Allright, heres a breakdown of the design decisions ive made in the last while. I think I am pretty firm on them for the most part.

First, I redid the Attributes. Before we had    Body, Mettle - Mind, Will - Self, Integrity - Spirit, Essence
However, I have changed them to better suit the mechanics overall and to make a more diverse set to be utilized in dice rolls. Now, we have:

Brawn, Mettle, Reaction - Physical
Intellect, Reason, Perception -  Mental
Charm, Source(Spirit), Will - Self

Sway/Virtue

    I have "streamlined" the Sway/Virtue concept somewhat. Before I had two rather annoying charts to worry about (Virtue as one, and Sway as another). Both
can change easily through play, when a character makes moral choices and whatnot....so I figured why not just combine them? So now, we have the following chart.

Virtue Name              Good                                                  Evil

Compassion              +6  +5  +4  +2  +1  0  -1  -2  -3  -4  -5
Courage                    +6  +5  +4  +2  +1  0  -1  -2  3  -4  -5
Humility                    +6  +5  +4  +2  +1  0  -1  -2  -3  -4  -5
Temperance              +6  +5  +4  +2  +1  0  -1  -2  -3  -4  -5

And now the breakdown.  Characters begin play completely balanced in all virtues (ie: in the middle). Whenever a character is placed in a situation where one of the
virtues is called into play, there is a chance their position in that Virtue will change. Specific types of actions provide a different potential for a change in the virtue, with those of greater import or danger providing the greatest benefit (or penalty).

Virtue/Sway actions
-------------------------------
GOOD
Deed intended as good - +1 to relevant virtue
Help those in need - Compassion +1
Stand ground for your beliefs or that you hold dear - Courage +1
Being humble despite accomplishments - Humility +1
Resist great temptation- Temperance +1

EVIL
Deed intended as cruel - +1 to related virtue
Harm an innocent - Compassion -1
Let go of your beliefs - Courage -1
Show pride and arrogance - Humility -1
Give in to desire - Temperance -1

    It's basic, but thats a breakdown. These modifiers can be "stacked", as it were, and provide potentially large shifts in "sway", as well as nullifying any change.

For instance:

Ken gives in to his sexual urges (-1 Temperance), and cheats on his invalid wife (-1 Compassion). He then listens to the devil on his shoulder, and kills the woman out of guilt (-1 courage). That means a potential of -3 (1 from each attribute).

Jack heals a sick woman, curing her of the plague (+2 compassion - 1 for good intent, 1 for the healing). He then heals many others, never asking for anything in
return, not even money (+1 Humility, +1 Temperance)  +4 total.

Now the way we "read" it on a character sheet....If I have Compassion at +1, Temperance at +1 and Courage at +1, but have Humility at -1  my total Sway is +2  (the negative value subtracts from the positive. Vice versa applies from the negative side).

When I make rolls to complete effects, powers, etc where Sway can affect it, the value of Sway can be used as a bonus modifier to effects that apply to the SAME spectrum (Good/Evil) for helpful acts and the OPPOSITE spectrum for damage, and other effects. Note that I can only use ONE of the sway values (whichever applies most to the action being performed). Thus, I cannot stack Compassion, Courage and Humility if all are at +4.

And how do we know if a player does in fact gain or lose their Virtue? Voila:

Relevant Virtue + Reason (attribute) or Will (attribute) + 2d6    versus Difficulty. This difficulty increases the further up the Sway scale you get on either side.
On a successful roll for virtue gain, we gain a point. On a successful roll for negative gain, we LOSE a point. Thus, sometimes a player will want to roll low instead of high if they are shooting for Dr.Evil instead of Joan of Arc.

What does Sway do?

Sway affects powers of both Heroic Mortals and Dreamers. Whenever they use their powers, Sway can affect the overall outcome. For instance, a dreamer with a high value in Compassion may be able to heal even the most grievous of wounds....whereas an evil dreamer with NO compassion is virtually unable to do so. His attempts at healing the target result in horrific mutations, agony or worse.

Dreamers go through unusual changes once they hit +4 on either end of the spectrum. Their outward appearance becomes physically changed, and moreso the higher(lower) they get.

