I am currently working on a game that is influenced by Alice in wonderland, Mirrormask, Labyrinth, Wizard of Oz,

I am at the design stage and am working on the rules at the moment. I think that for the genre that d6s will work best with a simple target number for tests. I am debating the need for a combat mechanic or if a general physical mechanic will do just as well.

The players play children lost in the second land between the age of 7 to 14. The younger your character is the less skilled they are but the more they are able to use there imagination to help them at key moments in the story.

I am open to any contribution from members here. This is my first serious stab at game design so I guess I'm ready to get a bloody nose.

Thank you in advance for any feed back.

Hi, Aldoth, welcome!

It's a bit hard to say much about your game - you haven't posted very many details. You'll probably get more and better replies if you can post a bit more.

A few questions/comments:

1. Why a combat mechanic? Is combat important to the feeling of the game?
2. How does using a character's skill differ from using their imagination? It would be great if you could provide some examples of how you see this being used!

Heya Aldoth,

Welcome to the Forge!  A combat mechanic for that sort of game does sound a little wierd to me.  I'd have to know more about your game to give you a solid oppinion tho.  At first blush, it would seem that imagination, curiosity, and bravery would be a characters main stats rather that stuff like attack and defense.

I think you've hit on an interesting idea here.  Maybe you could answer a few quick questions for me?

1.  What is the point of play in your game?  IE, what facets of things like Alice and Oz are you wanting the players and characters to explore?

2.  What do the characters do in your game?  In OZ for instance, each of the main characters (including the witch) had a goal they worked to achieve.  What will motivate characters in your game to act?

3.  How do the players play their characters?  I mean, what sorts of freedoms, responsibilities, and tools do you give the players to play?  How are narration right divided?  And What do you expect the players to *get* out of playing your game?

Glad to see you here, Aldoth.  I hope we can help you on your way :)

Peace,

-Troy

Here is the notes Ive got so far
Adventures In The Second Land

Characters
Name
Age
Cleverness = Points Pool
Quickness = Points Pool
Bravery = Points Pool
Scrappy = Points Pool
Imagination = 15 – age.

Memory = Chapters
Heart = Chapters
Innocence = Chapters
Joy = Chapters

Health = Chapters + 1d6

Rules
A character rolls there stat in d6s and adds the stat number and has to roll over the target number.

1 Failer
6 Automatic Success
you have the number of points equal to your age
From 7 to 14 years old
Your imagination is your age – 15.
Imagination gives you points to spend every day to save your but. You spend imagination points to save your character each game.
Your age points you can use bid on what skills you want to be best at.

Characters Opposed Actions
You roll and the highest number of successes wins. You can spend self points to add to successes.

Features
Cute
Neat
Messy
Bookish
Overweight
Talkative
Stuttering
Knowledgeable
Kind
Generous
Greedy
Selfish
Unselfish
Angry
Sad
Happy

Beacons
Father
Mother
Parents
Dog
Cat
Brother
Sister
A toy
A book
Best Friend
Optional – Other characters
Guides
Guides are characters that can hinder or help the character. If the characters find a helpful guide they gain imagination points.

Guides have all stats at 2 and talents equal to the chapter that they first appear in. There imagination is equal to the number of chapters that they have been in the game for.

Barons
The lords of the second land they are the tools that the land uses to capture a character. They will have a point pool equal to the characters imagination score plus the number of characters in the tale.

Shickens
Henchmen of Barons most Shicken have all attributes at 1 and a talent.

Talismans

Talismans are items that you can find in the second land that can help you. You spend self points to acquire Talismans.

Childhood fantasy.

Labyrinth, Mirrormask, Spirited Away, Alice in Wonderland, The Oz books, Books of Magic, Changeling,

Avoiding getting lost.

You loose a point at the end of every chapter if they ever drop to zero you get lost in the land. This gives you a ticking clock.

The ticking clock is to finding your beacon.

The land is the bad guy.

There are characters that help you and characters that hinder you. They will try to trick you.

