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Topic: [The Call] Game Metaphysics
Started by: juandsix
Started on: 12/21/2005
Board: Indie Game Design


On 12/21/2005 at 7:45pm, juandsix wrote:
[The Call] Game Metaphysics

So I wanted to zoom in a bit more on the question of game metaphysics and how it affects the flow of narritive within a game.

Robert Anton Wilson and Tim Leary talk about "metaprograms" - software we run inside our heads which lends a context and a framework to our sensory experience. To a born-again Christian, sunrise of Christmas Morning means something different from sunrise the day before or the day after: same phenomena, different metaprogram.

In a sense, "reality" is the props, and the "metaprogram" is the script.

Games ship with a metaphysics which is just as real as the game physics represented by their fighting system. Sometimes it is more explicit (AD&D Gods or Warhammer's Fate Points) and sometimes less explicit or occluded (Vampire's off-screen Cain if I recall correctly).

A lot of times, the rationale of the game setting is defined by the metaphysics: Vampire and Mage, for example, blur the line between physics and metaphysics. D&D is rather an interesting case because Magic Users operate essentially outside of the metaphysical framework of the game (that being more the Cleric's domain). I think that's part of why D&D magic feels so mechanical: it's in the "physics" not the "metaphysics" domain.

For "The Call" I'd like to make the "metaphysical universe" that the characters are in part of the game mechanics. There would basically be three "stances":

1> [Unbelief] Basic Scientific Materialism, or Religious Belief based on Faith (not Experience)
- the starting point for most characters.

2> [Investigation] The Truth Is Out There - Or In Here
- some experience, or perhaps a Leap of Faith resulting in a stance where one could call G_d's name and mean it
- still an exploratory stance

3> [Discovery] Eureka!
- a character has an insight into the nature of reality which defines their beliefs and behavior from that point onwards. Seeing a demon or a vampire would do it, but so would a vision of Christ as they're pulled from a burning car wreck essentially unharmed.

4> [Mastery]
- a character builds knowledge and skill around the truth they have discovered. In D&D term, that'd be the Cleric building skills around the Faith that their god is Real.

In state 2 dialog is possible: people can discuss experiences and beliefs, compare notes, learn. In state 3, the door is closed: people *KNOW* the truth and that's more or less the end of the matter. The Great Old Ones are rising, Vampires are real, the Templars still run the World, whatever it happens to be is *real* and displaces standard materialism or lukewarm faith as the foundation of perspective.

Of course, most traditional games have a single Underlying Truth which frames the entire game and it's mechanics. I think that's boring and entirely too convenient.

For "The Call" I envisage something a bit more twisted: all these truths seem completely real to their adherents, and that may include some of the player characters. But, in fact, the game can take place in one of three gears:

0> It's all psychological BS in the minds of the believers, and there is either no truth, or nobody knows it.

1> One (or a few) of the belief systems is real, and the rest are unreal. Vampires exist because of a virus and they run the world. Or the Templars are immortal alchemists led by Jesus, or whatever the case may be.

2> All of the belief systems are real, either because reality is not continuous (i.e. truths create their own microworlds) or because reality is fluid enough to contain all of these completing realities simultaniously. What the thinker thinks, the prover proves.

This ties into what I had envisaged for the magic / occult / metaphysical system for the game: secret truths reveal secret powers.

I feel this grounds the progression and lends itself to an investigative style of play: the metagame bonus for finding hidden truths is that one can use these truths like objects. Of course this requires a strict understanding of the difference between Faith and Knowledge, beteen Belief and Initiation. A "goth teenager" character may Believe in Vampires, but the first time they see one, they're still going to freak out completely (either on the spot or later as it sinks in). The initiation of sharing a car ride with a 600 year old man who feeds on blood to survive and curses the day they died twice an hour is a different kind of truth.

The goal of this model is to ground magic in a way that is more sophisticated than "some people can do it, and some people can't."

Start with the base case: Magic Is Real. That's a Secret Truth right there. Perhaps a character is still getting used to and testing the idea: that's the Investigation phase. These are major truths, and each one should be played as a life-altering event if it happens in game time.

