This game idea stems from the thread: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=18127.0

A synopsis of where I am now:
Maw of Hell is set in the heat of an intergalactic war.
The struggling empires have all deemed this particular jungle planet a "strategic necessity"
The planet is a hellhole, and as such none of the empires want to risk their good soldiers.
Instead, they send in slave troops, penal legions, hired mercenaries, etc.
Essentially every soldier is there for one reason: Earn their ticket to leave again.
Each player takes on a squad in this jungle war.

Each player has two decks of custom cards they play with. These cards essentially represent their character sheets.
The first deck is resources: troopers, equipment, weapons.
The second deck is growth: traits, friendships.

Your empire grants you resources based upon your battlefield success. Succeeding lets you draw more resource cards.
However, growths are something built up from within the group - they are awarded differently (not sure how yet).

So, what I've been working on now:
After figuring out the jyst of how the cards worked (in terms of decks, drawing, etc) I decided to focus on how the characters worked. I needed to figure out how they were statistically represented.

I started with six "attribute ideas". Not sure exactly what I wanted for each of them, I just thesaurus-brainstormed different terms to capture what I was saying.

Aggressiveness (combat instinct, rage, fierce, vicious)
Adaptability (ingenuity, ability, understanding, tech smarts)
Skill (proficiency, gunmanship, accuracy, weaponry, effectiveness, shooting)
Mentality (stubbornness, morale, determination, focus, attitude, resolute)
Survival (endurance, stamina, constitution, perseverance)

Removal (freedom, pardon, absolve, release, parole, discharge)

I decided that the adaptability and skill attributes were close enough to meld together, for the purpose of this game.
As far as Maw of Hell goes, they're both about picking up a gun and being able to shoot it well.

So, I'm tentatively sitting with these 4 main stats:
Viciousness, proficiency, endurance, resolve.

Questions: Is there anything seriously missing from this attribute list?
Are there better terms for these four? (specifically proficiency seems out of place)

And then the "removal" mechanic is titled Release.
Follow the link at the top of the post to learn more about it.

Thanks in advance for feedback, guys.

joepub wrote:

Questions: Is there anything seriously missing from this attribute list?
Are there better terms for these four? (specifically proficiency seems out of place)

And then the "removal" mechanic is titled Release.
Follow the link at the top of the post to learn more about it.

Thanks in advance for feedback, guys.

I would ask yourself what is most important in the game.
...
In this case I would say that would be soldiering ( the actual business of being a soldier, shooting etc.) and Respect, from your fellow men.

like the idea of deck as character, something I have played with myself for a while, but I am unclear as how it is being used here. You mention trooper cards in the text, does the deck represent a squad? Or are individual characters memebrs of a larger squad.

Hi!
  Here's my 2 cents:
  I think you should use:
Aggression or Assault - Used for fighting skills
Precision or Proficientcy - Used for stealth, medicine or other skill-based ability
Survival or Endurance - Mental and physical toughness, as well as getting food and water in the jungle
Rank or Charisma - Interpersonal skill.
  I think that that captures both the needs of the soldier and the feel of the military. No change please. Seems like a good, gritty idea, good luck!

I think you should use:
Aggression or Assault - Used for fighting skills
Precision or Proficientcy - Used for stealth, medicine or other skill-based ability
Survival or Endurance - Mental and physical toughness, as well as getting food and water in the jungle
Rank or Charisma - Interpersonal skill.
  I think that that captures both the needs of the soldier and the feel of the military.

Release is a fifth "stat". It represents how much time a soldier has to pay on the battlefield before earning their pardon, parole, freedom, or paycheque.

Missions earn troopers status points. These are notches in their gun, and check marks on the official documentation of field duty. Each point gives the troops +1 morale bonus.

However, after their total Release number has been reached, they are granted freedom, and shipped off the planet."

I forgot one thing in the last post:

Tentative Attribute List:

Viciousness (this one is locked)
Soldier
Stealth (possibility...)
Endurance
Resolve

Release (locked)

I want to keep endurance (physical) and endurance (mental) seperate.
They are BOTH important to the game, above all else.

And - there's no need to get food or water in the jungle, dindenver. This is a squad, with a base camp.

