the game about? How do I get players to do that? What tools do they need to express it? How do I reward it?

Hi!
  OK, what do you consider to be the real world effects of these implants and modifications?
  If you could see better than humans, how would you act differently than them?
  If you brain was digitally enhanced, faster with better retention and recall and you knew it, would it effect you psychologically?
  What if you knew you could make a backup of yourself and could never die, could you even relate to humans?
  In Cyberpunk 2020 the mechanics assume that there is only one reaction, superiority and disdain for your fellow man. Do you agree with this assessment? Is there no other reaction possible?

dindenver wrote:
Hi!
  OK, what do you consider to be the real world effects of these implants and modifications?
  If you could see better than humans, how would you act differently than them?
  If you brain was digitally enhanced, faster with better retention and recall and you knew it, would it effect you psychologically?
  What if you knew you could make a backup of yourself and could never die, could you even relate to humans?
  In Cyberpunk 2020 the mechanics assume that there is only one reaction, superiority and disdain for your fellow man. Do you agree with this assessment? Is there no other reaction possible?

Adam hits it again.

The Motivation mechanic, whatever you come up with, will work here, but let the players fill in the blanks.

Hey, Elliot!

"You usually start by risking your dignity in some way. "

When I read that, it suggested the possibility of a prestige or 'face' mechanism. And as soon as I thought of that, I remembered another semi-transhuman novel you might want to take a look at. It's called Down And Out In The Magic Kingdom, and it takes place in a near-future Disneyland. It's more or less a posthuman conflict for the soul of the Haunted Mansion...

Anyway, in that setting the economy is based on a sort of popularity contest -- the more people think well of you, the more affluent you are. It seems that a varient of that notion might work well in the setting you're talking about. One aspect of the setting that would impact that strongly would be the degree to which there is open information between the cultures. As an example, is there an internet analog that all cultures make use of? Of course, that would have some serious limitations in an interplanetary setting... But think of the ways pop culture transcends 'real' culture in our world, in terms of crossing national boundaries and so on. Then again, what makes a character admired in one culture might be anathema in another.

I suppose that what I'm failing to say here is that we're starting to get to a point where Andy Warhol's fifteen minutes of fame is turning into a condition where everybody is a media figure to one degree or another. When you can Google yourself and get results, then aren't you a star? Sort of? And if communications technology, information storage, and public surveilance keep on developing...

Oh, and Vacuum Flowers by Michael Swanwick is another seminal novel in the posthumanist canon. And while the science is weak, Great Mambo Chicken And The Transhuman Condition provides some interesting details and characters that you might want to look at.

Yours,

Sean Craven

Sean wrote: Anyway, in that setting the economy is based on a sort of popularity contest -- the more people think well of you, the more affluent you are.