Of course, it's never going to be that bald and unvarnished. Oh no. While the abstract, Mechanical Truth would be "Magic is Real" the roleplayed truth would be "The Magicians of the Order of the Sunrise Can Do Magic Because of their Ties to the Ancient Powers of Atlantis." Then that truth gets built on as characters develop capabilities in the new territory revealed by this discovery.

Interesting angles: characters who believe different things interact. Does one prove to another that this Unthinkable Secret Truth is real, or is it just glossed over.

Even more interesting: what if some of these truths are *false* from the perspective of the Game Master? Yes, the character Believes in the Secret Truth but, in actual fact, it's all in their head. The use of psychic powers is rolled for just as if it was real, but in fact the information that comes back is random hogwash... How long before characters wise up? Possibly never...

Other angles: characters initiating each other. One does an act of magic before others who don't believe, and as a result, they now believe. Can the skill be transferred along with the knowledge?

GAME MECHANICS
- a Truth List or Truth Tree - a list of discoveries with associated skills which open up once those truths are discovered.

- Some way of modeling how *reality* works: it it all nonsense, is some of it real, or is it all real to those experiencing it.

- A way of modeling disbelief, where somebody is exposed to a Truth and does not take it in.

I'm still fleshing out how this background connects to the bit I wanted to examine most of all: the "Call" to some kind of higher purpose, or fate. Possibly everything above is actually unrelated bits of another game idea creeping in ;-)

Thanks for your patience!

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On 12/21/2005 at 8:16pm, joepub wrote:
Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

Very interesting idea.

Just something I think might add to the game: some kind of mechanic/outline for Reactions. If I find out vampires do exist - at the Discovery level... I'm not going to just accept it.
I'm going to fight the belief - go to elaborate lengths to keep my world running status quo.

Or, take for example The Matrix (the first movie, not those rubbish sequels). It kind of seems like Neo could most DEFINATELY be a blueprint character for The Call.

Anyways, if I were playing The Call set in a matrix setting... why wouldn't I take the blue pill?
Why wouldn't I want my reality to stay.... real?

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On 12/21/2005 at 8:24pm, juandsix wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

That suggests a set of traits around that resistance, that stuckness - for some people it might be a fear of madness, or a desire to feel they know the truth already, or fear of the unknown, or a fear they're going against society... fear of change...

I wonder, too, if there aren't truths which are inherently dangerous... like once you know the Illuminati are real, well, then you're involved, and perhaps that's dangerous in-and-of itself.

We see all of that in The Matrix, different characters reacting to their new status in different ways, some even failing to adapt (Cipher) in dangerous ways...

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On 12/21/2005 at 9:53pm, joepub wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

Personally, I think this idea would be COOLEST because you'd have to play those reactions.

Just like some psychologists group came up with the 5 stages of grief:
Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

Maybe you could come up with a set of stages of belief that is more REACTIONARY than state of awareness.

While your Unbelief, Investigation, Discovery and Mastery does very nicely cover the stages of becoming aware of something...  it seems a little... robotic? (something along those lines.)

Maybe the stages could look like:
Unaware
Glimpse at Truth
Disbelief
Inquiry
Confusion
Anger
Grasping Truth
Accepting Truth

Something along those lines, where players must react. They can't just say "oh, vampires. Sweet" and carry on.

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On 12/21/2005 at 9:56pm, joepub wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

And if you did go with Reactionary stages, maybe certain players have the ability to bypass certain stages? Like maybe calm, cool Micheal doens't get angry. Or it's only brief, token anger.

If you want a cool, yet possibly confusing way of approaching reactions: Reaction tree.
If I knew how to use the insert table option, I'd draw one.

But that way, players can react in different ways, and end up at one or more endings. One ending might let you use powers that are given by that truth, another let you dominate that truth, another let you ignore it.

Just an idea.

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On 12/21/2005 at 11:15pm, juandsix wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

I really like the idea of these REACTIONS to awareness as a central dynamic. Excellent.

I think this has some implications for the Call of Cthulhu overhauls which have been extensively discussed too - it's a lot nicer than just straight SAN loss.

By the way, feel free to pitch in on this: I'm considering all development work on "The Call" open source or public domain, so contribute / use at will!

