In order to emphasize the otherworldly experience of a HeroQuest, has anyone tried using hypnosis on players during such a quest? I recently tried out a hypnotic experiment in shared dreaming, and it seems to me this might be very fitting for a game where one visits other planes to interact with mythical beings.

That sounds supremely dangerous to me.

I get mind-frelled enough as it is.

Why does it sound dangerous? What do you think might happen?

http://www.fmsfonline.org/hypnosis.html#chbd

I hope that the hypnotist in such an endeavor would be 1> Trained, 2> Knowledgeable, and 3> Ethical.

To me, those traits would probably be best embodied by a psychologist.

Is that what you have in mind?  I don't know you very well, are you a mental health practitioner?

http://realmagick.com/articles/56/556.html

At the end:

<quote>This is why hypnosis should not be considered a casual interaction, but an intimate communication that should be used with some respect. Just as it would be irresponsible to do other sorts of psychotherapy without training, hypnosis used irresponsibly can have unexpected and even unfortunate results with people who already have underlying serious problems (Coe and Ryken, 1979) (Hilgard, 1974). Since these sorts of problems sometimes go undiagnosed for years, they sometimes arise quite surprisingly in therapy.</quote>

Fred, what you're linking to & talking about is the use of hypnosis in therapy. This isn't what I do, nor what I'm talking about.

First of all, at the moment, I'm experimenting in recreational use of hypnosis, for the purpose of sharing vivid dream imagery.

Second of all, I'm making it very clear from the context that I'm not to be viewed as an authority. Participants are joining the experiment well knowing that we're all playing on the same field, at our own risk.

There's no promise or intention of healing anybody. Nobody's asked to confront or speak about any personal problems, nor did this happen in the experiment.

So while I could understand your concerns if I were to pose as a therapist, I think they're misplaced here.

I share some of Fred's concerns. Basically he's pointing out that even professionals consider it potentially hazardous to use. So what you're advocating sounds a tad like using prescription drugs to produce a hallucinogenic effect (just because you're not trying to treat something doesn't mean that something couldn't go wrong). It might well work, but there are some who'd have reservations about doing so.

In any case, the answer is no, nobody has done this. How do I know? Well I don't, really, but it's just improbable that somebody:
A) knows hypnosis
B) plays Heroquest
C) has thought to combine the two in the very specific way you suggest

Basically the Venn Diagram on these sets includes only you right now, in all likelihood.

Now, that said, I've never been hypnotized, and maybe I'm missing out on something powerful here, and not seeing the potential. I guess the thing is that I have plenty of fun with all parts of HQ play right now. So I guess I'm not seeing the need.

IIRC, Alexander Cherry knows something about hypnosis, and might be able to comment more substantively on this.

Mike

Mike has it.

The psychology community believes that hypnosis should be treated with respect, no matter what end it is put to.  As much as you have described, doesn't look like respect.  I'm inclined to side with the professionals.

Vaxalon wrote: As much as you have described, doesn't look like respect.

I'll join in just to be social: I think what Matthijs is doing is pretty interesting. I suggest that others set aside their authority-induced preconceptions about hypnosis and wait to see whether he manages to get some gaming mileage out of it. You never know. It's clear to me that you guys are just reacting to the medicalisation of hypnosis prevalent in modern culture; I suggest it'd be more fruitful to consider the curious phenomenon as what it is, instead of assuming that your therapist is necessary right about it. As far as I can see, our culture deals with hypnosis pretty much the same way it deals with drugs, and I'm sure most of you will agree that we're not exactly rational about that. The idea of hypnosis is scary, there's many myths involved, and the therapeutic profession handles it like an acquired benefit only they're worthy to explore. Regardless the fact remains that hypnosis is a separate phenomenon that inherently has little to do with the medical profession. As far as I'm concerned, no solid evidence is available for any claims against recreational use of hypnosis, and I'm loathe to accept any analogues to the tune of "it's like using drugs" that are not based in actual knowledge about the subject.

