Ever since finishing InSpectres, I've had a bunch of sales...which is great! :)

I've also taken some hit in the criticism department. The standard mantra seems to be "It's too much for a 40 page PDF."

On one hand, I don't really care. I know it's good...I know it's worth at least what I'm charging ($10). But there really is a strong feeling of PDFs being low quality compared to print versions (alas, references to the Imagine Player's Guide, Multiverser, Synnibar, et al would fall on deaf ears).

So should I care? If someone wants a game, they'll buy it (witness the newly unemployed me spending $70 yesterday on RPGs...yikes!). But I still have those guilty pangs about being the Free Game Guy for the past 5 years...and now I'm charging.

Huh.

Two things.

Firstly, PDFs are a matter of taste. Some people will never like them. Others, including myself, see them as perfectly acceptable and a sensible way of bringing a small press game to market. You will appeal to the second lot and never to the first, so it goes.

Secondly, what you are charging for is better than what you gave away for free. Your free stuff was good, but the stuff you are doing now is better. The time you have spent designing and knocking ideas about over the last 5 years shows. You are entitled to charge for that.

I intend to buy a copy of Octane and of Inspectres. Why? Because they are worth (more than) what you charge for them and I will have fun with them. What could possibly be wrong with that? I get good games. You get a, frankly very small, bit of money and you get to know that I value your work enough to pay for it. Downloading is easy. When someone pays you know they want what you've done.

Does that make any sense?

Wow, so much for my contrast between Jared and Dav in the RPG Theory thread ...

Anyway, let's not forget something - as long as you make the size of the game clear prior to someone hitting the Buy button, then you're golden. No one can tell you what to charge for the game; they can only choose to buy or not to buy.

Best,
Ron

Ron Edwards wrote: Wow, so much for my contrast between Jared and Dav in the RPG Theory thread ...

Anyway, let's not forget something - as long as you make the size of the game clear prior to someone hitting the Buy button, then you're golden. No one can tell you what to charge for the game; they can only choose to

Here's your pat:

It's 40 pages. 40 pages of not-large text. With normal margins, not game-book-I-could-play-tennis-on-this margins. Without art.

Man, that's more text than you'll find in the average d20 supplement that runs $15-20.

And personally, I could care less about having a print version - I like to be able to put everything for a game, including supplements, errata, character sheets and what not, in a three-ring binder.

If you ask me, $10 is too cheap. (Although I'll admit I'm weird, and $10 is about all anyone will pay for a PDF.)

Fuck 'em Jared.

Seriously, I said before in the thread on game pricing that most games would sell just as well with a higher price on them.

1) Anyone who doesn't want to spend $10 on a game isn't a gamer. $10 is 2 trips to McDonalds. $10 is 1 movie ticket and maybe a small soda...maybe... $10 is a cheap T-shirt off the discount rack, or a preowned DVD.

2) If they're rating value by quantity as opposed to quality they probably aren't the demographic you're going for anyway.

If Inspectres sucks, I'll feel it was $10 wasted. If it kix ass then its money well spent whether its 40 pages or 4.

Here is another way around the issue:

Say I release my Eldritch Ass Kicking in 40 page glory w/ artwork, w/ rules, w/character sheet, w/starting adventure, w/multi-platform character generator..... heh

And I charge $5 for it.... Am I going to screw up Jared's success? Am I going to mess with the market? Am I going to make it so that people will want to pay less for PDFs?

heck, if i know...

I say stick it at $10 Jared.

Although, do you have any banged or dented copies you might let go for half price? :)

Thanks,
Nathan
the Cheap One

Clinton R Nixon wrote: And personally, I could care less about having a print version - I like to be able to put everything for a game, including supplements, errata, character sheets and what not, in a three-ring binder.

Mike Holmes wrote: And one more thing. You are losing money on copies that are bieng distributed to people who haven't paid. Sure nobody you ask will admit that this happens, but it's an unfortunate side effect of pubhlishing in such a manner. So part of the cost you have put in there is going to covering the loss of business due to this sort of theft. Or if you see it as ligitimate, then it is a liscensing fee. And a damn chep one at that.