I think there's some additional structure around these Truths or Secrets or whatever:

* Other people who know the truth
  - cultists, societies, government agencies etc.
* Implications
  - now you know that Cthulhu is rising, now what?
* Investigations
  - Ok, so Magic is real - what does that mean? How do I *do* magic?

I want to avoid a Rifts-like system which wires these pools of reality into the structure of the (meta)physical universe, opting for something more fluid and tricksy - a world in which, yes, perhaps that did happen, and perhaps it didn't... where truth doesn't necessarily travel well, and just because you saw a Byakhee come down from space doesn't mean that NORAD saw it too, or that you can make it happen again...

In some ways that's the central mystery: what's the limit on Real?

We've got *excellent* evidence that thousands of years ago, and up until the present in many places, otherwise sane people believe in talking snakes, magic that works, visits by space aliens, saints who appear in visions and dreams and sometimes in physical bodies, and an afterlife of various kinds.  The possibility that, *for those people* it was and is completely real, but for us it isn't, is a good enough lump of weirdness that a game shouldn't expect to explain it, only faithfully allow people to play with it :-)

I still can't quite figure out how this connects to "The Call" itself, though.

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On 12/21/2005 at 11:55pm, joepub wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

Some movies I love that I personally think could help inspire this game:
-12 Monkeys
-The Matrix

12 Monkeys because it not only deals with this game topic - it deals with it in reverse. The protagonist starts out knowing that the virus, the destruction of mankind, and time travel are real. And by the middle he believes himself to be "simply divergent".

The Matrix because its one of the most OBVIOUS examples, even if it is one of the crudest and simplest.
But also because I think the red pill/blue pill concept could be key - there's the choice to try and block out the truth.

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On 12/22/2005 at 12:00am, joepub wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

The possibility that, *for those people* it was and is completely real, but for us it isn't, is a good enough lump of weirdness that a game shouldn't expect to explain it, only faithfully allow people to play with it :-)


I like this concept - The mechanical bonuses for putting faith in a Truth should be such that it *could* be explained as psychological/etc and not paranormal... that way, the nonbelievers are still centered in their reality as long as they want to be.

I still can't quite figure out how this connects to "The Call" itself, though.

I kind of like the idea that these Truths are basically like dumping a destiny in someone's lap.
It's like saying, "Vampires are going to do x. You know about vampires. If you want to be a good person, do the math."

Basically, let players act or not act based on the Truths and Needs they are handed.
Hand them information that only they (and a small group of people know) and see if they take up the initiative or not.

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On 12/22/2005 at 12:43am, dindenver wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

Hi!
  Well, what if this was all mechanical? So each character assigns traits to their personality. Maybe Openness, Logic, Social, etc. All of the traits have a range of values and are all on the same side of the spectrum so that low values might represent Closed-mindedness, Flightiness or anti-social, etc. AND having values at one end enhance your ability to learn new truths. BUT, having values on the other side enhances your ability to deal with normal people and daily life. For instance, it is hard to take in a world-shattering truth if you are highly logical, but logic may help you make lots of money as a scientist, engineer, accountatn or lawyer...
  Then, assign a trait to a truth, so that some characters are more likely to accept some truths, while others may never be able to. e.g., The Flighty character finds it easy to believe in the Fae, while the open-minded character is put off by their closed society and keeping of secrets and very structured and ordered society. Sometihng like that?

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On 12/22/2005 at 12:59am, juandsix wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

The beauty of that approach - where the truths themselves compel action - it that it nicely ties together "The Call" and the Secrets. Obviously the weld will need some work, but I think what you get out of it is a notion where a character is Called to discover some Truths, and then perhaps to Do Something about them.

I really like that it doesn't privilege the Real either. I think one could go a long way with a setting in which it is not clear until fairly high levels whether the Illuminati really are talking to the Aliens about the Future of Humanity, or whether the Illuminati are a bunch of guys who have convinced each other that somebody in the club is talking to the aliens.

I think without a fairly hearty dose of delusion, there's no disincentive to going around believing in everything and seeing how far you can get. The notion that a lot of the Bad Guys are simply people who have come to believe things which are Not True, or failed their rolls to assimilate Important Secret Truths and are now fucked up because they're still fighting against the evidence of their own senses...

