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Topic: [Bleed] another vampire game
Started by: inoir
Started on: 12/9/2005
Board: Indie Game Design


On 12/9/2005 at 5:33pm, inoir wrote:
[Bleed] another vampire game

Hello,

My latest game design is called Bleed.  It is a vampire game for two players.  Together they play the two sides of the whole monster.  The human side and the vampire side.  They create an internal monologue that forwards the game, and it is this internal back and forth that inspires most if not all the conflicts. 

It can be found at:

http://www.brandonparigo.com/bleed.pdf

Bleed started out as something to keep my mind occupied while waiting for official feedback on Delete, which was my November Ronnies entry (Delete has had two revisions since then, while I wait).  Since then it has grown to six pages, and what I feel to be a good start to an interesting game.

My design goals stepping into it were these:

1) A roleplaying game for two people.  I feel that most gamers think of two people games as a bit too small, so most games are not designed directly to be played that way.  I wanted to go against that and make a game that was designed only for two.

2) Setting as you go.  Most of my designs revolve around the idea that the setting is created as you play.  This game was to be no exception.  In the course of designing it, it became a vampire game, which pseudo locks in the setting. 

3) Internal Conflicts with impact.  I wanted most the conflicts to be internal.  Or if that wouldn't be the case, I wanted the internal conflicts to propell the story, and be the most important part.

Things that are a bit messy:

1) I think the CA is all over the place. 

2) I think it needs a bit more guidance about how the Q&A works, and how to transition from Q&A, to Internal Conflict, to External Conflict, and then to Exalting and Diminishing.  I think it all works, but it may take a bit more wording to make it make perfect sense to everyone.

3) The Closest to 10 rule has no real connection to the game, other than it is yet another fortune system in a game.  An occult meaning of 10 is about the only reason I chose it over any other number, or dice format.  This may impact the impact of the game on some readers. 

4) No End game.  I seem to have this problem.  I dig on the setting as you go mentality, but that always seems to leave me with no end game.  What is the character doing?  The game clearly states that each side of the character is trying to override the other, but what is the whole character doing?  Trying not to self destruct is obviously the answer, but is that enough?

So my questions about it if anyone cares to help out a bit:

1) Is the CA as all over the place as I think it is?
2) From reading it can you understand the transitioning of Q&A to Internal Conflict, to External Conflict and back again?
3) Does the Closest to 10 rule feel tacked on?  If so should I explain in the text my reasons for using it, or just keep it?
4) Do you get or do you build your own sense of what the character as a whole is doing?  Is trying not to self destruct enough?
5) Is a game with only two players a bit to intimate for most gamers? 

One last bit before I post this.  I seem to of lost my gaming group (and my wife doesn't do any game that could be called a roleplaying game), and I have a limited schedule, so if anyone could playtest this and let me know what they think, that would be marvelous.  My goal (which is my goal for all my games) is to release them as free pdfs on my website until such a time as I feel one of them is good enough to sell.

Thanks

Brandon

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On 12/9/2005 at 6:49pm, TonyLB wrote:
Re: [Bleed] another vampire game

Brandon wrote:
1) Is the CA as all over the place as I think it is?
2) From reading it can you understand the transitioning of Q&A to Internal Conflict, to External Conflict and back again?
3) Does the Closest to 10 rule feel tacked on?  If so should I explain in the text my reasons for using it, or just keep it?
4) Do you get or do you build your own sense of what the character as a whole is doing?  Is trying not to self destruct enough?
5) Is a game with only two players a bit to intimate for most gamers? 


(1) Nah, games don't have CA.  Only actual play has CA.  What CA you're offering support for seems a bit scattered, but that's more about limiting yourself to purposeful rules than about aiming for a particular CA.
(2) Yes.
(3) It feels tacked on.
(4) I think that it's really easy to "gotcha" the Human (more about this later) and not terribly easy to "gotcha" the Vampire.  So one player has an agenda, and the other doesn't.
(5) Do you care?

Now, here's two pieces of unsolicited advice (because I'm pushy that way):  First, remove the External Conflict mechanic entirely.  If a vampire opposes a normal human, the normal human loses.  Period.  The only thing that can keep the vampire in check is the human inside them.

Second, you need to figure out what questions the Human can ask that the Vampire uniquely fears to answer. 

There are tons of questions that I could ask as a Vampire that would prompt conflicts (and give me the upper hand):  "Does she squeal when I cut her?", for instance, is a classic.  Say that with the appropriately child-like sense of wonderment and curiosity and you make it clear that this is only step one on a line of inquiry that you're already plotting out in your head.

I don't see that the Human has those same questions to ask.  The Vampire need not fear actions of decency in the way that the Human has to fear actions of depravity.  In fact, I don't think there's much that the Vampire does fear, and I think that makes the play less interesting for the Vampire.  He gets to drive the Human player to make statements about what he'll stand for, but doesn't get to make any such statements himself.  The Vampire only gets to be antagonist, not protagonist.  Make sense?

I love the Q&A mechanic, by the way.  Any mechanic where asking "Are nuns really protected by God?" is a tactical slam-dunk is a good mechanic in my book.

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On 12/9/2005 at 8:01pm, inoir wrote:
RE: Re: [Bleed] another vampire game

TonyLB

Somewhere deep in my head I knew that games don't have CA. 

The thought that the vampire always wins against normal humans was one that I entertained when writing it down.  I think I am/was scared that the game wouldn't be complete without a mechanic to support external conflict.  Maybe I should get over it. 

Most the details of the character are built around the external conflict, which would mean by getting rid of the external conflict I either have to get rid of the details or make the details function in a different way, say like making the internal conflicts be an extension of the details in the monologue. 

V - "Does she squeal when I cut her?"
H - "I will not cut her, she's my wife!"
Resistance which goes into Conflict
The human gains a die for the target being his wife.
V - "a wife full of blood!" Vampire gains a die for the power - Lust for blood.
or V - "she won't know I did it" Vampire gains a die for the power - can rewrite memories
They roll to resolve the conflict.

Another way to add to the back and forth nature would be to make it so every detail on the character is written down, even the bad ones.  The good ones would give the player a die in a conflict, and the bad ones would take away a die when mentioned by the other player.  Something like:

V - "Are nuns really protected by God?"
H - "I will not test that, I'm catholic!" Resistance into Conflict. 1 die for good memory.
V - "of course that didn't stop me from stealing from the collection plate!" negative 1 die for bad memory.

This could work if there was more detail put into it.  It could work also to take away the dice entirely and just rely on the knowledge of the character. 
In such an internal world, where would the vampires powers come into play? Like I gave an example of above?  Does it even need to be a vampire?  Would the game best be served by making it about psychopaths?  These are all questions that a simple statement raises. 

"Second, you need to figure out what questions the Human can ask that the Vampire uniquely fears to answer."

I think that statement just made the design of this game more interesting to me.  Something that simple.  Spending some time contemplating exactly what the vampire/human relationship is, and what the vampire fears should prove a good thing.  This may of just ruined my weekend. 

All the ways I can think of to answer that comment leave the game much less open ended, which could solve some of my other problems with it.  An example would be by giving each player direct goals, or setting up a structure in the rules to help create opposing goals.  The Vampire wants to stay alive, the Human wants to end this life.  The vampire wants the world to know that he is a vampire, the human wants to keep it quiet.  These could be a series of goals, or one large goal.

Thank you for your reply, it was most helpful. 

Brandon

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