Well, I am now at the point where the setting is devised enough that I can start conceptualizing the "classes" of characters in the game. Now, as those keeping up with Realm posts know, this is NOT a D&D clone. As such I want to avoid such generalizations between play types as possible.

So what is the goal? As we know, characters take the role of 3 different character types (those well versed in my posts, you can perhaps skip to below where it says "The Quandary")

The Heroic Mortal: Joe not-so-average. Rising above the common man to become legends and shape the living, breathing world around them. They influence mortals with their heroic deeds and presence. Some might gain huge armies of followers yet remain the Reluctant Hero (think Richard Rahl from Terry Goodkinds' Sword of Truth series), while others become involved in interpersonal matters and nation-building, etc.
     Heroic Mortals don't have super powers. They are just well above average as compared to their kin. Instead, Fate is on their side, and they get a generally higher access to Skills compared to the other two character types.

The Spark: Everyone is born with magic in their veins, but Sparks have a lot more of it. They are gifted with control over a single aspect of magic. Human Torch, Iceman, etc...that kinda thing. If it is in their particular discipline, they can pull it off. However, magic is linked to their personalities and emotions. The state of spells they cast is heavily affected by their current emotional state. Rage would produce far more damaging attack magic, but would be counter-productive on a healing spell (for instance).
     Sparks constantly struggle to control their emotions, and not fly off the handle. They are able to use their personal "mana" (Ki in my world) to affect their mental state. However, failure to maintain focus on this act can actually cause a total break and pitch them into a temporary state of complete emotional catatonia. In this state they cannot control their magic, and it can be cast without their desire to do so!
    Sparks spend most of their XP on advancing their magical abilities, and as such will not be nearly as "skilled" as an ordinary mortal.  Sparks are touted as "special" people, and often placed in high positions of authority. They seek power, first and foremost, and can become slaves to their own emotions. Selfishness tends to be most productive for them, since it is the best way to maintain their emotional states. As such, while viewed as enlightened, many people fear or distrust them.

Dreamers: The meat and potatoes. All the cool kids are doing it! Dreamers tap into the Fabric (dream realm) and the Bane (nightmare realm) to form their powers. There are 12 different "Strata" of power, of which they can advance as they see fit (to a degree, but i wont get into that since its not the topic of the post) t produce virtually anything they can imagine. Want an extra arm? Done. Want to make a mountain that looks like Richard Simmons? Cool.
     The downside? Simple. Dreamers essentially must remain unknown. They have astronomical power, but to use it is a constant threat to their own existence. The more that see them use their power, the more it can affect them. If they fall too far to evil, the horrible Chimera will devour them or turn them into mindless slaves. Too much positive and they are reclaimed by the infinite power of the Fabric. They must fight back the Chimera, face to face, for the good of the world. And chances are, no one will ever know who saved the day... (far more detail regarding this in previous posts, best to read them for more details)

The Quandary:
So, now, I finally get to the question. I am at an impass for character creation and was looking for advice. I will give you a run-down on how it works in it's current form. What I am looking for are ideas here, on how to formulate potential "careers" for individual characters, but still maintain a very flexible (think White Wolf, Burning Wheel, etc) "point buy" system.

Currently it works as such:

All players sit at the table. They will be creating their characters together (optional, but ideal). The process is done in steps, starting clockwise. Each step is referred to as an "Annal", and takes several years from a characters life.

Each player, in this first and very critical Annal, does the following (generally we assume Annal 1 starts at approximate "young adult" age)

1. Conceptualizes what their character is. They must answer a few questions in this phase:
    -Where was I born? What is my homeland?
    -What was my childhood like? What sort of things did I do?
    -What species am I a member of (race selection)

2. Expresses their ideas regarding the character to the other players. Together they fill in potentially missing details.
3. Fills in traits, attributes, skills for this annal.

Then we go on to the next phase. The players again go clockwise, providing feedback as the story of a characters life is laid out up to the current day. Each Annal allows a character to spend a set amount of points on whatever they choose to increase on a character (there are limits, such as X amount of attributes , X amount of skills, etc , per phase).  Each annal absolutely REQUIRES at least 1 Facet selection. Facets in my game are "plot elements" that can be used during play or serve a purely symbolic purpose. These are a whole different topic, so I wont go into them much.
     In short, however, they can modify specific rolls by minute amounts and only in very specific circumstances. Jimmy might have a facet  "Nemesis" or "Really Hates Broccoli" as facets. One would provide a bonus/penalty only against said nemesis or when confronting the nefarious vegetable known as broccoli.