If Matthijs goes insane and jumps of a cliff because of recreational hypnosis, well, that's his problem. I know it's not a direction I'm interested in pursuing, but I'll be sure to invest in Hypnosis: the slumber when he publishes it ;)

I think Mike said pretty much everything about HQ and hypnosis; while the idea seems logical on the surface, I'd probably design a setting and rules specifically for the purpose if I were doing hypnotic experiments.

Speaking as someone who's studied hypnosis so far as to have at least a basic certification in hypnotherapy attained through training seminars and the like, I've got to say - what matthijs is suggesting (and has tried) is more respectful than, say, stage hypnosis.  Insofar as the word 'respect' even applies.  And stage hypnosis is completely safe for the majority of people.  This is more respectful than that, unless there's something matthijs has left out of his post about what he's suggesting. 

I can't say I'm a professional, insofar as I've not practiced hypnotherapy for money, but people with as much training and less experience than I have set themselves up as hypnotherapists and have done so successfully.  And I have done quite a bit of it in non-professional capacities.

In reference to Fred's quote in particular, I think matthijs is looking to, recreationally, achieve "an intimate communication that should be used with some respect."  Despite the fact that the article from which that quote comes is specifically about treating psychological problems with hypnosis (or as that article describes in the first paragraph, "hypnosis for change"), which matthijs is not doing, it sounds as though he's more than treating what he is doing with respect, in an attempt to create an intimate communication.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of propaganda about hypnosis, and a lot of people thinking "man, hypnotherapy to solve psychological problems can sometimes be dangerous, I shouldn't ever use hypnosis at all, even in non-therapeutic situations!"  This is where Fred is currently coming from, I think.  But hell, roleplaying to solve psychological problems can lead to issues as well.  That doesn't mean there can't be recreational roleplay - we're living proof of that.  And there's already recreational hypnosis, as I've pointed out before, in stage shows and the like.  What matthijs is suggesting is an extension of that side of the hypnotic coin, the showman side rather than the therapeutic side.

I think I'm done lecturing for now.  :) 

Here's what I think is strange about Fred and Mike's reactions.

It's been said many times that all role-playing is therapy; still nobody goes "then we need a license and years of training and approval from the APA!" Some of us use immersive techniques, communication processes designed to help us enter imaginary worlds and forget "reality" as best we can. Some of us even play in - and design - games that require players to bring their own personal issues/emotions to the table - most nar games do that. There's hardly any GM advice in Sorcerer, for example, about what do do if a player freaks out.

It seems to me that there's a lot more "dangerous" and "mind-altering" stuff going on in role-playing than what I'm proposing, if you're going to see things from that angle. I very much agree with Eero that you should look at what I'm doing, and not get all hung up about what I'm calling it.

Clearly, the word "hypnosis" gets knee-jerk reactions from many people - however, those reactions don't seem helpful or even relevant to what I'm trying to achieve right now.

I am willing to admit that my reactions are likely to be coming from ignorance.

Does it help to tell you that I witnessed a somewhat traumatic experience at a mishandled stage hypnosis session?

Yes, it does - personal experience matters. What happened? Is it anything you can relate to this discussion?

I'm personally not one of the folks who think of roleplaying as theraputic. Any more than any form of self-actualization is theraputic. That is, I think it's good for the soul, the same as any artistic endeavor is. But that doesn't make it therapy. Any more than eating pizza is therapy.

If I thought that every role-playing session really did intend to be actual psychological therapy, then yes, I would want it to be regulated. In point of fact, role-playing as an activity is used in actual regulated therapy, to say nothing of hypnosis. And I've seen role-playing in games, handled badly, cause considerable damage to people and relationships.

OTOH, sure, that's just life. By I think it's not a bad thing to recognize the potential dangers where they exist. I'm not concerned with the notion of a well-trained and well-intentioned hypnotist putting on a show, as it were. I'm worried about somebody who's read half a book about it deciding that this is a neat idea, and causing somebody some trauma from doing it badly. I'm not saying that's your condition, Matthijis, just that I don't know what your ability level with this is, or even what ability level is safe.

Anyhow, if this does turn out to be safe in this case, I'd be interested in hearing what happens when you try it.