Heroic Mortals gradually change with each level in Sway they attain. They may start as normal joes, but gradually as they fall to evil they find that plants begin to wilt in their presence...babies cry. Animals go crazy whenever they are near. People begin backing away because they just get a "wrong" vibe off of you....that sort of thing. Good people might aquire an almost "glowing" quality about them. Animals love them. They seem to promote health and happiness wherever they go.

Thoughts on this concept? Opinions on "smoothing" it out are welcome and desired.

Magick Changes

As mentioned before, everyone is born with magick in this gameworld. Most dont realise it. The vast majority never tap their potential, or that potential is so small that it could never do anything more than minor and seemingly normal accomplishment. (A basketweaver that NEVER messes up, a fortune teller that never makes an error, etc).

Every person has a natural connection to the mystic realm. Their Zodiak/Starsign determines what they are best suited to channel. There are 9 different magickal knowledge areas (Fire, Earth, Water, Air, Command, Arcane, Body, Prophecy, Animal).

Most magick is never seen. The only true "spells" that exist are in ancient tomes, most of which are long forgotten or destroyed from centuries of erosion. Thus, the majority of arcane secrets are forgotten and must be relearned over time....if they ever get learned at all. Most magick takes the form of common things or exceptional abilities. These take the form of Qualities. Qualities are Realms "special powers" and racial bonuses.

Qualities are, consequently, arranged into 9 groups. For instance "Ambidextrous" would be part of the "Body" magick area. Sixth Sense would be under Prophecy, and Animal Empathy under (obviously) Animal. These magick abilities are generally innate and "always on" unless otherwise specified (in which case they cost Ki to use)

Casting Magick

Casting magick is NOT subject to Sway/Virtue (aside from normal checks that must be made. Sway does NOT effect the outcome of a spell). Qualities , again because they are innate, are not "cast". Actual spells, learned and studied from lost tomes, can be cast. The casters emotional state determines the nature of the magick when it is cast.

Whenever a spell is cast, it uses up 1 Ki. If there is no Ki present (or the caster chooses not to use it), they instead take 1 Stun damage. If they accumulate their Mettle attribute rating in Stun damage they are exhausted and can cast no more. Each additional level of this damage also grants a cumulative -1 penalty to the attempt to cast.

Ki

Ki fuels Reality. It allows life to exist, and it flows eternally through everything. The Chimera are vampiric in this sense...their very presence on the world drains it of its Ki. Their corrupting nature turns this Ki into more energy for their own purposes (Bane). On the opposite end, the Incarna turn Ki into energy that feeds their own needs (Fabric). While the Incarna arent evil, they are akin to the Greek Gods. Ie: they may like their mortal toys, but they have issues far more important than a few measly mortal lives.

The players have the ability to affect the overall Ki of the world...and thus the shape of reality.

All characters have a "base" Ki, that is always theirs. It is (Source[attribute] + Will), and cannot be increase through any means other than the following:

Increasing the relevant attributes  +attribute ranks
Banishing a Chimera +1
Destroying a Chimera +2
Spreading Good Guy Stuff (hope, friendliness, belief, faith, etc) +1

Their Ki decreases under the following methods:
Critical Failure on a roll -1
Banishing an Incarna -1
Destroying an Incarna -2
Fanatical devotion to a cause -1

An increase or decrease should only happen in extreme circumstance if it is not related to the destruction of Incarna or Chimera. Their death releases the Ki they were converting into food for themselves back into Reality, instantly. The players are given a tiny, tiny fraction of it due to proximity and fate.

Allright...so thoughts on the changes...seems like a complicated writeup, but im trying to cover all bases in one post to avoid confusion.  Questions? Comments? ideas?

so much for one post.....little chage:

in the last section..killing Incarna should ADD ki, not remove it. Good spirit or not, they still eat Ki.

Oops and one more note:

Sway also does the following:

The more postive a character is:
Chimera have a greater chance to "surprise attack"
Incarna may appear to form a relationship with the character
Chimera may try to manipulate player (as a God or Saint)

The more negative a character is:
Incarna have a greater chance to "surprise attack"
Incarna may try to temp the character back to the side of Good (as a God or Saint)
Chimera will form relationships with the character

Chris,

I believe that you are jumping the gun a bit here.  Its been a while, so let me recap our last conversation.

