Hi there,

Zhang Zhung is a wuxia flavoured pulp-fantasy rpg – cinematic style is important to the narration of a characters actions. I am looking for a way in which narrative embellishment can be encouraged, by increasing the effectiveness of the action described. Yet I don’t want it to rely on it too heavily (like say wushu) to avoid narrative fatigue.

To quickly recap how it works: At the beginning of a conflict, a pool of Yin and Yang dice are rolled, derived from a relevant PC Stat which consists of: an aptitude score as well as a balance of Yin and Yang dice which not only determines the balance of the pool but also the style of the Stat. Conflicts are assigned a polarity (Yin or yang) by the GM and players, based on the scenes nature. Dice are rolled and moves are generated: Yin, Yang and Dual. Dice are used to narrate moves, and to avert such narrations by using the apposing polarities dice. If you have the dice and there is inadequate opposition (in the form of events or NPCs) it happens exactly as described. A slightly more detailed rules discussion is here: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=18263.0 if that makes no sense.

I want to introduce a dramatic bonus mechanism to encourage wuxia action. I also want to do this so the forgone conclusions of a bad roll  can be mitigated by good role-play, or even just -play. The dice should structure the conflict but shouldn't lead to determinism. I also want to avoid narrative fatigue and I want it to be cool. Not easy.

So I am going to throw out ideas, and would like them banged into shape - or maybe possibly suggestions if you have any.

The Action pool:

The Action pool is comprised if a limited number of Dual dice (2 per player), and is shared by the group. A die is drawn from the pool if the players move is cinematic, cool or creative. The die may be rolled and added to the current moves total or may be kept for later moves. However when the pool reaches 0 - more dice may be drawn from the pool into the negative. These ‘negative’ dice are special, apart from being rolled and added to moves – they are used to improve Stat’s as well as traits. i.e. Characters utilize Action dice for advancement. The pool is refreshed at the beginning of a session.

The Flat +1 or +2 bonus:

This would up the total of the move being narrated by 1, or 2 no rolling. A bit predictable, and in my experience players don't bother.

or

x2 the value of the move :- probably too powerful. Success then rests almost entirely on a stream of embellishment, exhausting.

Chad wrote: I want to introduce a dramatic bonus mechanism to encourage wuxia action. I also want to do this so the forgone conclusions of a bad roll  can be mitigated by good role-play, or even just -play. The dice should structure the conflict but shouldn't lead to determinism.

I also want to avoid narrative fatigue and I want it to be cool. Not easy.

Hi Shreyas,

Thanks for your response its made me think about it a bit more carefully. With a bad roll I mean, in terms this system - a roll that doesn't leave players with many options leading them to a set conclusion, and so doing discouraging them to continue with the conflict. As they are rolling to generate moves at the beginning of a conflict, so as to supply them with with fuel to deal the conflict and with fewer moves they are obviously disadvantaged - they can do less. I don't want them to feel "Oh I only have two Yang, whats the point" rather, they should be trying to think of a fun way kung fu their way out of it. I want to give them more options to play, despite a bad roll. The dice should really just be the fuel to help structure the conflict, ideally. Perhaps you could say I want to bias the system so they can use unwanted results to be more creative?

In terms of the stunt bonus it would be anything thematically appropriate and entertaining, the bonus is moderated by the player himself - if he thinks it was cool he picks up a dice (or whatever) I finds this motivates descriptive play more, as the players are ultimately their own judge.  So I think it would fit into your first category of "caring enough to describe the action engagingly" I suppose, although that sounds somewhat pejorative.

And yes, I have definitely experienced the fatigue thing playing Wushu. It wasn't sustainable, not for more than a few sessions anyway - not in my group. Despite that when I first discovered Wushu I thought "this is it!!" only to find my group was growing weary of it very quickly. I feel it holds the key for the kinds of rpg experience I really enjoy.

Chad wrote: Perhaps you could say I want to bias the system so they can use unwanted results to be more creative?

In terms of the stunt bonus it would be anything thematically appropriate and entertaining, the bonus is moderated by the player himself - if he thinks it was cool he picks up a dice (or whatever) I finds this motivates descriptive play more, as the players are ultimately their own judge.  So I think it would fit into your first category of "caring enough to describe the action engagingly" I suppose, although that sounds somewhat pejorative.