The shadow creatures Shickens.

Barons are lords of there own realms.

Player contribution.

Shicken work for the the Barons

Guides can help or hinder you if you loose you character to the land you play your guide which is a limited character to try and rescue your character from the land

The event. That shunts the characters into the Lend of the second world.

Who are you is important.

You represent an opportunity for the NPCs in the game. They want to poses you or something that you represent. They steal your beacon because they want to get to you. They feed off you in some way or another.

There goal is to posses you.

Independence is important to your character. You are fighting to remain free of the influence of the land. It can steal attributes but you gain advantages.

You can take parts of the land back with you but then you are allowing the land to enter into our world.

Your beacon is the one thing that you don't know that you don't want to loose.

So this is everything that i have so far

I have copied and pasted 2 documents so it is a bit all over the place but that is the start

Welcome to the Forge, dude!

Just a quick note - it seems like you've set this up so that the older you are, the more competent you are and the better your imagination is.  I'd suggest that to reflect the genre, you might want to reverse this.  I could also see just reversing imagination, if that is notably powerful in the game.  That might provide a nice balance between general capability, represented by increasing age and maturity, and imagination, which decreases in potency as you get older. 

--Jason

I see I got that wrong, sorry.  Imagination = 15 minus age, so younger = better.

Hi!
  Welcome to the Forge! OK, onto the comments:
  How is Scrappyness differentiated from Bravery or Cleverness? It seems like the first 3 attributes are well defined and mostly distinguishable from the others, and then you have Scrappiness...

Memory = Chapters
Heart = Chapters
Innocence = Chapters
Joy = Chapters

Health = Chapters + 1d6

Basically, I think this is pretty good. It looks solid as is, and certainly doesn't need a combat system bolted on. I suspect that's exactly what you were thinking, but you came here and asked because every other system seems to have one. Forget it. You're almost good to go with a quick edit and some guidance in terms of adventure design.

The main thing that jumped out at me is cosmetic to a degree, but I'd be lying if I didn't admit it affected my reading. You need to work some on editing your text - there are a lot of typos.

The essential question I have is how do the Schickens, the Barons, and the Guides interact? What might they want from one another and the PCs?

I'm going to chime in -- I haven't scoured every one else's replies yet.  But I need some clarification about "combat mechanic"

If you mean "beating up mythical creatures" then, no.  If you mean "kids playing at fighting" then, most definitely yes.  In fact, I think you'd be remiss if you didn't include some sort of structure for how children play at violence.

Now, I'm going back to read everything in-depth.

Ok firstly thank you everyone for your contribution.

I appologise for my bad spelling I will obviously give this a hard edit when I come to typing up the first draft of the rules

Here is a long answer to several queations. You guys have been a big help and the game is starting to take shape.

How is Scrappyness differentiated from Bravery or Cleverness? It seems like the first 3 attributes are well defined and mostly distinguishable from the others, and then you have Scrappiness...

I take it Chapters=XPs? Or is that Chapters of background? Either way, Innocence tends to go down as the character experiences more of these tails of wonder.

Another question I have is, how does the game deal with "bad kids"? For instance, an unruly child is almost always included in the group in the source materials. But if you have 3 or 4 players and one of them is off getting turkish delight while the others are playing as a group, how do you want to deal with the group spending a disproportionate amount of time on one character? And what if more than one want to be bad, or all of them?

.  What is the point of play in your game?  IE, what facets of things like Alice and Oz are you wanting the players and characters to explore?

Aldoth wrote: You represent an opportunity for the NPCs in the game. They want to poses you or something that you represent. They steal your beacon because they want to get to you. They feed off you in some way or another. [Their] goal is to posses you.

Great idea.  I've often thought that this genre was underrepresented in RPGs.  Deliria was the best attempt, but it tried to cover too much ground.  A couple of thoughts:

You definitely need a system for combat, although it should be incorporated into the systems for all other kinds of conflict.  Combat shouldn't be too invasive, as many stories in this genre don't involve it (Alice in Wonderland, Labyrinth), but it should make combat a definite option since it's intrinsic to others (Peter Pan, The Neverending Story).