I said...

You need to decide how you want your players to experience this game

I shall say Gamist. It provides the cinematic feel I want for battle, interpersonal struggle and personal advancement.

Your next step is to decide what resource(s) the players will be striving to acquire and what they must do to acquire it.

Agreed, for as it is, Sway isn't necessarily something to "strive" for. It just happens, and works out to their advantage AND disadvantage. Fate points are not common nor applicable for such a thing.

Ki would be that resource, as it allows them to use their powers in the first place. Without ample amounts of it, they are very limited in what they can dish out. Thus, they must conquer their foes (good or evil) and inspire and lead in order to gain said Ki.

Sway is a resource as well. Players can strive to aquire it, for it gives them bonuses against their opposition and provide a much needed upper hand against the Big Bad. Sway itself, as demonstrated above, can change often and rapidly. As such, it is a resource that will be difficult to maintain without significant amounts of roleplay. The further up the scale they get, the harder Sway is to attain. As a result they need to do greater and greater acts of good/evil to gain more power.

They might start off helpign old ladies cross the street, but at the upper echelons they might have to help a hundred women cross the street while being chased by a Chimera and fighting it off, all while bleeding to death slowly. An evil guy might start out scaring kids, but in the end will need to butcher them wholesale to become truly evil.

I am toying with allowing them to "spend" their sway to give a one-time bonus to a dice roll (+1d6) or something equivalant, and doing away with Fate points entirely as a result. However, this is not necessarily going to be done. Just a thougth process and a potential trimming down of an extra unneeded system.

Hi!
  Well, I think this game has changed drastically. Sway has turned from a externally-focused. real measure of the character's effect on the world to an internally-focussed. alignment meter. This is not a bad thing, but it really changes what the game is about and the scope fo the character's deeds.
  And it looks like Dreamers are not using Ki, which means that there is no external factor to their power, but their power is supposed to alter/be effected by the very fabric of reality/consciousness.
  Ki feels tacked on to me. There's a personal value and an external value, but they don't seem to interact. Also, there doesn't seem to be a viable link between using Ki and recovering Ki. Especially if you are trying to have a gamist potential. Unless Magick is THAT powerful that you will only be casting one spell to banish a chimera or increase the joy of a whole region.  My guess is that a starting character with little or no Sway will not be able to Banish a Chimera with one spell, that being the case, Magick is nerfed, is that on purpose?
  It really seems to me like you are obsessing on mechanics and losing sight of the artistic vision that this world was created with. Perhaps you should design an ideal (ideal in your mind, meaning the kind of play you want to see/inspire) encounter including PCs, opposition, outcome, reward, etc. without regard to current/past rules. And then model the rules around that ideal encounter.
  Just an idea, I think you are really on to something and when it is complete, it will be a good game, good luck man!

Yea, its been an uphill struggle the whole way. The issue is making it appeal to as wide a base as possible, contain the complexity I want within the setting and still allow for extremely creative use of said setting without feeding the player/GM a heap of metaplot.

Ki IS used by dreamers. They require it to cast their power, as do Heroic Mortals. Magick draws on it as well. Ki is a central aspect to all character types. More Ki means more use of their power, which leads to greater dispalys of Awesomeness. With these icnreased dispalys of power, risk and reward follows (in the form of Sway). Ki can be drained from a place, by being pulled too far into the Bane/Fabric. When Ki is not present, it cannot be restored naturally. Thus, a player in a den of a Chimera would only have their own personal Ki to draw upon. When said Chimera is defeated, the Ki would return to that place and restore some balance to Reality.

Sway is both external and internal. It affects the character as a person, and what they are or appear to be. It affects others in that it alters what they see in you. It can also reflect their dreams and hopes, etc....which adversely affects the region in which they live.

Chris,

Ok, cool.  Lets talk a bit more about Ki.

How do characters use Ki?  Is it....
          ...inside of them, growing as the characters kill Chimera?
          ...part of the world, and returning to the world as characters kill Chimera?

