I've worked out a deal with a publisher where I get 40% of profits on all things sold in relation to my RPG system. I thought I had worked out something EXCELLENT for this industry, where must publishers will take only "work for hire" own all the rights, and that's it. Being about to license out a system without it being associated with a IP like Conan is almost unheard of, I thought. My co-author, however, is shocked with the low profits of the industry and has pointed out that our thousands of hours of work on the game will make us less than minimum wage, at least at first. I said, well yeah, that's the price we pay for trying to introduce a new game system, especially a fantasy game system! I told him we were lucky to find a publisher willing to pay us royalties in the first place, especially since they will be taking over all costs of marketing and selling.

Who agrees with me? Am I wrong? Am I about to screw myself unknowingly?

PLEASE help...I need somebody to tell me I'm not crazy...

Hi!
  When working with a publisher, I thought it was a balance between pay up front and %. From what I heard, from others, that is a good deal and I can guess you didn't get an advance. You're only ever going to get a share in the profit and considering the Publisher has to do marketing and inventory, etc. I don't think you are going to do better than the deal you have now without self-publishing.
  But I could be wrong, I have only spoken to a couple of people on this topic.

Yes, I did not ask for an advance on royalties. Too risky for the publisher with an unproven core product.

Hello,

Dindenver, please take a reading-role for this thread, and let people respond who have lots of experience with publishing RPGs.

Faolan, none of us here can actually tell you what to do. However, if you're interested, most of the publishers who frequent this site routinely take in, personally, after all distribution and postage costs, about 65-80% of their book's cover price, per copy. Considering that high-quality POD printing costs, these days, range from from 6% to 15% of the cover price, this level of profit is a pretty good deal.

For instance, my game Elfs costs the customer $15.00. It costs me $1 to print a copy of Elfs. Shipping is usually quite cheap, a buck or two depending where it's going. I happen to use a fulfilment house (Indie Press Revolution) to handle the invoicing and shipping, and they get their cut, which is small. I see well over $10, personally, pure profit, for every copy of Elfs sold. The specially-nice part is that I don't print very many copies at once, and when they get a bit low, I just order up some more. Elfs, like all my games, has continued to sell steadily long after it was first released. I made back my printing and other costs so long ago, that every copy sold today is a wonderful little money-blast.

Check out Lumpley Games' 2005 sales report, Bob Goat Games' 2005 sales report, Dog-Eared Design's 2005 sales report, and the Half Meme Press 2003-2005 sales reports (scroll down a little for these). Other such data are available from similar publishers, and you can check out various forums here at the Forge for the links.

These levels of pure-unit profit are unique to the publication model that was pioneered by me and refined by many others here at the Forge. They depend, however, on YOU becoming the publisher. You don't sign on with a publisher, you don't have a contract with a publisher, you don't have any deals with a publisher. YOU are the publisher.

Nothing is guaranteed - some people publishing using this model have lost money, but in comparison to the typical way to publish, not very much. It's much, much easier than most people think. It's potentially incredibly profitable compared to any other way to see your RPG available for sale, both on-line and in game stores. If you're interested in finding out how this is done, let us know. That's what this site is dedicated to helping people do.

Best,
Ron

I don't doubt your model works well. The problem is I have no time left on my hands to oversee the growth of my game. I would not want to handle freelancers, contracting artwork, paying people, or even less, writing all of the supplements myself. I want this game in the hands of a comitted publisher, one who will take over all risks of marketing, and more importantly, invest the time. I've worked on the game for about five years, and only recently farmed it out, but my co-author and I are in a place in our lives where we know if we tried to launch the game ourselves, it would almost certainly stagnate.

I have faith that the publisher I've found is the right choice given the limitations I listed above. However, my co-author was concerned that I wasn't asking for enough money from them. I told him I thought I got a good deal considering the industry. I also worked out that I'd get 10% of anything sold under the game system's brand.

Faolan, it sounds to me like you've developed a manuscript and the publisher is going to take it from there, doing some editing, layout, art direction, production, manufacture, marketing, and distribution?

From my perspective (I am an editor), 40% of profits for the manuscript to an art-heavy, production-intensive product, and especially from an unpublished author -- that's a pretty good deal.  More than we usually pay for manuscripts.

Most publishers are going to be a lot less efficient when it comes to per-unit profits, at least it indie-press terms, since they actually pay for edit/layout/production/management, and that takes a bite out of the end profits. However, depending on who the publisher is, how much market penetration they have, and how hard they plan to push the product, you may see some significant volume which independent publishing can't net you (they'll burn me at the stake, now).  Thing is, all of that is totally beyond your control.  This question unfortunately comes down to trust, and how much you trust them to do this well.

It also comes down to how much you trust them to deal fairly with you.  Research the publisher if you haven't already, because there are other reasons to buy a manuscript than immediate sale of the book.  You are at least signing over printing rights, perhaps limited printing rights.  Are you also signing over ownership rights to the text?  Are you signing over derivative rights for sourcebooks?  Are you signing over rights to the world/setting/what-have-you that might be used in some totally different product (like a CCG)?  If they do a single printing of the book and then let it fade into OOP, do you have any options to print it at any point in time later?

I doubt it's a possibility in the microscopic RPG "industry" but a pure-royalties contract means they have to actually print the book for you to see a return, leaving them perfectly free to "buy" the rights for no cost to them and then release a different product that would have been competing with it.  This, along with most of the above, is why this eventually boils down to trust.

All that said, that contract may be the best option for you right now.  I can certainly sympathize with "I can't market my own book right now" and handing it off to someone else may work best for where you are.  For what it's worth, I doubt you'll find a better deal elsewhere in the "industry" -- just make sure that you're doing business with a company that you can trust, and make sure you're not signing over more than you think you are.

Thanks for you input! I do trust them...and I keep the rights to my IP.

Hello,

Faolan, now that I understand your goals better, the thread has to end here. This forum cannot be used for discussions about work-for-hire, freelance, commissioned, or other work that is created by person A and published by person B.

Joshua BishopRoby's points are about as far as I'll let such a topic proceed here, but now it has to stop. I'm sure that he and many other people who are experienced with the publishing you're talking about will be happy to continue discussing it with you privately.

Best,
Ron

Ron wrote:
Hello,

Faolan, now that I understand your goals better, the thread has to end here. This forum cannot be used for discussions about work-for-hire, freelance, commissioned, or other work that is created by person A and published by person B.

Joshua BishopRoby's points are about as far as I'll let such a topic proceed here, but now it has to stop. I'm sure that he and many other people who are experienced with the publishing you're talking about will be happy to continue discussing it with you privately.

Best,
Ron

No real violation, and the discussion legimately went as far as it could. Glad to help as much as we could, and now, folks who want to can contact you.

Minor point: please don't apologize to me as moderator.

This thread's closed now, so let's no longer post to it.

Best,
Ron