I like the world this paints, in which there is Black, and there is White, but you're never sure if what you are looking at is Really It. A world in which characters can come face to face with Angels and then, two days later, debate whether that was real or not...


Fred Did that really happen? I mean, yeah, we went to the abandoned church and they really were wearing robes and burning incense and chanting. I know that's real, we've got it on tape. But the guy in the circle, Angel0... I've seen him in daylight and he DOES NOT HAVE WINGS!
George Look, I don't know, you know? People sometimes see things - UFOs, BigFoot, the Men In Black. You know that. I know that. You've read The Gernsbach Continuum just as often as I have, sifting for clues as to what Gibson really was tapping into when he downloaded the Cyberpunk Future. We know that unreal things are completely convincing at times...
Fred How do we know anything is real? Did we just see a Man become an Angel, or just the inside of our own tiny minds...
Henry Look, guys, I hate to tell you this now but this is the third or fouth time I've seen something like this, and let me tell you, it's all real. All that stuff in the grimoires, all that stuff in the myths, the Illuminati, the Agents, all of it.
Fred, George ???
Henry For the fifteen seconds while you're squarely facing it, it's as real as stomache cramp. All the religions, all the stories, all of that stuff really happened... even if it's only inside the minds of the people who were there. Our job seems to be to help stop the bad stuff getting through into the consensus reality, into the place where people live most of the time, to keep the weirdness at the fringes, where it belongs. That's what makes it weird.


What's interesting about a game that works this way it that is presents some really interesting roles for characters:

There are the two simple stances:

1> Trying to manifest Good Weird (i.e. summoning helpful angels or magically curing diseases)
2> Trying to stop manifestation of Bad Weird (Cthulhu)

Plus:

3> Trying to prevent manifestation of *any* weird (because it's, say, bad for reality)

It's a small step to having players cast as Agents in the Matrix sense, fighting against *ALL* the weird...

Fred Please, let's not gun down any more angels. Please, this time, let it be spooks. Or something with tentacles. Even demons.... I just can't keep doing this.

But then this is back into the standard Guardians of Reality script. My gut tells me that there's a different way to handle this, not necessarily a reduction in how black and white things are, but something that's entirely more about how culture and consensus reality creates what is possible, not in the black-and-white sense, but in the creative, productive sense.

Think of the same game setting around the time of the Buddha where you've got this huge community of faith, and miracles, and the odd demon (Hello Mara!) and so on all running around.

Reality is fluid, fungible... socially powerful figures have converted, the traditional beliefs are under attack... the Secret, Powerful Truth is that the Buddha is Enlightened, and the Four Noble Truths are exactly what they appear to be...

See where I'm going with this?

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On 12/22/2005 at 1:05am, juandsix wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

Dindenver,  I like the idea that an openness to new ideas can be exploited - one one hand, openness and learning, on the other, outright gullibility.

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On 12/22/2005 at 1:39am, dindenver wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

Hi!
  I think if you took your time to balance them, With one end of the spectrum being useful in the real world and the other end bing useful in descovering esoteric knowledge.
  And if you assign traits to Truths and balance the truths across the traits, then there won't be any need for randomizing or point buying, since every value in the range of values is useful and beneficial.

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On 12/22/2005 at 2:26am, joepub wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

I think if you took your time to balance them, With one end of the spectrum being useful in the real world and the other end bing useful in descovering esoteric knowledge.


I really like where you're going with this one.
Would there be a set list of traits, or would they be freeform?

And, a possibility I want to add to all of this: reaction tree.

For example, maybe the tree could look like:

A. Disbelief
                          AB. Verification
B. Confusion
                          BC. Inquiry                  (AB)(BD) Belief, Hatred of +2
C. Curiousity
                          BD. Aggression
D. Anger

This is an excerpt of a possible Reaction Tree: obviously not as well thought out as the end one would be.
All end results would either be Belief, Limited Belief, or Disbelief.

However, they'd all also end with an ATTITUDE towards the Truth. In the example, the person hates the Truth, but believes in it fully.

What do you think?

