One of my players wants to drift the Burning Wheel rules significantly: He is refusing to pay resource points for shoes and clothing. "I got shoes, I got clothes, and having spent two whole points for f*<ing paper, the ink comes with it!" is a direct quote. Should I expel him from our gaming group? Another player has paid his points for shoes and clothing, though he is unwilling to share clothes and shoes with the other player.

Also: when you buy shoes, do you only get two?

seems like the player is going to be unhappy with the entire resources mechanic if he expects to just get what he wants. seems like he expects to get what he wants by bullying and being forceful at the table. what does he want to buy with his resource points?

as for the second question, see p. 168- clothes.

a character gets enough of a given object to suit their lifestyle. a peasant vagabond may have one pair of shoes or boots, if he can afford the 1 rp cost. a city-born trader might have a closet of shoes, at the same cost.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the first post was not entirely serious. (God, I hope so.)
It's caused me to giggle several times since I read it, anyway.

Linked series of tests -> Ob3 Speed to make to the tailors before anybody spots you in your potato sack -> Ob3 Forte test not to cut your foot on a stone on the way -> Ob1 Resources test to buy clothing.

Dun,

i'm having a hard time deciding if this is ironic or not. Is this a serious query?

-L

It's a little of both, really. It's certainly an ironic way of stating the issue.

I think we're used to games that don't go to this level of gear acquisition (like Over the Edge, for instance) so that's part of it. But I think it was a bit disconcerting for my player when he realized that he not only had to buy paper, but also ink and quills as a seperate expenditure. There seems to be a mismatch of fine detail in the gear section--if you're buying travelling equipment one item gets you everything you need, but if you're buying apparel you have to buy two seperate items (clothing and shoes).

So I guess I'm wondering what the standard is for clothing and shoes. Is every character expected to pay resource points at character generation for clothing and shoes? Or is it more of a "there's only so much you can do with 2 rp, here's something to spend those 2 remaining you have without feeling like they've gone to waste?" Or something else entirely.

The character was described as a master criminal who works for himself, but has a reputation as THE man to go to when you need to get something done. He was a Bandit, an Archer, a Criminal, and a Thinker (we're doing 6 lifepath characters) and he ended up with 37rp, of which 25 went to his 2D reputation and he needed another 5rp on property in order to get a b2 Resources. Another 5 for a hunting bow and he only has 2rp to spend on other stuff. He wanted paper, so he has to run around naked now?

We spent a while at the session last night laughing about it, and his quote was said in a spirit of good humor, not anger (although perhaps a tiny hint of frustration).

So, just to put real questions at the end of the post for ease:

• Is every character expected to pay rp for shoes and either clothes or finery? If not, is there another reason for their inclusion in the gear lists?
• Do shoes work like clothing (you get more than one pair)? (mtiru: I saw that notation for clothing but wasn't sure if it worked for shoes the same way)
• Is it badwrongfun if we just let this character start the game with clothes and shoes? (assuming it's ok with Jim, who actually paid for his character's clothes and shoes)

Thank you, and sorry for any consternation I may have caused.

If I might rephrase the question...

Why are clothes, shoes, paper, ink and quills so damn expensive in BW?
Because most people in the middle ages had to make their own clothes and shoes. Or their mother did. And they didn't readily have extras available. Peasantry and whatnot in the middle ages were really fucking poor. 1 rp is essentially a regressive tax on the peasantry -- because it sure doesn't mean anything to a character with a decent amount of rps.

Shoes are essentially a health care item. They increase the well being of the wearer. They were hand made and a decent pair were expensive. Cheap shoes were essentially made of cardboard. This made little difference to the nobility who could afford shoes and afford not to walk. Peasantry and the working classes weren't so lucky. So again, the 1 rp cost for shoes is to demonstrate that such an item was not a given in the setting for BW. Poverty is rampant. Something that's hard for our modern mind to grasp, I think.

As for paper, ink and quills. It's just too cheap. I should have priced it at like 50 rps. But it is what it is. So paper, ink and quills -- again, extremely rare and expensive items.

-L

What about my second bullet?

dunlaing wrote:
What about my second bullet?

Eff peasants and their shoes and who had 'em and how many pair and who made them.

Resources create want.

He doesn't want to pay for shoes...great, first scene, first game, he is outside, homeless, without shoes.  You have the first part of your adventure.  When he's writing his Beliefs, remind him tha this character does not have shoes and winter's-a-coming.

The game's mechanics create story; that is what they do.  Whatever Luke and Thor say the reasoning was behind it, at the table, I have found that they create drama.

Paka wrote:
Eff peasants and their shoes and who had 'em and how many pair and who made them.

Resources create want.

He doesn't want to pay for shoes...great, first scene, first game, he is outside, homeless, without shoes.  You have the first part of your adventure.  When he's writing his Beliefs, remind him tha this character does not have shoes and winter's-a-coming.

The game's mechanics create story; that is what they do.  Whatever Luke and Thor say the reasoning was behind it, at the table, I have found that they create drama.

It was me!  I was the guy!

I'd like to underline Dun's comment that his whole post was meant, mainly, in fun.  We were cracking up as he was posting it.  I guess you had to be there.

