So, figured a new post would be best to cover this new line in thought based on the changes and discussion over the past several threads.

I've fleshed the concept out a bit more using moral dilemma to make things more interesting, and have also had an interesting thought in that regard.

I'll mention it first, and leave it on the backburner for comments from others:

What if using Dream Powers drained Sway, and virtuous acts restored it?

And on with the post. Okay, to make things a little more concrete in terms of HOW a character slips back and forth on the Sway-o-Meter I had to simplify a little.

Took the old Periapts idea, gonna scrap that completely. The dreamers can already sense each other from a fair distance. They can bond on their own time.

Instead, we have a couple new "attributes" : Virtues

I went with the 4 Cardinal Virtues

Prudence
Justice
Temperance
Fortitude

All characters will need to distribute points in these. Im not sure how many points they should get just yet. As per most of the system I am using, its from 1 to 6 per attribute. 2d6 is the standard die roll.

Now, I am not bothering to list the "sins" to go opposite those since their meanings should rather imply that anyway. Instead, whenever a character makes a moral choice or blatantly violates morals for their own gain (even if it isnt selfish) they risk changing places on the Sway scale. Whenever a moral dilemma like this erupts, the Virtues come into play. Depending on the action, the GM calls the difficulty for a roll.

So then the player references their most relevant Virtue, adds that to a 2d6 roll. Compares to difficulty. If they succeed, they only slip 1 point up or down the scale. If they fail, then they Sway equal to (unsure of yet-likely be based on teh severity of the action). If they roll a perfect 12, they do not sway at all. If they roll a 2 (snake eyes) they lose a level in the related Virtue. They must build the virtue up through redeeming themselves for their actions in-game.

This gives the players some visual reference for how they will perform against a given choice and whether or not its worth the risk. It also incorporates rather nasty implications if a person fails on a moral level. Lower resistance to the Badness will eventually open them up toa heap of incoming Sway. This makes thigns very dangerous.

Id forgotten to add another note to a previous post: Bane is the energy of the Chimera, and Fabric is the energyof Dreams. One good, one not-so-evil. Bane is the negative Sway. Fabric is the positive.

If a player reaches the absolute extremes on negative or positive sway:
They must make a saving throw, or are consumed by the forces at either end. If somethign less final is needed after testing, then I will implement it. For now, its character death, plain and simple. You knew the risks.

Note, however, that only Dreamers are utterly consumed. Mortals are not affected in the same fasion. They are just paragons of virtue, or utter blasphemies of men and women. Sway for them helps inspire, and build loyalty and power.

SWAY ACTIONS
----------------------------
Violate a virtue for personal gain= - Sway
Sacrifice self for virtues = + sway
Uphold Virtue=+Sway
Commit Evil= -Sway

Sparks are somewhat removed. They dont fit the scheme , so I am reimagining mages in my world.

This seem a simple enough method for doing things?

Hi!
  I am not sure about the difference between prudence and temperence? And I am not entireley sure fortitude is/should be a virtue.
  Not only that, but I am not sure if your virtues re-inforce the kind of heroic behavior you are trying to foster.
OK, you want heroes, so temperence belongs
Lets take out fortitude and add Courage.
You want people to use their powers on the sly, so let's also include humility
Finally, We want people to be helpful so let's add compassion?

  So Temperence, Courage, Humility and Compassion? Not much overlap and fine, heroic qualities. I like the idea of spending sway to change the world and gaining sway by being heroic. It's probably what Exalted meant to be before they screwed up the rules.
  Keep up the good work, you are putting together a good game.

Fortitude: refers to courage, standing up against the challenge no matter the odds.

Justice: Doing what is right because it must be done. All actions have a cost. Sin requirs pennance, etc.

Temperance: Resisting temptation, desires and lust.

Prudence: Using our heads before acting. Not acting out of rashness.

These are the 4 main "virtues", which are used in Catholic dogma. They further "divide" into the capital virtues (meekness, brotherly love etc) and then the spiritual virtues (faith, belief, love). These 4 cardinal virtues are the big daddies that define all others.