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On 12/22/2005 at 3:06am, dindenver wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

Hi!
  As far as a reaction stream, I was thinking:
1 ) Character has low Logic, they are terrible with money and business matters. Looking up their bank account balance is like a random number. They also have a high Social, he makes friends easily and had faith in humanity.
2 ) Character's flighty personality feeds their vision of unlimited possibilities
3 ) In a wild inspiration, they wander off the beaten path in India. Soon they see things that would blow other people's minds, but they see it as a natural part of their perception
4 ) After talking to the gurus, they say things that don;t make a lot of sense, but he accepts those statements as real.
5 ) Eventually, they take him into their confidence and he learns their secrets

  Or alternatively,
3a ) Character has many friends in an artists' commune they attended for a time. Finally, one of them takes the character into their confidence. And reveals that the commune is a front for a secret oganization known as "The Majestic" And that they were all recuited from within the commune for their creative talents and connections.
4a ) The character is totally sociable and has faith in humanity and rejects that the person they knew so well had a whole secret life they did not know or suspect
5a ) The character never learns the secrets of "The Majestic" but leads a well socially adjusted life

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On 12/22/2005 at 3:23am, dindenver wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

Hi!
  Oops, what I forgot to add was that if you do it this way, then the player is free to roleplay the outcome and will pass or fail based on their attributes. And I was thinking of a set list of attributes, maybe:
Curiosity - Desire to learn, low values mean character is confident
Obsession - No fear in the face of their sole desire, low values mean character has a more normalized view of reality and can relate to normal people better
Awareness - How open character is to their senses, low values represent ambitious, take-charge characters
  This is just a beginning, but I thikn it shows what I mean...

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On 12/22/2005 at 12:12pm, contracycle wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

I want to avoid a Rifts-like system which wires these pools of reality into the structure of the (meta)physical universe, opting for something more fluid and tricksy - a world in which, yes, perhaps that did happen, and perhaps it didn't... where truth doesn't necessarily travel well, and just because you saw a Byakhee come down from space doesn't mean that NORAD saw it too, or that you can make it happen again...


Well, if experiences are not real to all observers, and are not independantly reproducible, what should I or anyone care about what you saw?  I mean, if seeing a Byakhee come down from space does not imply that say the locals might be in danger, cos ya know, perception is "subjective", then why would anyone care?  The sighting means nothing becuase it has no consequences.

I think this kind of subjectivity is an extraordinarily bad idea in a game that occurs in the imaginations of its players.  It amounts to refusing to firmly establish the imaginary space.

Henry For the fifteen seconds while you're squarely facing it, it's as real as stomache cramp. All the religions, all the stories, all of that stuff really happened... even if it's only inside the minds of the people who were there. Our job seems to be to help stop the bad stuff getting through into the consensus reality, into the place where people live most of the time, to keep the weirdness at the fringes, where it belongs. That's what makes it weird.


Well, if it only ever happened inside the minds of the people who were there, then they are simply delusional and nobody else has to worry.  I mean, if this effect was so trivial as to be unable to reach beyond the head of the "observer", it poses not threat to me or mine.

A world which DOES have secrets, real tangible secrets that don't care if you believe in them, is something I find interesting.  A world which only has the appearance of secrets, however, is not very interestesting.

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On 12/22/2005 at 9:22pm, juandsix wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

Isn't this the core question, though? Is BigFoot Real?

We play games in which the Supernatural is simply assumed into hard, tangible reality: you can go hunting for these things (infamously) with shotguns. It's Dungeons and Dragons with meaner, eviler monsters (in many cases) and far worse odds.

But, you know, if CoC characters leveled up and got more hit points and spells, just like D&D Characters did, you can see how this would go: "the Ghoul bites your for 11 hit points" "ok, I'm down to 28 HP I better think about getting out of here."

It's my reading, from looking at eyewitness accounts of supernatural events - UFO sightings particularly - that something *weird* does happen to the narritive flow of reality. People travel into some kind of altered state, *then* the UFOs appear, then they come back again. Sometimes physical reality bears the scars: radioactive footprints or peasants relocated hundreds of miles away. But more often there's no tangible physical evidence left behind.