And yes, I have definitely experienced the fatigue thing playing Wushu. It wasn't sustainable, not for more than a few sessions anyway - not in my group. Despite that when I first discovered Wushu I thought "this is it!!" only to find my group was growing weary of it very quickly. I feel it holds the key for the kinds of rpg experience I really enjoy.

Perhaps you could say I want to bias the system so they can use unwanted results to be more creative?

In terms of the stunt bonus it would be anything thematically appropriate and entertaining, the bonus is moderated by the player himself - if he thinks it was cool he picks up a dice (or whatever) I finds this motivates descriptive play more, as the players are ultimately their own judge.

Maybe you can add in a mechanic that, say, lets you turn failed dice into temporary traits for that scene (which restores your mechanical competence), but the traits are expressed as disadvantages or complications, like "They Kidnapped My Girl 2" or "I Hate Clowns 1 (in response to a clown attack)". That way, the player gets a chance to express his coolness by adding something to the game that not only makes him more effective in that conflict, but also retains the "I rolled poorly on that initial test thingy" meaning.

Shreyas wrote:
Hm. How's this roll work?Maybe you can add in a mechanic that, say, lets you turn failed dice into temporary traits for that scene (which restores your mechanical competence), but the traits are expressed as disadvantages or complications, like "They Kidnapped My Girl 2" or "I Hate Clowns 1 (in response to a clown attack)". That way, the player gets a chance to express his coolness by adding something to the game that not only makes him more effective in that conflict, but also retains the "I rolled poorly on that initial test thingy" meaning.

joepub wrote:

So, Yin and Yang is very structured in terms of element balance - or at least element distribution.
This narrative bonus is intended to throw off that element balance.

Is that correct?

joepub wrote:
Envisioning that in my head, I really think that'd be cool. And because you only have so many "unwated results" you want to change, the fatigue is avoided in that the drama bonus can only be enacted X many times - because there are only X many unwanted die rolls.

At least, how I envision it.

joepub wrote:

I've never seen that type of self-moderation before, firsthand, so I want to ask a bit about it:
-Do the GM and other players have input on whether the drama bonus is given?
-Do players ever/usually abuse this power?

I would say yeah they do have input into the bonus, although in my group it didn't seem to come up. So similar to Wushu there should be a veto rule, I think.
They didn't abuse the power at all, but we have a fairly solid social contract and understanding of what is fun for the game, and we didn't play Wushu for more than a few sessions so it might not have had time to rear its head. So I don't think I should base my judgement about it solely on that.

Hi Joepub and Sheryas,

In my test its been a rather fluid thing where the players pick up dice as they describe, so it worked well. Having said that, they are trained and know how I work (Except for Laurence who every so often tries to jig the pig based on his mood - but we ignore him). I think some sense of agreement would be important, terms of the bonus dice, however that is managed by the social contract - do you think I should be specific about that arrangement in the rules text?

What I particularly like about your idea for using the discarded dice from the pool is that, it becomes quite hard to abuse it anyway as they can only milk dice up the maximum polarity dice which are being used to act out, which on average will be 2-3. I think the problem comes in with, how does the GM apply this rule. Only for big characters, or not at all? The PC's in The Way to Zhang Zhung are rather heroic so they should really get the spotlight. I wouldn't want the GM to have to be set up as overt opposition in terms of the Drama device. Perhaps he should have a set pool of extra dice he can roll to this end? maybe he has villain points that the players award him?

I have been toying with that idea, that players should award the GM stuff too. Or perhaps trade with him, you know dice for villain points, or plot twist, that kind of thing.

Shreyas suggestion for the additional complication trait (which i use for a conflict which comes up 0 Yin or 0 Yang) works really well. It makes the gaping whole in my design logic seem like a carefully thought out addition to the system!

What I am also considering at this point is whether that complication trait should award the GM dice too when it is used, or even, if  it should only award the GM dice when it comes into play. although it seems like a punishment mechanic and I really like that a bad roll could be an opportunity for growth.

Shreyas, did you invision the complication to offer an advantage in terms of dice as well as a disadvantage? Or purely as disadvantage?

Best,
Chad

Chad wrote: Shreyas, did you invision the complication to offer an advantage in terms of dice as well as a disadvantage? Or purely as disadvantage?