I don't see any need for limitations based on age.  It rings of Changeling-esque pretension, and unnecessarily limits what you could run with this game.  Neverwhere and The Rocky Horror Picture Show easily fall into this genre, and both of them have adult protagonists.

There should be provisions for non-human PCs.  Otherwise, most games that stuck to the source material would only have one player and a bunch of NPCs who got way too much screen time.

Might I recommend a randomless system?  It seems like solutions in these stories usually involve figuring out some sort of moral, metaphor or riddle, or thinking creatively, not simple tests of skill.  Come to think of it, I would drop numerical stats altogether.  Give each character two or three keywords about the problems they need to solve on this journey and a system for tracking their progress towards denouement.  That's just me, though, and it would be a big deviation from where you're currently taking the game.

Hi Aldoth,

I really like this. Stuff like Alice in Wonderland is just asking to become a roleplaying game.

I'm still not totally sure how the game would play: could you post a quick write-up of how you see play proceeding moment by moment? What the players say, what the GM says and so on? I'm interested to know how things like Talismans and Guides actually come up in play.

By the way, it strikes me that you don't exactly need Health Levels but something subtly different. In stories like Alice, the characters don't really seem to get injured. They're not in danger of death, but they're in danger of losing who they are (as you mentioned above). Perhaps, instead of losing health levels, the characters could lose pieces of Who They Are, or something?

Graham

Hi!
  I just want to throw my hat in with the no randomizer idea. I actually thought of it, but didn;t suggest it. Maybe use an effort system Like Marvel Universe?
  Something like there is a bolder in the path, and you could decide to use 5 dice of scrappy or 3 dice of clever or something else with a little imagination...

Graham wrote: By the way, it strikes me that you don't exactly need Health Levels but something subtly different. In stories like Alice, the characters don't really seem to get injured. They're not in danger of death, but they're in danger of losing who they are (as you mentioned above). Perhaps, instead of losing health levels, the characters could lose pieces of Who They Are, or something?

This part just leaps out at me, singing with beauty and terror. They want to possess you. (Shudder...). Because being a child is all about having no control over what you do, or where you go, or who you are -- about being, necessarily, a possession of others -- and growing up is a struggle for self-possession in the most literal sense of the world.

There should be provisions for non-human PCs.  Otherwise, most games that stuck to the source material would only have one player and a bunch of NPCs who got way too much screen time.

I don't see any need for limitations based on age.  It rings of Changeling-esque pretension, and unnecessarily limits what you could run with this game.  Neverwhere and The Rocky Horror Picture Show easily fall into this genre, and both of them have adult protagonists.

Deliria was the best attempt, but it tried to cover too much ground.

I just want to throw my hat in with the no randomizer idea. I actually thought of it, but didn't;t suggest it. Maybe use an effort system Like Marvel Universe?
  Something like there is a bolder in the path, and you could decide to use 5 dice of scrappy or 3 dice of clever or something else with a little imagination...

I'm still not totally sure how the game would play: could you post a quick write-up of how you see play proceeding moment by moment? What the players say, what the GM says and so on? I'm interested to know how things like Talismans and Guides actually come up in play.

Aldoth wrote:

Deliria was the best attempt, but it tried to cover too much ground.

While I have not read this. I want to have the core concept strong. If it holds up then I can expand it.

Have changeling the dreaming.

Where do I find the other books.

The one thing that I want to avoid is the trap of when you read books that fall into the genre you get tied into the constraints of the genre.

The point of this is that I don't want this to be a fairy game. I mean I love Fae and midsummer night's dream is my favorite plays. Also early books of magic and Sandman. But this is more about the rules of the stories that I have mentioned. If I wanted to write a faerie book I would look at the Fae's affect on the real world more.

I want this a bit broader. I want it to be more about the players creating the rules of the world (this includes the GM) instead of the world being a version of these characters that work in a certain way.