That is interesting. The idea that these things happen pretty frequently, at least in people's own minds (check the abduction stats!) - and very, very infrequently do they happen in a way which leaves tangible physical evidence opens up a lot of territory.

Perhaps the cultists can summon a Byakhee. And they all see it. But it can't "maintain" itself outside of  a rural, isolated location with only True Believers present. Mebbe the unconscious psychic backpressure of downtown Boston acts like a magical shield, the combined weight of the disbelief of the unconscious magicians scattered through the population forming an unbreakable spell of "YOU DON'T EXIST!"

Again, I'm not suggesting that as an actual play mechanic (yet) but you get the idea: without taking it all the way down to the mat ala Rifts and providing mechanical models for these bubbles of competing realities, I think there's a lot of milage in **playing into the distrust of one's own experiences.**

It's altogether too easy in a world where you *know* the monsters are real to simply saddle up and go spook hunting. It's all to easy to go from The Exorcist to Ghostbusters in two sessions. "Holy water? Check" "Little low on Garlic, let's hit the supermarket on the way out to Arkham"

In a sense, this is the more *real* version of SAN loss leading to insanity. In CoC SAN loss represents a mixture of post traumatic stress disorder, and dysphoria induced by realizing that humanity is a snack food.

Hardly ever is it played as uncertainty about the Nature of the Real but, actually, that's where most of the action is in the real world. The UFO nuts might be right - or they might be having the same experience as people Taken Away by the Faeries in Rural Eire 400 years ago. Same with the BigFoot guys.

Reality isn't even and continuous, nor does it form tight, isolated bubbles: Bigfoot is Real inside of this 20x20 mile box, and unreal outside of it. There's something more subtle going on where people's beliefs factor into how they filter evidence, into what they will ignore and what they will objectify and what they will religiously believe in.

I want to try and find a way of representing that *relative* reality. I'm not suggesting that the Monsters *can't* come play downtown, but if the illusion that the game world is like the real world is to be maintained, they come down town in suits and ties, and they eat in basements, not bars.

One final angle. A warewolf - or all the warewolves, or a vampire - and all the vampires - are very, very pathetic monstered when compared to a Hitler. The reality is that human evil is much, much more terrible than goblins or Byakhee. It would be nice to see a game which had something intelligent to say about that too. A game which actually acknowledges that, compared to the Humans, whatever supernatural races exist are comparatively benign. Even if Great Cthulhu rises, he's just a hungry alien. It's the people who work for him, herding the rest of the population into his Great Maw that are the real evils here.

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On 12/22/2005 at 9:54pm, joepub wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

Well, if it only ever happened inside the minds of the people who were there, then they are simply delusional and nobody else has to worry.  I mean, if this effect was so trivial as to be unable to reach beyond the head of the "observer", it poses not threat to me or mine.

A world which DOES have secrets, real tangible secrets that don't care if you believe in them, is something I find interesting.  A world which only has the appearance of secrets, however, is not very interestesting.


This strikes me as a bit of a naive way of looking at this. Picture 12 Monkeys here (if you've seen it). The guy knows about deadly virus, know about time travel...
He *has* fucking time travelled. But he still talks himself out of it during the movie.
And the psychologist talks herself out of it despite glaring truths, until finally the build-up of evidence is too great to deny any longer.

I think that's what we're getting at with the idea that truths are subjective - most people want to exist within a rigid box.

The reality is that human evil is much, much more terrible than goblins or Byakhee. It would be nice to see a game which had something intelligent to say about that too. A game which actually acknowledges that, compared to the Humans, whatever supernatural races exist are comparatively benign. Even if Great Cthulhu rises, he's just a hungry alien. It's the people who work for him, herding the rest of the population into his Great Maw that are the real evils here.


*Starts applauding Juan's brilliance*
I don't see how that fits into the rest of the game (yet), but that's definately a good angle to push. The fact that after you find the bizarre, you find the humanity in it... which only exposes the GAP of humanity in regular humans.

very nice.

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On 12/22/2005 at 10:24pm, juandsix wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

By the way, just to chase this hare a little further (even though it has a bit too much of a lead for me to catch ;-) )

What if the Human Population seriously went after the Vampires and other Monsters? House-to-house searches by the Men in Black with Detect Undead Boxes. Compulsory DNA testing for warewolves... Anti-Monster Fascism.