I have no problem paying rps for shoes & ink per se.  I buy the argument that these things were rare & expensive in medieval times, hence their cost.  Two things continue to nag me, though:

1. Of all the many things which were incredibly expensive and rare in medieval times, why are the ones that are listed listed, and not the myriad others?  Are they meant to stand as examples/guideposts, or is their another rationale for their particular inclusion?

2. Why is initial equipment acquisition taken to so grainy a level, in a system that (through Resources) is relatively fluid and non-grainy when it comes to Gettin' Stuff during the game?

dunlaing wrote:
What about my second bullet?

abzu wrote:
Hi Corkiakin,

1. These are the things that I felt were important to setting the mood for BW. Yeah, spices, glass, cotton, all very valuable. But it really fucks with people's heads when you tell them they can't have shoes or paper without anteing up some story power.

2. I've found, for fantasy roleplaying of the pseudo-historical variety, gear helps flesh out the character. It's essentially a nod to the frp genre with a tip o' the hat to a little historioctiy. But there's a little game design in there, too. Weapons, armor, horses, I want those things to be important and valuable. Putting value on them reinforces our setting (in short: nobles rule, peasants drool). You pick the gear that is vital to your character RIGHT NOW. Anything you don't need RIGHT NOW to make your guy the guy you envision, don't worry about. You'll be able to get it later with Resources.

does that help?
-Luke

coriakin wrote: It does.  I think it's safe to say that my head was, in fact, fucked with when I realized I had to pay for the paper AND the ink. 

No, no, it's "well educated, lives in a townhouse but buck naked,barefoot Bandit"

He has a house* but no shoes or clothes.

___________________________
*He sort of paid for a house. He wanted to spend 5 rp on his abode, and there was a cottage for 3 and a house for 10, so we decided that he could have a small townhouse in the city for 5rp--a little better than a cottage due to its location, but much smaller than a typical house.

dunlaing wrote: He has a house* but no shoes or clothes.

He's going to not purchase the paper and get the clothes and shoes instead. So much for el Bandito Nudisto.

I had the same problem last night.  One of my players dumped most of her village-born veteran's resource points into superior arms and a warhorse, only to find that she didn't have enough RPs left for both clothing and shoes.  She was incensed, we exchanged some sharp words, and one of the other players (my boyfriend!) backed her up, saying I should just give her an extra RP.  So I walked out of the room.  (She's utterly reasonable about rules once actual play starts, but she's a real bully when it comes to character generation.  Dunno why.)

I'll tell you why (or at least a good possible reason): It's conception -vs- doability. It's one of my big problems with Burning Wheel chargen. Of course, it's also my big problem with almost every game's chargen, so I'm not pointing fingers.

The thing is, you come into the chargen session with an idea. As you start working on it, your idea takes more shape, until you have this concept of a character you're really excited about. Then you get down into the numbers and realize you CANNOT make that character. The rules won't allow it.

Burning Wheel is peculiar in this in that you're struggling with the life-path system, trying to get a good, acceptable age and a good lifepath, and during the whole process, you're basically being forced to clarify the concept in your head. You're getting all of these numbers, and you're thinking you'll be fine to make the character you envision. You're getting more and more excited as the concept fleshes out. Then when you're done with the lifepaths, and it's time to assign numbers, it hits you.

Now, I've made it past this stage twice, and twice I've given my GM no end of grief. I'm still working on the second time, but the first time, I was able to come up with a character I wanted to play, and liked, but I had to change my concept a little bit.

The same thing I see happening with your paper-less bandit. It's a basic matter of difference of assumptions between Luke and the players, and I imagine familiarity with the game and the power levels will alleviate a lot of these issues.

Eric wrote:
I had the same problem last night.  One of my players dumped most of her village-born veteran's resource points into superior arms and a warhorse, only to find that she didn't have enough RPs left for both clothing and shoes.  She was incensed, we exchanged some sharp words, and one of the other players (my boyfriend!) backed her up, saying I should just give her an extra RP.  So I walked out of the room.  (She's utterly reasonable about rules once actual play starts, but she's a real bully when it comes to character generation.  Dunno why.)

I actually like the Burning Wheel lifepath system very much. It's one of the things that sells me on the game. I like the fact that the first time I went in to create a character I was aiming for a pretty standard city thief and ended up with a Noble Bastard Dillettante. I think of it as a feature, not a bug.

One thing that's discouraging for people whose last two games were Capes and Over the Edge is that it takes a long time and is very involved, but that's what happens when you go from one extreme to another in anything, not just chargen systems.

dunlaing wrote:
One thing that's discouraging for people whose last two games were Capes and Over the Edge is that it takes a long time and is very involved, but that's what happens when you go from one extreme to another in anything, not just chargen systems.

abzu wrote: Jeez. She's asking for the relic and a tank to drive it around on. Would she settle for a lesser warhorse? Have you checked out the Mount Burner? And if not, if she's desperate for the trappings of nobility, why not just make a noble? Or if she's playing a trait ridden character, why not take the sword as Family Heirloom (page 276 of the CB).

Most soldiers walk.

She does have Mounted Combat and Riding, right?

Any chance you could start another thread with her character, so we could take a look?

-L