Other character traits are:

Attributes - Body, Mind, Self, Spirit, and 4 resistance attributes (Integrity, Will, Mettle and Essence)

Skills - Actual skills of the character. Can be whatever someone picks (no skill lists! Thus a player would write "Swordsmanship", or could be more specific "Swords: Longsword" or "One Handed Blades" etc). Their choice, since its their character. For instance, in real life I could say I have a skill of Computers 5....however, I have very specific knowledge of computers. Thus, I decide instead to use "Computers: Web Design and Graphics" 5.

Aptitudes -These are tied to attributes. They represent individual strengths in the very broad attributes (ie:Strongman, Acrobatic)

Virtues- The moral compass of the character. Directly relates to characters Sway. Defines their Sway at game start , as well.

Emotional Triggers Defines emotional triggers for magic, especially important for Sparks.

Spark (Sparks Only) - Select a specific magical power area (Heal, Fire, Water, Earth, Animal, etc)

Dream Strata (Dreamers Only) - Defines Dreamers area of power, and determines what strata they can not attain, as well.

Their Gear - The stuff they use and wear. Does this really need elaboration?

So my question is this...knowing what I have divulged here, what can you see as inherent issues? The goal, overall , is this:

-Players custom craft their characters, bit by bit. They can do this blind, or with the help of Profession Facets.

-Players design characters together, phase by phase. This allows them to interact without the usual "consult the book for endless amounts of data and extending character creation to HOURS of work..." part as well as encourages them to help one another to build the coolest characters. This is sort of a "round robin" concept, and is meant to be fun, not a headache.

-Players start the game with potential plot hooks and tie ins (facets), which can be utilized by the GM at his leisure. They wont always be used (perhaps not even remotely often), but they are there and ready should the need arise and it fits with the storyline.

-Players end character creation with the questions about characters that often go unexplored,  answered. We know his homeland, and the events of his life leading up to the present. The player thinks it up as they go along, rather than as an afterthought. (oh...how did he learn to..er...knit? His grandma...yea....that's it....)

-Players don't feel trapped into a "genre" of play. A warrior can still learn to survive in the woods just as well as a woodsman. A woodsman can become a grandmaster swordsman and be the complete equal of the warrior if he desires to do so. Yet, their profession still makes them unique in certain ways from the others in the play group.

The issue that plagues me?

What serves the "feel" of Realm more? A semi-rigid concept using Templates...or a totally freeform style? I personally love freeform but the issue it creates in the "feel" of the story is a concern. I want players to be able to take the role of people in the various "cool groups" in my world like the Mistresses of Whirling Blades or the Apokra of Ryche, without telling them they must select Great Cleave, Favored Enemy: Broomsticks and Cultivate Bacteria: Staphylococcus(sp?)  as starting skills, etc.

Approach replies however you wish. Theoretical, analytical, etc. But look at it from a players perspective, and NOT a game designers, if possible. Let's see whats in your heads!

(sorry if anything here is mis-typed...sending from work. This post took me 2 bluddy hours to compose in between idiot customer calls....sorry if it rambles or loses focus)

Chris,

I really like the Emotional Triggers and Facets.  They can provide a lot of motivation and interesting story situations.

Currently all archetypes besides the Mortal Heroes get a cool special power.  The Dreamers get their Dream Strata, the Sparks get their Spark.  As written now, Mortal Heroes get none.  However, in the old Character Archetypes thread we discussed Mortal Heroes being empowered by those they inspired.  This strikes me as a cool special power.  I would like to see a mechanic to reflect this.  Perhaps a list of "relationships" (people inspired) with either stats corresponding to the amount that they were inspired and/or the way in which they were inspired.  These "relationships" could be used to enhance rolls in different amounts and/or under different situations.  (The specifics of this mechanic deserves its own thread so I won't go into to much detail.)

Your Attributes currently have a lot of complexity compared to the rest of character creation.  They have the Attribute itself, the corresponding Resistance and the linked Aptitudes.  And on top of this your have the Skill system.  This is a lot for basic task-resolution in a game that tries to focus on grand heroics.  Especially one where only one of the three archetypes will be using this system heavily.