Great Gulags where the Monster Population is rounded up and the Vampires limp by on synthetic blood while Nanny State tries to figure out if, in fact, a Vampiric American is a Human Being with an Illness, or an Animated Corpse that needs to be inanimated as quickly as Due Process of Law allows. Perhaps it's the Born Agains who run the camps, and they allow everybody to live because they might still find Jesus, or because the second coming is immanent...

I'm just not sure that, in an all-out-war between the Traditional Monsters and the High Tech Humans the bad guys win, or even survive. Of course, this is true of Organized Crime too - Mafia vs US Army is a fairly short engagement if fought in the open field.

But this matters - the idea that the Monsters only *survive* because they're underground, because nobody believes in them, because the massed power of the human race is never turned on them - changes the dynamics remarkably.

Players who find themselves in the Underworld - who're asking the Mob for favors, or otherwise outside of the Rule of Law - they might have to deal with a world in which the monsters are Very, Very powerful. But it's the power of corruption, not the power of the massed Orc Armies of the West who might just be able to over-run the Human Race or the power of the UFO-flying Raygun-Toting Space Aliens.

In both LOTR and CoC the Small Evils - the Orcs and the Ghouls - are menacing because they're backed up by the Big Evils - Sauron and Morgoth, and the Great Old Ones. There's a great polarity, Heaven / Humanity vs. Hell / Inhuman Monsters. Play seems significant because these are the tactical skirmishes that becomes strategic push/pull in the Great War.

That's true of the X-Files as well: the threat of Alien Invasion is what makes an abducted truck driver into an incident. Monster-of-the-week is a curiosity, with some personal danger, but the big issues are Agency Support. If the Heavy Firepower of the Agency can be brought to bear, no monster-of-the-week is a real challenge. The real danger isn't critters, it's a bureaucracy unable to effectively respond to critters.

I don't know exactly where I'm going with this in game terms, but I think perhaps what I'm driving towards is a game where the *skirmishes* that Players get into aren't automatically part of a Great War. Perhaps different groups understand their actions to be *part* of that Great War, but misunderstand or are misled.


Eyewitness It wasn't till the fourth or fifth time I'd seen them set down in the cow pasture that it came to me. "Those ain't soldiers, even if they are aliens. Them's joyriding kids!" and I thought about what they'd done to some of my friends, and I knew I had to do something. I'd heard that if you shot 'em the bullets just bounced off, but I was in 'Nam, you know, and I ain't forgot everything they told me, so I buried two gas cans and a handgrenade right under where they normally land and I waited, buried in the dirt right over here...

I'm sorry the saucer is all burned out and the bodies are gone. They just kind of disintegrated in the fire like they was made of wax or something, or didn't have no bones.

Agent, visibly shaken Well, thank you Tom. Thank you very much...


It's all very different if the loss of that saucer brings down a mothership that levels Los Angeles. It's all very different if the Cultists are backed up by Elder Gods.

But there's no reason for players, at the beginning of a game, to know that the Elder Gods are real, that the Vampires are actually strong enough to eat the whole human race because they're 2,000,000 of them sleeping in Egypt.

In the beginning nobody should be sure. Perhaps this is another aspect of this Call business: if you find out that there really is a Big Threat then you're commited. But perhaps, just perhaps, you can "win" by successfully fighting your skirmish and then standing down before you get sucked into the Great Game.

PS: Thanks, Joepub!

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On 12/22/2005 at 11:06pm, joepub wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

Vampires limp by on synthetic blood while Nanny State tries to figure out if, in fact, a Vampiric American is a Human Being with an Illness, or an Animated Corpse that needs to be inanimated as quickly as Due Process of Law allows.


Hahahahaha. That's gold. That could be turned into its own game!

Anyways, I like the idea that there are few, if any, giant societies keeping this all "under wraps". I like the idea that you are a believer among skeptics, if you believe at all.
(just my two cents)

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On 12/23/2005 at 5:46pm, juandsix wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

A bit more on the framing of the occult / supernatural / science fiction elements.