I was thinking... what about a stat called tactics? What does everybody think of that one? Ultimately you want something to represent how good they are at maneuvering, not just the physical skill, but the mental skill of knowing which ones to do, to confuse the enemy or to trap them or whatever. It could be done in a way that doesn't get in the way of roleplaying.

All the other ones are good, and steath could be part of tactics. It might be a leadership type skill or it might not be, depending on how joe wants it to work, but it's just an idea. What does everyone else think of this?

Ultimately you want something to represent how good they are at maneuvering, not just the physical skill, but the mental skill of knowing which ones to do, to confuse the enemy or to trap them or whatever. It could be done in a way that doesn't get in the way of roleplaying.

All the other ones are good, and steath could be part of tactics.

Hi!
  I was just going to suggest using a less specific term to incorporate stealth.
  I guess the next question is what will the characters be doing? I can easily make argument for or against seperating Mental and physical toughness. The question is, if there are only 4 stats, do you expect that approximately 50% of all of the characters actions will be mental or physical toughness related, enough to need two seperate stats? For instance, if you combined Endurance and Resolve, you'd have room for some kind of economic stat and a role for a Radar O'Reily type character to make money off of selling dead soldiers supplies or something...
  Just a thought, you definitely have the groundwork for a fun game.

I can easily make argument for or against seperating Mental and physical toughness. The question is, if there are only 4 stats, do you expect that approximately 50% of all of the characters actions will be mental or physical toughness related, enough to need two seperate stats?

I guess the next question is what will the characters be doing?

you'd have room for some kind of economic stat and a role for a Radar O'Reily type character to make money off of selling dead soldiers supplies or something...

Hi!
  It's not a bad idea. I only thought economics might become more prevelant because at one point you had mentioned buying your way off of the planet.
  As to the feeling of sacrificing one thing to gain another, maybe that what viciousness should be doing? Maybe characters can volunteer to take on viciousness in order to get a bonus in firefights or other situations that call for it. Or Viciousness can be turned on it's head and called humanity or self-control and you cna spend it like luck or fate. And the value of it effects npc reactions or something more specifically that this gauge is supposed to represent being sacrificed.
  I thought the totem post ws newer, didn;t mean to confuse the situation, sorry.

I only thought economics might become more prevelant because at one point you had mentioned buying your way off of the planet.

Or Viciousness can be turned on it's head and called humanity or self-control and you cna spend it like luck or fate.

As to the feeling of sacrificing one thing to gain another, maybe that what viciousness should be doing?

Hi!
  The idea I had was to call it humanity instead of viciousness. And when you lose it you turn vicious.
  Basically, you start out with a decent score in it.
  You gain Humanity and lose Viciousness by doing positive interpersonal feats: Negotiating with others, making a friend or making a truce/alliance
  You lose Humanity and gain viciousness in combat.
  Something like, you spend viciousness for extra dice, enough dice to turn the impossible missions into possibility. You bid humanity to win a negotiation. If it is the same stat, you will get to a point where you can do one or the other, but not both. Then the character will have sacrificed something indeed.

The idea I had was to call it humanity instead of viciousness. And when you lose it you turn vicious.
  Basically, you start out with a decent score in it.
  You gain Humanity and lose Viciousness by doing positive interpersonal feats: Negotiating with others, making a friend or making a truce/alliance
  You lose Humanity and gain viciousness in combat.

Hi!
  I think you have to keep it as currency that the players must spend to overcome the harsh environment. So, based on that, what is the value of keeping it and what is the need to spend it?

Hi!
  I think you have to keep it as currency that the players must spend to overcome the harsh environment. So, based on that, what is the value of keeping it and what is the need to spend it?

Hi!
  You could be loking at Visciousness upside down. You want the Visciousness mechanic to represent something that your character sacrifices in order to become one with the jungle? What are they sacrificing? Call it that instead of Viciousness and have players spend that to get benefits in game...
  I don't know. Maybe I am not understanding what you are trying to do. But it seems like that is exactly what you are describing. As far as setting stat limits based on Visciousness, it doesn;t make sense to me, characters aren;t sacrificing anything and it seems more like a character advancement mechanism than a mentality simulation...
  Maybe it is the word Visciousness that is tripping you up. Or maybe I am just confused, lol
  Either way, I wouldn;t let Visciousness act like a threshhold, it needs to be more dynamic to capture that gradual descent into darkness you are going for I think...