Prudence could easily be Compassion. Same with Humility. Though Humility could also go under Justice as well, or Fortitude...etc...depends on the circumstances and interpretation.

Hi!
  OK, your definitions are pretty good. I still think there is a little overlap with Prudence and Temperance. They both involve resistance. One is resisting to act against temptation and the other is resisting to act hastily. Of course, these are virtues, but are they heroic virtues? Do we really want our heroes to be rewarded for not actring?
  Just a thought.

I really like Dindenver/Dave M's list of 4 virtues.

Although I like that you used the Cardinal Virtues, keep in mind that these were not created for heroes or leaders. They were created for the everyman.

Many heroes had to work around the sins, commandments, and virtues at times - in order to achieve the greater good.
I'm not saying this is the case here, I'm just illustrating that sometimes leaders/warriors/heroes adopt a slightly different code.

And I think in terms of players fully grasping the virtues, Dindenver's list is a much more easily applied, easily understood and grasped list.

Just my two cents.

Now I see your angle :) the Heroics thing.

I was thinking along both a heroic and a spiritual slant, hence the 4 virtues I selected.

That, and I wanted to avoid "Exalted-isms" for those who would glance over the game. I think Heroic Virtues are a good choice, but I am curious if purely heroic ones suit Dreamers to the same degree as they will define Mortal Heroes.

Now, I realise the way I use virtues differs greatly from exalted and I am "safe" in that regard. I just dont want folks to look at the game and assume its a rip-off from a glance.

So, lets look at these "heroic" ones from a different perspective:

How do the Virtues fit in to being a Dreamer and affecting Sway?

Compassion: Obvious applications here for mortal heroes and Dreamers.
Humility: Easily applicable.
Courage: Again, obvious applications here.
Temperance: Again, a good one here. Their power itself is a temptation, not to mention vices and whatnot.

They do all seem to fit nicely, upon inspection. Are there are other possible "combos" for virtues that might suit better , though?

Hi!
  Well, if you want to break fro any traditions, you can reverse engineer them. What actions do you want to encourage players to do?
You want them to be heroes, so you need some courage, even if you call it fortitude, it stays
You want them to not do grand displays of power, so you need tomsething like temperance, humility or some other synonym that means you think before you act
You want them to defend the weak so you need compassion, bravado or some other synonym
Maybe the last virtue should be searching for truth? Mindfulness, enlightenment, something that denotes a yearn to learn?
Or maybe you want to encourage them to help rebuild the world and give them the virtue of charity or some such
  The other thing is you want to avoid overlap with each other and avoid emulating Exalted (which it seems like you are doing alright so far). That was one of the hardest part of Exalted virtues, Conviction, almost impossible to pin down in game
  anyways, I think it is a good counterbalance to sway, keep at it!

Yea...Charity does make a good deal of sense as well. 

A bit off topic... or at least an aside regarding the same topic... heh

What is Sway, really? It's a mechanic, but what is it's real purpose, mechanically AND in regards to influencing play? It keeps your characters 'under control', and your Virtues are the guides (which also keeps them somewhat in character) and provides a penalty for extremism one way or the other... this is a great concept in many ways, but WHY does it do this?

Let me say this another way... My first impression of Sway was that it was influenced by actions affecting Void... actions which instilled nightmares in others increased negative Sway, while those that inspired dreams increased positive Sway - all on a sliding scale. At the time it made sense to me - Void, which is influenced in a similar way by the people it feeds on, is powering the Dreamers, so they are equally susceptible to the Dreams they Spawn. And as much as the Dreamers can influence reality, it can also influence them in return.... it seemed like a good mechanic to reduce power abuse, and force Characters to look at the effects of their actions at the same time.

Now Sway seems to be a much more internal, personal, moral mechanic. I do not regard this as a bad thing in any way, and in fact think it can add greatly to your game if done right. This new system seems to mimic WW's Vampiric Humanity in many ways. This is great if its what you want, but my initial impression was much different.