What exactly will ki grant the players?  Does it give them...
           ...a finite number of uses for a power?
           ...a general increase to the amount of power they can use?

How is Ki gained?  Do the characters need to...
           ...kill Chimera and that's it?
           ...kill Chimera and perform other actions which return energy to the fabric?

I really liked Sway when I thought Realm was a Simulationist game.  Since you want it to be a Gamist game, I am afraid that it no longer seems to fit very well.  Basically, PCs will be driven to accumulate Ki.  All morality is secondary to that goal.  If they need to commit acts of evil in order to do this, they will do good in order to keep their Sway even.  More likely though, they will be using most of their power to fight the Chimera which will force their Sway to far on the positive side.  This will then require them to commit atrocities in order to keep themselves even.  This does not seem like the kind of heroic Gamisim you are going for.

If you want players to player the hero, then you need to give them some motivation to.  One way to do this would be to keep negative Sway dangerous but make positive sway harmless.  Allow PCs to play vampire and drink Ki the same way as a Chimera can.  Doing this will drop their Sway.  They can also loose Sway for transgressive or evil activity.  To gain Sway they need to perform great heroic acts.  Don't worry about the virtues.  The goal of Sway in this case would not be to explore the moral ramifications of power (a decent Narrativist or Similuationist goal but distracting and overly complicated in a Gamist game) but to motivate heroic game play.

Best,
       Bill

PS:  If you would rather build a game that explores human morality in situations of extream power then its still not to late to make this into a Simulationist game.  Otherwise, lets figure out the game play you want a rewards system to create it.

Allright, first, Ki:

How do Characters Use It?
-It is an internal energy force that governs their powers. Without it they cannot use powers. However, it is also a necessary part of the world around them. Like food, they can "ingest" it in a sense, in order to sustain their powers. This is done through numerous means (see below).

What Exactly Will Ki Grant Players?
-Ki is, for lack of a better term, Mana. They use it up when they activate abilities. However, UNlike mana, Ki does NOT regenerate on its own accord.While they can enter a deep meditative state to restore it, it will NOT restore naturally on its own.  Every power use (except the most powerful ones) use 1 Ki. More powerful ones might use 2, perhaps 3. At most.

How is Ki gained?
-Chimera or Incarna "death" releases their Ki back into the world. When this occurs, the character absorbs a part of this into themselves (perhaps 1 or 2 points) permanently. A player with a total Ki of 4 might increase to 5 suddenly.

-Ki can also be gained through inspiring others, or maintaining your ground in the face of extreme adversity. Basically, any severe emotional triumph or other similar action can result in rebuilding Ki in reality (and therefore, self)

now onto the other matterrs at hand.

I too much like the Sway idea. It adds a unique element to play that holds players in a certain constant struggle not just against their enemies, but also against themselves. I am , at best, hesitatnt to remove the idea. The virtues provide an excellent heroic outlet for Sway to operate (which is why i melded the two together and am happy with said result). However, you bring up an interesting point in that they will typicalyl be fighting evil and thus be highly on the positive.

So perhaps instead what we coul do is say that POsitive is always "good times". They dotn suffer penalties, ONLY bonuses. However, evil should have rewards if that is the case. I dont particularly like the idea of givign players the option of being Good and untainted...or Evil with Penalties and Extreme Benefits.

Relegating sway to evil or heroic acts and nixxing the virtues seems to make too much sense and be too simple a solution....it cuts out a lot of compleity (that i liked, but i suppose doesnt need to be there). And considering how "often" people utilize the Virtues in Exalted....I see your point about it only being overly pointless in a Gamist game.

So perhaps explain to me (in relation to Realm)  what a Simulationist game experience would function as? Narrative i grasp no problem. Simulationist i relegate simply to "more realistic" ...and while i like realism for detail, i LOATHE it for combat and other systems. I , and no one in my play group, have ever enjoyed an RPG where in turn 3 of the frst combat i can be decapitated by a bad dice roll. But I digress. I want to provide the most sensical style for the setting, without having the need to rewrite much of it.