Viciousness is killer instinct.
Some people have more of it, some have less.

Murdering innocents plays on Viciousness. Taking no prisoners requires viciousness.
Letting go of it all and aggressing requires Viciousness.

I'm not saying you can't be a good negotiator with it.

I'm confused as to why it can't be static.
Your resolve will strengthen and weaken throughout, but your Resolve stat stays the same.

I think that stats in this game represent your threshholds.

Your threshold for enduring, your threshold for mental resolve, your threshold for how "aggressive/vicious/killer/murderous/etc" you can get....

Do you see where I am coming from?
How do I incorporate what you're saying, but still have an attribute that players can test under?

and I'd like to stress that I'm not trying to be stubborn...

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from, make sure you know where I am coming from...
and looking for common ground.

dindenver wrote:
Hi!
  You could be loking at Visciousness upside down. You want the Visciousness mechanic to represent something that your character sacrifices in order to become one with the jungle? What are they sacrificing? Call it that instead of Viciousness and have players spend that to get benefits in game...
  I don't know. Maybe I am not understanding what you are trying to do. But it seems like that is exactly what you are describing. As far as setting stat limits based on Visciousness, it doesn;t make sense to me, characters aren;t sacrificing anything and it seems more like a character advancement mechanism than a mentality simulation...
  Maybe it is the word Visciousness that is tripping you up. Or maybe I am just confused, lol
  Either way, I wouldn;t let Visciousness act like a threshhold, it needs to be more dynamic to capture that gradual descent into darkness you are going for I think...

Hi!
  OK, I guess I am looking at it from a different perspective. I thought the intent was to put together a mechanic that changes to reflect how the Jungle changes you. You had said that the idea was that you had to lose some part of yourself to succeed on this planet. And you had said that Viciousness was locked, I assumed that meant that viciousness was the mechanic for that.
  lol, for all I know we are talking about 2 different things, lol
  Anyways, Viciousness taken as a stat should prolly help some things and harm others. Scare off friendlies but make you more badass in the jungle...
  Last I heard Viciousness and Release were based on your actions and not on character design, while Soldier, Tactics, Endurance & Resolve are a measure of who they are and what they are like. And those things may wax and wane, but the baseline is not going to change over time.
  Anyways, I think once you figure out what you have to spend to keep alive in the Jungle, you are golden! It's a really cool, idea!

Thank you for that, Starblade.
That more or less sums up what I was trying for.

Dindenver: Do you think that there could be elements of descent within a standard attribute?
I'm asking this in reference to more than just Viciousness.

For resolve: the "descent" you alluded to for Viciousness is paralleled by mental breakdown, etc, etc. It's a reverse process, but essentially we're talking about descending towards the negative, pulling back.... waging that internal war.

For endurance: likewise, endurance is a descent into fatigue, using adrenaline to pull back up, etc... waging that physical war.

You are obviously pushing to change viciousness because it shouldn't be static - if I read you correctly.
Should these?

Starblade: How do you think viciousness should be represented, in light of that? (should it be represented?)

Anyways, Viciousness taken as a stat should prolly help some things and harm others. Scare off friendlies but make you more badass in the jungle...

Last I heard Viciousness and Release were based on your actions and not on character design, while Soldier, Tactics, Endurance & Resolve are a measure of who they are and what they are like. And those things may wax and wane, but the baseline is not going to change over time.

  Anyways, I think once you figure out what you have to spend to keep alive in the Jungle, you are golden! It's a really cool, idea!

Hi!
  I thought of an easy mechanic:
  Viciousness is a threshhold for interpersonal skills. To perform certain interpersonal tasks, you have to have a certain level of Viciousness or better. If you have the right level, you roleplay the task.

I thought of an easy mechanic:
  Viciousness is a threshhold for interpersonal skills. To perform certain interpersonal tasks, you have to have a certain level of Viciousness or better. If you have the right level, you roleplay the task.

Hi!
  I thought at one point you were going to replace Stealth with Tactical, so it had broader uses?

Release

Viciousness

Soldier
Tactical
Endurance
Resolve