I strongly urge your to merge your Attributes/Resistance/Aptitudes/Skill system into some kind of Aspects system.  Something where you can have Strong as an Ox (5), Big Ol' Axes (3), Iron Will (7).  When lifting a big rock you would use Strong as an Ox.  When hitting something with an axe you would use Big Ol' Axes.  If you needed to resist interrogation you would use Iron Will.  If they didn't have an any appropriate attribute they could roll as if they had <aspect> (1).

If you still feel that your Attribute system needs to be separate from your skill system, then at least consider merging Attributes with their linked Aptitudes and Resistances.  These extra stats add unneeded complexity to your game without adding any real value.  Example:  Connan is very strong.  He doesn't need "Aptitude:  Former slave who turned the big grain wheel all by himself" to make him stronger.  These elements should be saved for cool and interesting Facets.  As for Resistances, since they are each linked to an Attribute I see no reason not to roll against that attribute for resistances.

You don't need templates to make your game heroic.  A true hero is a unique individual with their own strengths, weaknesses and struggles.  In truly heroic stories the hero is not defined by some "cool group" to which they belong.  Templating them will make your game much less heroic.  Keep it free form.

Best,
       Bill

Interesting points on the "Aspects" you mentioned.

I think I finally grasp what you meant by the Skills and Attributes being so deeply separated now :)

I think you may be onto something here...and in truth I have been toying with the way I had that set up (the aptitudes, primarily).

Using Aspects is an interesting idea, and it does simplify things quite a bit. It would also make designing a character in Annals easier as well. Something they mention in character creation that could have importance? Take it as an aspect. It also makes things a teency bit less of a headache to players when designing characters since now they only need worry about descriptors instead of naming things specifically to their needs.

"Bookworm" would be enough to state he can read a lot of books, and he can do it well. Rather than having "Study" and "Lore: History" or whatnot as two separate things (an Aptitude and a Skill, as it were).

Furthermore, it unclutters the character sheet more, which is always welcome. Inundating the player with a veritable encyclopedia of information icould get to be annoying. Especially since the Action Points mechanism will require bookkeeping (for which I recommend beads vs paper, btw!)

As for the Mortal Hero thing with powers...yes...they WILL have powers. I havent yet solidified what they will be yet or how they will interact with the Sway and Virtues of the character in question. Also, mortal heros still have access to "simple" magic gifts (since everyone has some sort of magic no matter how minor and mundane). Furthermore, they get access to 5 extra Fate points, which can "buy" additional dice rolls and change events in critical moments (but these points dont regen save for extremely risky actions or 1 per session).

And yes, Facets are a very important part of the game. The Emotional Triggers, morso for the Sparks. The other characters have them too, but they dont do nearly as much in the grand scheme of things by contrast. And mundane characters cannot use their Ki to change their emotional state at will. I don't want it to fit in as a generic core mechanic, more one that can be optional should a GM choose to include it. I likely will test it in playtesting and this could alter the outcome of this decision quite heavily.

I am just assuming, Bill, that you will have interest in play testing? I hope beyond hope to have something playable ready by february or so (time constraints and Real Life issues of course takign ultimate precedence)

Hi!
  An approach I use that helps with emersion and makes fun and interesting characters is to have the character generated by their life path/character background. So that where/how threy grew up, how they got trained, when they started on  the path of their archetype, what organizations they joined and what their personality was like back then influences their skill choices and other facets of their character.
  The demo I have does not have this yet (will be up soon), but you can get a cyberpunk version at
http://www.mvlan.net/~davidm/NuYork2020Skills.DOC
  I think something like this might help since your world is so unique.

er...that is basically what I stated in the post , didnever :) An altered version, but its still the same concept :)

The character "classes" as they currently stand have one problem that I see; you seem to have two classes of "magic users" and all non-magic-users lumped into one category.  This will require clarification on two fronts; 1) that Heroic Mortals can be heroic in realms other than physical combat (i.e. the Prince of Thieves or the Loremaster), and 2) that Sparks and Dreamers practice very different kinds of magic -- the distinction between the two is far greater than that between the Sorcerer and the Wizard in D&D.  It might help if you emphasize that Sparks depend on emotion for their magic while dreamers depend on their intellect and imagination.