I very , very much love the idea of the human morality aspect, but i also want players to be heroes in the style of wuxia, anime and so forth. There must be a way to include both.

Hi!
  Simulation is not "more realistic" it "Trueer to the source." If you were to make the perfect Star Trek game it would be a Simulationist game. Does that make sense?
  In other words, if you wanted to make Realm Sim, you would mold the rules to match your vision and ignore matters of game balance or narrative license. Where as with a Gamist approach, you are going to want the numbers to mean something and you are going to want to balance different numbers against each other to mean what you want. I think in the end, your game will be a clever combination of both...

  You said some other things that I think need attention:
Appeal: Good games are not necesarily those written to appeal to the broadest audience. Certainly Paranoia is popular, and yet, from the description of the game, you would imagine a limited appeal. Great games come from the passion and creativity behind them, not from diluted ideas. Stick to your guns, you have a good idea

Sway: I like the idea of Sway, and from what I am reading, it seems like sway is supposed to be a World-level resource that the players can tap into/effect. Maybe you should give them world sounding names instead of personal names, Like Hope instead of Compassion? Justice instead of Valor? Something that emphasizes the external focus? And maybe if a player has higher Sway then the region they are in they can either get a bonus based on the difference or sacrifice Sway for the greater good, so they don't have to worry about getting too high. Or doing something Bad to balance it out...

Ki: Ki is broken..I figure in a regular battle between one player and one chimera you are going to use 2, 3 or more and at the end of the fight you are only going to get 1 or 2 back? It would also be my guess that the kind of Dreamer power/Spell that would inspire masses of people and allow you to recover a Ki would cost 2 or 3 Ki to cast. I could be wrong about the inspiration, but I am guessing I am right about the Chimera.

  Hang in there Chris. What you have here is a great beginning. As soon as you find that right definition and mechanic that feels right to you, the rest will fall into place.

Chris,

Of the whole GNS model, I like the definition of Simulationisim the least.  It encompasses several different types of games.

If you were to make Realm Similuationist, I would recommend going for what I call Immersive Simulationisim.  The goal is to have the players experience the world through their characters.  You don't worry to much about "is this realistic" or establishing perfect constancy.  The goal is to have bring the players as close as possible to their characters.  They would feel their characters emotions, yearn for their characters goals and ambitions and feel the glory that their characters do.

The other kind is what I call Realistic Simulationisim.  This type of Sim attempts to build a truly consistant world.  Given the paramaters of the said reality your rule system perfectly reflects it.  Some people like this kind of Sim.  I don't.  Nor do I believe that this would be a good choice for Realm.

The major problem with Immersive Simulationisim is character motivation.  With both Gamisim and Negativism the system can motivate the players.  In Immersive Simulationist games it is almost always left up to the GM to motivate the players.  This is a lot of work for the GM and often ends up with players having conflicting goals or not wanting to do anything.

If you want an Immersive Simulationist game, I recommend ditching Ki, removing attributes and simplifying combat.  If you want a Gamist game then keep Ki and Attributes but remove the Emotions and Sway.  Combat will still need to be simplified, but significantly less then if you make Realm Immersive Sim.

Best,
        Bill

Allright, some godo points from both of you. Two differing perspectives, which is also a welcome thing in this case.

Okay, so lets say I take the purely Gamist route and ignore simulationism where it doesnt fit with the project (tehre are going to be aspects of it no matter what, since the players can literalyl build the world around them, in a sense)

If we remove Sway/Virtue, what method would make sense to "flatten" the playing field a bit for the higher levelled dreamers? What sort of balance could be instilled that would keep the dreamers dangerous to be, but rewarding without a threat to the character as a whole?

I will say that I VERY much like the idea of them and Heroic Mortals gaining certain elements of their particular alignment tendencies. A very evil guy will just RADIATE it aroudn him. People cowering before them on instinct, and whatnot. The angelic aspects of those who follow the path of the righteous, as well. Cool stuff there. Making it a tad weirder and not tied so much to traditional Christian concepts of good and evil will improve this drastically.

Ki needs to be present in some form, since they need to fuel their power somehow, and because regardless of how it is utilized it makes sense to exist. In its current form it does need some adjustment, but that is a simple matter in the grand scheme of things.