Other than the safety issue, Matthijis, you seem to be looking for something else here. But I'm not sure what, precisely. Your initial query was pretty vague. Can you ask some more narrow questions that you'd like feedback on?

Mike

My reaction to this is similar to if you'd said, "I want to use some professional-sized fireworks and dynamite caps to add a real bang to my LARP! It'll be very cool!"  Yes, such a thing could be done safely but as a member of a community, I want its members to pursue its goals safely and sanely (and consensually). For hypnosis, consent isn't enough to get my blessing (whether or not you want it or care about it). I also want reassurances that you're being safe and you and the other participants are properly informed about the risks.

Like Fred, I'm pretty ignorant about the real risks, if any, that hypnosis presents. I recognize that, just because I am ignorant, it doesn't mean you are. Alexander seems to assure us that a little game hypnosis isn't that big a deal, and it's probably a better use than stage practice. Just make sure you and your friends are informed and careful, that's all. =)

Mike wrote: Other than the safety issue, Matthijis, you seem to be looking for something else here. But I'm not sure what, precisely. Your initial query was pretty vague. Can you ask some more narrow questions that you'd like feedback on?

Hmm, I don't know it this applies, but I've tried to use lucid dreaming to enhance my Orlanthi campaign. I don't know how this relates to the range of experiences possible in a state such as you described. However, I'll sum up my experiences briefly.

Now, I haven't done anything that would have effected my campaign very much, because I'm not an expert yet. Nonetheless, I'll tell you of my 3 experiences.

• QuestionThis happened one sunday morning when I had the time to induce a lucid dream. In the dream I wanted to meet Greg Stafford to ask him about EWF, because we have a PC who is messing about with dragons and Orlanth Dragonfriend (he wishes). I met Greg in a dream environment consisting of an old yellow building with a garage full of old Glorantha publications. Apparently he lived in this house. Anyway, I asked him to tell me about EWF and he said that they are spineless. I spotted Zin Letters among the magazines and got too exited to remember that I was dreaming, so the dreamscape shifted forward. . . The next time our group was playing I realized that in order to re-found the cult of Orlanth Dragonfriend, the PC needs to replace his spine with an EWF artifact (a staff of dragonbone that spits lightning) that had been in his possession for some time. 
• Nice ViewIn another dream another time, I decided that I'd like to see Sartar. The dreamscape shifted so that I was looking at the lands of the PCs clan. It looked cool and even had the forest that wasn't in any of our maps. I flew to Kerofin and it was cool. Flying tends to be. I didn't see much of Sartar on the way, because it was quite a blur. Flying up Kerofin ended me up in another dream, so that was that.
• Hello Mister NPCIn this dream I tried to create a NPC while dreaming. I have to say that I couldn't speak to him as I summoned him from the dreamstuff, but that was propably a result of my method. If I had searched for him instead of just "summoning" him out of nothing, interaction would have been more propable. Anyway, flashes of his past flickered in the dream, but I had to stop it, because becoming a passive watcher in the dream tends to make you lose your lucidity. After I had woken up, I had to finish and flesh out the NPC of course, but I liked the way he turned out. Besides, now I know how cool aluminum looks like in my Glorantha. ;)

These are just small experiments that I did a while back with lucid dreaming. Work, studies in the University and stuff like that have kept my lucid dreams pretty rare as I have not had the time to practice the induction techniques.

Anyway, I consider the tests worthwhile. Controlled lucid dreams seem to be a potentially powerful way of visualizing and brainstorming stuff related to RPGs, but the insights gained propably don't filter to other members of the gaming group as the dreams are understandably solitary activity.

Damn, we don't seem to have an editing option anymore.

I forgot to say that perhaps you could try map out a heroquest or myth in lucid dream before running it for a group or perhaps a new myth could be created by making up some of the participants and the topic of a myth and then have a lucid dream about it. Those two options could be some kind of practical / creative applications of lucid dreaming related to Gloranthan heroquests.

I can't say that I can guess how either of those could turn out. A lot of rewriting would still be needed I guess. That and I don't know how this relates to the state achieved by hypnotism.