Archer/Geoff:

    Sway has "matured" beyond its grass roots foundation. While at its core, that is still how it works essentially, it is fundamentallly changed in regards to WHEN it is fired. The dream aspect was difficult to manage, and every human on earth ahs an idea of what a moral is. Your nightmare and Bobs nightmare are very diffrent things.

Me, Richard Simmons with a chainsaw and a tutu would be a truly soul-shattering terror.

Others, might be somethin else.

I will admit that the WW way of dealing with the human side of things it an inspiration, I am also going in a different direction. Where vamps or exalted need to carefully plan their actions lest they become the "beast" , dreamers are essentialyl slaves to their virtues and to their choices. No matter WHAT they do, they are essentialyl screwed in one way or the other. And for the non-dreamers, they are very much in control of their choices, and these choices have a real and noticable affect on those around you. Its not just "hey, ill charge you more at my store"  its "jesus christ run. Its archer and his band of child-killing madmen!"

while the concept for the Sway has changed exponentially, it is still similar in employment. Just a little beyond its original scope, because it wasnt initialyl intended for anyone but the Dreamers.

Sayter/Chris  ;-)

Just had an idea that might be of use...

Sway as a personal.moral mechanic is great, and personally I like the Hero Virtues proposed by Dindenver, but think it applies better to your Heroic Mortals than your dreamers.

This is a bit of a tangent, and might not be at all where you want your game to go, but what about Sway being more of a Sanity Scale? (al la Cthulu, but different). Dreamers can manipulate Reality, and deal with Nightmare creatures on a regular basis... that's GOT to lend itself to either delusions of grandeur or serious mental issues. Staying in the middle of the scale could represent 'sanity', while a slide to either side represents negative and positive decline (horror/despair vs. overconfidence/delusions of grandeur)

It could be a much more mobile scale that way... I know Humanity and the like are rarely actually referred to and used on a regular basis, but what if each confrontation with unreality provides a stimulus that can slide the scale? Using your powers willy nilly for your own benefit leads to the positive side, but you slide right back down after you run into some nightmares... but too many nightmares (fights) and you risk negative insanity...

It could even lead to perks for characters who socialize with and have lives in regular society, as it gives them a stable foundation etc etc

It's not something I would apply to heroic mortals or your mages (who manipulate magic, not reality itself), but which I think fits well with Dreamers.

Interesting idea, Archer.

However, bear in mind they need to roleplay such madness. I am not a fan of the "you are now a schizophrenic" style gameplay. The more mad one goes, the harder it becomes to roleplay. The logic behind your idea is solid, I just am unsure how that would be playable.

However, morality is soemthing we ALL understand. You and I know that you cant just kill your parents because its something to do. Its wrong. Doing it is breaking the law, and normal moral standards. Granted, morality is laregly a product of society, but thats a whole different issue entirely.

Both ideas are good. And I do liek the horrific madness aspect of it..it makes things a lto darker and terrible in teh gameworld, which is a good thing. I just cant see a way to make it work. I think makign dreamers heroes with little choice...but to have them fall to the very thign they are trying to destroy and end up aiding it as a much tastier morsel in some cases.

I'll reflect on the idea though, cuz its cool and warrants attention.

Hey Chris... just had a thought that was interesting...

Using the insanity scale is, as you point out, almost impossible to implement, but what if it affects the characters magic (dreamer magic) and not necessarily the character directly?

ie, the more negative on the scale the more warped and twisted the magic is as it manifests... you want to create a tree, but if you're too far negative it's dead, warped, and tim burtony... you're too positive, and it is far MORE of a tree than you wanted, or literally lifts itself up and walks away (too much life  LOL)

Just a thought, and it really gets you away from Sway influencing emotions, and instead lets you focus on the Virtues as the emotional influencer...