Hi!
  I dunno, I think you need to keep Sway. I think it can easily fit in a Gamist RPG, and you are already tapping into a gamist mechanic. The only challenge you'll have will be differentiating it from Exalted and making it reflect the external nature of it.
  My game has a similar (but watered down) system that I use for Reputation, I'll post the rules so you can see one possible approach maybe:
Gaining Reputation
Reputation--Witness--Witness Involved--Effected Not Involved--No Reward
-10 to 2-----------Y----------------Y/N-----------------------Y/N--------------------Y/N
3 to 5--------------Y-----------------Y-------------------------Y/N--------------------Y/N
6 to 8--------------Y-----------------Y--------------------------Y----------------------Y/N
9 to 10------------Y-----------------Y--------------------------Y-----------------------Y
Witness – The minimum way to gain positive Reputation is to have a witness that can recall the helpful deed.
Witness Involved – If there are witnesses that had a stake in the aid provided, the word will be spread further and wider, and higher Reputation Stats are possible.
Affected Not Involved – If the character was able to help and prevent the effected witnesses from having to exert any effort, the gain in Reputation will be even better.
No Reward – The only way to gain the ultimate levels of Reputation are to help without any desire for apparent reward.
  You could probably use a similar system for Sway.
  As to Ki, especially in a Gamist system, it just has to match up, spending and recovering. So either Spells/Dreamer Powers have to be able to defeat a Chimera in one or 2 points of Ki or you have to come up with more ways to recover it.

Chris,

Gameisim it is then.

Unfortunately, for a Gamest game, Sway as it is currently written does not flatten the playing field.  The goals and objectives are to focused in a Gamest game.  As long as they do evil in equal quantity to their good, dreamers will remain unaffected by it.

There is another way we could do Sway.  Players gain Sway and loose it when ever they commit an altruistic or transgressive action that has a very large cost.  (We can work out the specifics later.)  Positive sway gives the user a permanent advantage.  This advantage starts out small but can become significant.  When a player gains negative sway they gain minor long term penalties.  (Perhaps plants wither around them or people feel uneasy.)  However, they gain one point of a disposable currency.  A single point of this currency can be burned for a very large one time power boost.

This would make Sway a very important part of a players strategy, promote heroic (or villainous) game play.  Instead of acting as a weird restriction to be side stepped it will be integral for a character's effectiveness.  The down side is that still in no way acts as a deterant for Dreamers.  But at this stage I wouldn't worry about that to much.  We can worry about balancing the two classes for later.

So, if you accept this suggestion, our current currencies are:

Ki:  A currency burned when ever a power is used
Sway:  Slowly growing bonuses/penalties to effectiveness
           and possibly short term bonuses tied to the
           moral decisions their characters make.

It seems that we still have a fairly large hole in our core currencies.  How exactly do player gain additional powers for their characters?  Ki allows them to use their powers more often, but how are new powers themselves acquired?  Ki would work, or we could design another mechanic.

Best,
        Bill

I like the idea, a whole lot. It works in that form, Bill. Yes, some holes to patch up, but that will come in due time.

As for how a player gains new powers: spending XP, something most players are familiar with or understand the importance of. Obviously training would be needed for certain things (ie: no selecting a new skill Aspect if you havent ever heard of it before in-character.), but XP (technically "Skillpoints" in Realm) is the currency used to aquire.

Chris,

Ok, so your core currencies are:

Experience:  Most important currency, used to determine power level of characters.  Permanent.
Ki:  Second most important currency, used to fuel larger powers.  Expendable.
Sway:  Least important currency.  Gives bonuses and penelites.  Permanent and expendable.

What exactly is experience in Realm?  What do characters need to do to acquire it?  Since xp is the most important currency, it will be the driving force of your game, the major motivations for players to drive their characters towards.

Best,
        Bill

Experience is gained just through showing up, good roleplay, completing objectives, piecng togehter mysteries and completing story arcs. Maybe between 1 to 3 on average, per session. Some sessions may award more, and some players may consistently RP well and gain that extra experience as well.