IE this is a sluagh it does this and acts this way. And then have people ask me where Puck is or why I ha vent included him in the game. Or a more obscure character that I don't know.

I want this to be a bit broader than that.

Partly because there are so many other cultures that have you can then draw on and things that you can do if you aren't just dealing with the faerie.

Hindu

Muslim

Aboriginal

Then again I could be going about this in the wrong way.

I will definitely think about it and faerie will absolutely have a place in this game.

Thanks Sluagh

I understand.  I was mainly just tossing around my fandom.  The only ones that seem truly necessary are Grimm and Deliria.  Exalted: the Fair Folk might also be good, if only for its portrayal of inscrutable faerie tale logic.

I understand.  I was mainly just tossing around my fandom.

Aldoth wrote: That is cool and I needed someone to bring up the comparison so that I  am able to answer the question you raised. What makes this different form those products. I need to be aware of what those games brings to the table and what do I bring that is different.

What I want more than anything is that you can use the game to express those fairy tales with the Fae but also go to different places. Oz, wonderland, labyrinth, Neverending Story I feel a game needs to fly those flags more than other games that are out at the moment.

Aldoth wrote: The random mechanic will look a bit like this:

Mr. wrote: The only games I can think of which are even in ballpark of what you're doing are Deliria and Little Fears (look it up on Amazon or RPG.net.  I'm in a hurry).  You'll want to take a look at both of them, but you're not in danger of infringing on either.

Thanks for the info. From looking at Grimm it doesn't really work in the same way the players have less input to the story and that is something that I wanted to have for my game.

I think that the next step for me is to start writing up the first draft of the rules. Does any one have any questions or contributions on the random/non random mechanic?

I really like this concept, and as others have said, you seem to have started off with a pretty good core. Personally, I think you should focus more on the 'human kids lost in a fantasy world' aspect rather than the standard Fae-folk stuff, and your initial draft looks good to me.

I think that you should use randomisers. d6s are fine and I like the simple roll-and-add mechanic. Fancy dice systems don't attract me unless they do something very different with it (like Dogs in the Vineyard). Also, I don't think that you need a specific combat system - it's rare to have full on tactical combat (enacted by the human kids) in the source material (Narnia, Pan, etc.) and I think adding combat rules will drag the game in the wrong direction.

That being said, I hate unopposed rolls. It's my opinion, but I think it will be more dramatic if all rolls are opposed - fights, arguments, climbing trees, everything. The opposition doesn't have to be physically present - in Narnia, I dare say that you could use the White Witch as an opponent even though they may not be present in person in the scene. And if you can't see any obvious opposition, then why not just let the player do it? (OK, this is Vincent's "Say Yes or Roll Dice" restated, but it's done a world of good for my games).

So, if I may suggest:

Roll 1d6 + Stat. Roll another 1d6 and add it on if you decided to use one of your unused traits (such as 'Angry') and the group thinks it's applicable; if you do this, mark that trait as used. If my opponent has any used traits that you think you could take advantage of (such as 'Proud'), then roll another 1d6 and add it on to your total and let your opponent mark it as unused.

I - as your opponent - does the same to generate my total. They can use their own Traits and take advantage of your unused Traits in a similar way.

You - as the PC - can spend your Imagination points to boost your total, if you think you have to.

Whoever wins can then inflict 'damage' on the loser. As Health is going - an idea I agree with, incidentally - you would lose some of your Self points (Memory, Heart, Innocence or Joy). 

This is all unplaytested, off-the-top-of-my-head ideas, but I hope it is of some help.

Looking forward to seeing this game,

Warren

So that would be the second land as the opponant. I think that if this is the case i need to beef up SLEF maybe you loose one from one of the stats at the end of the chapter instead of the one form each stat otherwise you will loose your character to the land really quickly.

Should I have 2 mechanics in the game.

One for random mechanics and one for those that they want to use non random mechanic.

OK I just thought that the characters can risk SELF to do actions of great dramatic significance if they do this it is an opposed roll and the land can roll or the baron can roll depending what the roll was effecting.