I love it. Absolutely love it. It adds a touch of cthulic evil to the mix through sheer circumstance. Now to work out emotional mages.... hehe

Funny thing is, that was my original idea with the game, Archer. But then sway became a thought and obfuscated that line of thought. Thanks for reviving it :) And it really simplifies things too, which is nice. They are still bound to sway, but now it has a direct link to their "output". Might be interesting to make it work sorta like their mana, and they use sway to cast effects.

Not sure I will go with that last bit...but it might be interesting. I dont think I like it for the Fate points replacement though. I'll have to see how it works once we start testing in jan/feb :)

Chris,

Your have four virtues.  When somebody performs an action that undermines one of these virtues their Sway shifts to the negative, but only if it directly benefits them.  When they do something that enforces one of these virtues their sway shifts positive.  When you sacrifice personal gain for it you get more.  You also loose virtue for "committing evil".  This last one is a bit vague.

For example, if I break an innocent peasant's mind in order to extract information from him to a nation, do I gain or loose sway? 
This action is not for personal gain.  It violates the Compassion virtue (compassion for the peasant) but also reinforces it (compassion for my nation).  According to the rules as you've written them out I believe that I would gain positive sway for this action.  Or can the GM declare it an "evil" and trump my positive shift?

Or what if an enemy army is coming to pillage and rape a village.  In order to save them from this fate, I decide to slaughter the villagers.  (For what ever reason I can not fight the army.)  This does not violate any of my virtues.  It might reinforce Compassion.  After all, I am doing it to spare them an horrible fate.  Does my Sway shift to the positive for this genocide?

It seems a bit odd that a high virtue would reduce the loss of Sway from an immoral action.  This means that if I have a high enough Courage I can act like a complete coward without worrying about the effects.  Likewise I can be a cold blooded killer if my compassion is high enough.  Even if it can never reach levels high enough to allow these extreams, you will have players performing more actions which violate a virtue they have a high number in and fewer actions which violate virtues they have a lower number in.

Consider removing Virtues as a statistic.  But keep them in the game.

If a PC performs an action that...
    ...enforces one of these virtues, +1 Sway
    ...improves the lives of others, +1 Sway
    ...harms an innocent, -1 Sway
    ...undermines of of these virtues, -1 Sway

So if you undermine one of these virtues in order to help others then no sway will be lost.  If you enforce one of these virtues in a way to help others you gain 2 Sway instead of one.  (Stand up to the enemy who wants to take your purse, +1 virtue.  Stand up to the enemy who wants to take an old ladies purse, +2 virtue).

Perhaps each PC can have a "core" virtue.  In this virtue they gain and loose Sway twice as fast.  This would add the same kind of value to your game you would get from your old Virtue system while removing dice rolls and the counter-intuitive nature of the old system.

Merry Christmas!  Consider this feed back my presant to you.  :)

Best,
        Bill

A very interesting mechanic idea. I had initially thought reducing the penalty for way at high virtue made more sense. then i also realised the ideas you were stating in the post....it would enforce bad behavior, in a sense. Instead, I figured high virtue would increase the sway loss if violated, but also increase the gain if "enforced" and in effect, fix the issue.

However, the method in which you present the idea is also applicable. The problem lies only in making it "fair" for everyone, and by making high virtue incur high penalty if violated, we achieve this, and reward them for "good" actions in the process by the same token.

If we limit it to the method you present, it has the same essential effect. The difference being, the moral ambiguity of the situations that would undoubtedly arise are relegated to the back row. This makes things like good and evil a little simpler to define. The kill the villagers example was great...since really, that is a great act of mercy and compassion...kill them all swiftly to spare them the coming rape and pillage....by the old system that would have been GM fiat more than anything else...and we can imagine where THAT would go in the game...especially for a GM who isnt a "round thinking" individual. Many would simply see the death of innocents, and the GM as well as the play-group would want to railroad things to a strictly "save the people" mindset.

Also, making the virtues a quality , vs a statistic, removes a little complexity from things and that can , generally, only be a good thing. I'll def. bear this idea in mind, and see where it can be taken. I'll try play testing with both, and see what is a smoother ride.