That, and Dreamers dont use magic. At least not as is "traditional" in terms of fantasy. They dont cast fireballs or summon demons. They dont work on predefined concepts or things that are grounded in the "real world". Dreamers make things out of nothing.

Eg: Darlosh, the Cyrue dreamer is skilled in the Strata of Form , and Force. Using these two powers, he could , in theory, create a sword out of thin air, crackling with the power of lightning. And he could make it as permanent as he desired. Whereas a mage would need to take an existing sword and enchant it, or summon one that is purely magick and woudl last only a short while.

A more extreme example...same character. Say, years later, he has mastered Form and Force, and now has a high rank in Life. He could create a new lifeform out of nothing, forged from raw materials and energy. It would be "alive" for all intents and purposes, even if it was composed entirely of anti-matter. Or, he could use his mastery over Form to shape a new mountain on the landscape, teeming with a forest and various creatures (of course something of THIS magnitude would require immense power and also have GREAT risk attached in regard to his Sway. He messed up that roll, and he likely would be quite swiftly devoured or killed by a Chimera or absorbed back into the Dream world. Either way, dead.

Downside here is that, despite all this power, the more Sway you gain at either end, the more unpredictable the opposite end of your power becomes. With low sway, your "positive" effects take on twisted and unusual aspects. Too much positive and your "negative" power use ends up far more positive than intended. This is due to the mental effects at either end.

Mages have control over only a SINGLE aspect. They cannot, for instance, cast Ice Trap AND Fireball. Either they have power over ice, or fire. Not both. Ever. He can do anything in his particular area, but is unable to even dabble in other areas. The EXCEPTION to this rule is through the use of symbiotes. They can grant a mage greater access...but in return they happily digest parts of his spirit, body or mind.

Their emotions change the properties of their magick. All spells CAN be cast under differnt emotions. The effects can just vary greatly on circumstance. For all intents and purposes, Sparks could be counted as "Mortal Hero +1", but rather than spend their hard earned XP on attributes, aspects and Heroic Gifts, they end up dumping most of their points into magic. As a result their skills will never quite be as good as a mortal hero.

Heroic Mortals can be heroic in many more ways than combat. They are the chosen of Fate, and it is their job to change the world. How they do it is their own decision. Some will be great warriors. Others will be sages, wanderers, survivalists, preachers, farmers...whatever the player desires.

Sparks could be counted as "Mortal Hero +1", but rather than spend their hard earned XP on attributes, aspects and Heroic Gifts, they end up dumping most of their points into magic. As a result their skills will never quite be as good as a mortal hero.

sadly, im in toronto. So that eliminates that posibility :( But youll def see a rough draft. Everyone at the forge will !

Interesting views on things...hadn't seen it from that light, but it seems to be leaning in that direction anyhow. I am now at the decision to give mortal heroes their own special powers called Heroic Gifts (tentative, as i dont like the name) . They select one at character creation. Instead of being "leveled up", liek magick or dreamer power, however, the power of their ability is linked directly to their sway OR to one of their virtues. I have yet to determine which sort of powers will tie into which article though.

I see it as a "cool powers" thing for heroes...except that usually it wont be things that could be considered "magic"....abilities for them would be helping defy the odds, inspiring the masses, increasing morale in followers, etc. As such, theirs will also be the only abilities which are culled into a written list in the book. I think it would help to clarify things since so much more is open ended. Plus this way I can insure balance for cost-to-effect ratio. High and low sways will prove to be very powerful.

One thing to note though...to use the powers I am thinking they will still need to use their reserves of Ki. But since they wont have much to start with, it will be a minimal cost. Now I just need to determine what disadvantages besides the blatantly obvious would apply at far good and far evil extremes. Or, because they lack Supreme Cosmic Power, perhaps they dont need the same "negatives" the other two character types do.

This definitely puts them into the "Spark -1" category.

and as for choosing a Spark and then focusing heavily on skills...sure, thats an option. Part of the diversity of the system. But why would you do that, now, if you should have just went with a Minor Spark gift for a simple magic ability, and then took Mortal Hero, and got your free Heroic Gift in the process? Magic, or Mundane?  I like to foster choice :)