So my idea is that characters start out with some or no exposure to the Weird Universe - they might have capabilities and have some Secrets either individually or in common, but they don't have a bombproof, cohesive world model. Furthermore, at a metagame level, the rules make it quite clear that there are a variety of scenarios which might be The Truth, and only the GM (if even they!) really Know What Is Out There.

The Unknown is important. Great Cthulhu may or may not exist, and if It Does, it may or may not be like Lovecraft's depiction. The foundation of reality is fluid because:

1> The Call does not define a single rigid underlying reality like Vampires or UFOs
2> Players only know what their characters know about Reality
3> The GM can make up their mind about what is Real as they go, as the game unfolds.

You Cannot Count on Anything is a fundamental.

So here's a general outline of the game flow:

Characters start with, let's say, 5 points of CALL. Those points are converted or lost over play in three ways:

1> A point of call can be used to master a Secret Truth (and associated powers) on first exposure. At the first hint of something a character can roleplay the reaction of I ALWAYS KNEW IT WAS LIKE THAT, SINCE I WAS A CHILD or something along those lines, and absorb the new reality immediately. Subjecively, it appears that the Path Unfolds at Your Feet.

2> A point of call can be used to fudge results ala Warhammer Fate Points. Frowned upon except in exceptional circumstances because, usually, points are more valuable for absorbing new realities. The needs of the day shouldn't supplant the thirst to understand what is real!

3> Call points can be lost if a character acts in ways which are antithetical to the Call itself: a wounded character knows they should follow the car with the abducted child, but they're bleeding pretty badly and decide to go to the hospital instead. It might keep them alive, but it'll also potentially cost them a point of call. Some kind of a dice roll would probably be appropriate "15% chance of a point of call being lost" and you roll, and if it's OK, well, you make it to the hospital and somebody else has a lead on the car that you can follow - a weird synchronicity saves your butt, basically. The more Call you have, the more likely it is that things like this happen!

Of course, the more call you have, the more likely it is that Weird Shit will keep coming into your path demanding attention.

As a model, at Low levels of call, one or two points, you're the Trouble Magnet Beat Cop who always gets the crazy cases.

At Five points, you're Mulder or Scully.

At Seven or Nine points, you're the guy from the Celestine Prophecy.

At 15 points, you're Frodo Baggins.

I'm not sure how one increases these Call points beyond the initial levels. One option is that it's scenario / decision based: characters decide to get involved in something messy and interesting, and points are granted based on having stepped up to plate. "You want me to follow the Cultists to Brazil?" "Yes, Mr Jones, I do. And  I have $5m in cash to fund your travels, and those of your team, if you can guarentee me results...." (GM aside: and there's four points of Call here too.)

What's interesting about this is that Call is in some way owned by the *situation* and not the *character* - it could be that if you bail on the situation, the loss-of-Call is simply the situation reassigning it's Weirdness to somebody else who's willing to step up to plate and play the role the situation requires.

I think there might be some milage in that idea, but I'm still exploring it.

I'd really welcome some feedback on how this is looking to your variously-experienced eyes: does it look like there's enough of a concept here to flesh out into a game?

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On 12/23/2005 at 7:45pm, dindenver wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

Hi!
  JUst a thought, but maybe instead of Call Points being like a carrot dangled in front of the player, they relate directly to secrets and truth.
  For instance, maybe players get Call Points for teaching others secrets and/or truths..?

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On 12/23/2005 at 8:03pm, juandsix wrote:
RE: Re: [The Call] Game Metaphysics

Hm.

I don't know. "The Call" is a mysterious thing - I don't have an understanding of it in Real Life where it shimmers in and out of perception depending on how you look at it. Lawrence of Arabia is really my Main Man on this whole Call business: one gay english academic vs. an Army and, by god, he builds an alliance unheard of in local history, crosses an impossibly horrible desert, has to kill a man who's life he earlier saved and at the end of all of it, retires home to Merry Old England.

You know? What the heck was going on there. That's supernatural, in a sense.

I feel that "Call Points" should more-or-less compel people to try and rise to those heights: if you wind up with a bunch of them, life should *suck* unless you're living the bold life of adventure to which your soul calls you. Clearly double-edged swords...

Definitely not experience points. Definitely not.

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