So you burn traits to add success to a roll.

I think that I will go with a random mechanic.

I will start writing the first draft tomorrow of the rules.

Oh, don't take my suggestion as the be-all and end-all! Personally, I would not support diceless system - but again, that's just me. You should go with what feels 'right' to you, and not be a slave to popular opinion and try to be "all things to all men." If that means going diceless, then so be it!

But I think that good dice systems can help. Having full-on conflict between the characters and the world (but not between the players) is good to keep everyone engaged. And I've found that people don't push as hard in diceless systems, as the risk of "Hey, you are always picking on me", and as such the conflict ending up to be between players instead, seems to high - hence it's tempting to softball it. With a diced system, you can just look to the dice and think "Hey - that's the way things go" and I think that allows people can push the conflicts that much harder, and IMHO, that provides better play.

Vincent Baker has put all of this much clearer than I could ever hope to. Look to the bottom article (Resolution, Why?) on Vincent's Roleplaying Theory, Hardcore page. The rest of the page is worth reading too, if you haven't already.

Warren

Hi Aldoth,

As a game recommendation: you definitely, definitely ought to read <a href="http://www.anvilwerks.com/?The-Shadow-of-Yesterday">The Shadow of Yesterday. Firstly, it does a lot of things you're talking about: for example, letting the players design the world rather than the GM; and handling "opposed" and "unopposed" rolls. And it's set in a sort of ethereal fantasy setting.

Secondly, there's a lot of theory talked about on this site, and Shadow of Yesterday explains it really well.

Thanks for posting the example of play. Just to point out: you've put lots of power in the hands of the GM. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there's other ways to do it. For example, when the GM says:

Aldoth wrote:
GM - OK you have forgotten the third grade and the taste of ice cream.

Aldoth wrote:
Player 2 - This looks like it could help.

Player 1 - I don't know that harp I grabbed in the golden forrest put us all to sleep and cost me three SELF points.

Agreed. For a game about dream-like experiences especially, it's very dangerous to give the GM authority to threaten or take away important things without the player having any recourse -- I'd find it really frustrating to have the GM say, "you play the harp? Well, it puts you to sleep" or "You want to get out? Well, the door locks behind you." The player should know what they're risking, at least in general terms (as in "I give up 2 Memory," "Okay, you lose 3rd grade and the taste of ice cream") and have power to affect the outcome.

You really need to check out some games that do this "stakes-setting" very clearly, because traditional RPGs are terrible at it, and often outright encourage the GM to spring nasty surprises on the players without giving them any power to affect the situation. I personally would suggest

1) Ron Edwards's Trollbabe
2) Vincent Baker's Dogs in the Vineyard
3) Tony Lower-Basch's Capes, of which a free demo version is available at Tony's site.

I'd also suggest checking out the free online version of Legends of Alyria to see a nontraditional approach to a dream-like world.

Just a random idea; have you considered defining characters according to their failings rather than their virtues?  Bastian Balthazar Bux is interesting because of his cowardice and later, his hubris, not the sentiment that helps him overcome them.  In MirrorMask, Helena's defining trait is her submissiveness, not the courage that eventually helps her triumph.  Dorothy's naïvete moves the story along, not the savvy she develops in the end.  Just a thought.

Im looking at the characters in a posative light. Bastion overcomes those traits to be sucessful as does Helana they get lost but then there beacon and remembering it helps them escape. sometimes with the help of there guide.

Having negative traits the define you instead of your vurtues is problematic and you starts a slippery slope for the characters.

I feel like I should give you a thank you credit Sluagh :)

Aldoth wrote:
Im looking at the characters in a posative light. Bastion overcomes those traits to be sucessful as does Helana they get lost but then there beacon and remembering it helps them escape. sometimes with the help of there guide.

Aldoth wrote: Having negative traits the define you instead of your vurtues is problematic and you starts a slippery slope for the characters.

Aldoth wrote: I feel like I should give you a thank you credit Sluagh :)