Jared,

It is very difficult to put a price on creative works, especially for the creator. This is all the more true with a small press product. Without art, printing, distribution, staff, etc. coming into play all you have to judge is the material you wrote.

If you want to feel better do this equation (pat on the head):
The total amount of income you generate selling this product divided by the number of hours you worked on conceptualizing, writing, testing and outputting this product.
If you sell 50 of these products (which may be relatively high) and worked on this project for months or years you will probably be making less than $1 an hour. In other words, forget about the people who tell you its too much. Your time and creative energy is very valuable. (everything is going to be just fine)

Reality Check
Your game = $10 (Good for many night of multiple friends' enjoyment)
1 New York City Movie Ticket = $10 (Good for 2-3 hours of enjoyment)
1 Large paperback book =$10 (Good for a few days of enjoyment)
1 or 2 six packs = $10 (Good for a night of enjoyment)
$10 Hooker = $10 (Nevermind, you get the picture)

I paid my $10 yesterday, downloaded this morning and glanced through it feeling like I got my money's worth.

After shelling out $74 earlier this week for CoC d20 and the WtA Storyteller's Guide, and flipping through Godlike and putting it aside because it would tip the balance over $100, after paying $26+ s/h for a used copy of Castle Falkenstein and then waiting impatiently for 4 weeks for it to arrive, after printing out The Window and weeping because of the useless art design wasting major ink......

... I was more than happy with the mere $10 Inspectres cost, for what it offered in terms of "meat".

$5 for a PDF was reasonable when hardcovers where $20-$30 + tax. $8-$10 is reasonable when hardcovers are $25-$35 + tax.

Jared,

Here () are some virtual cookies and milk. And here () is a nice pat on the back. :) InSpectres rules, it's well worth ten bucks. Like everyone else has said, we've all bought 'published' games that have cost a lot more and delivered a lot less (my most recent flub was SLA Industries). I would have bought one if you would have sent me an 'ad' for it rather than my 'playtest copy', even with writing Geek Season w/ Mike...

Anyone who whines about the $10 has obviously not thought about it before shooting their yap off... Like you see in all the other posts, $10 is worth about a meal, movie, or paperback, and IS provides as much entertainment as any of these.

When are the InSpectres t-shirts going to be printed??? :)
Sean

I was planning on sending friends to buy copies (still am, but it will be a few months yet as I'm going to run a game or two for them first, and then wait till they ask me where I got this cool game--and tell them)

Jared,

I haven't bought your stuff yet. Tight budget at the moment, etc., ad whinyum. I'm one who has downloaded MUCH of what you've offered on your site and enjoyed it very much. Ten bucks is a bargain for a Memento-Mori game in ROUGH form, let alone a polished PDF format. Let the guilt go. Enjoy the benefits of being a professional game designer.

When's the PDF version of eight going up, anyway? My fingers might skitter into my wallet for that one, budgetary constraints or no.

Best,

Blake

Thanks everyone. Fragile psyche...healed! Oh, and I found my sunglasses. Life is good.

It's funny. Now that my first major game is out the door, I'm feeling more confident that yes, I CAN do some more games and sell them.

octaNe is next (and I'll hopefully have several treats to go along it)...!

Blake Hutchins wrote: When's the PDF version of eight going up, anyway? My fingers might skitter into my wallet for that one, budgetary constraints or no.

Jared,

There are folks who were born to whine. They seem to be thicker on the Internet than anywhere else, probably because of the false notion that you can't easily lay hands on them. Most of these people wouldn't be willing to make those same statements in person, owing to the fact that they aren't willing to risk the pounding. I mean, would you tell Scott Knipe that his game sucked to his face? (not that I've met Scott, but there's a little known biological mechanism triggered by tilting your head far back to look up at someone that inspires good manners.)

Go watch Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back if the whiners get to you. I thought the movie had a great take on the subject.

Though the topic seems pretty well done, I'll add a little bit to it..

Gamers will gripe and moan about the price of a game.. They'll gasp in shock at how much they're being overcharged for a game. They will walk out of the game store in a huff... then they will come back and shamelessly lay the money down on the counter. Someone else made this same point somewhere (I think it was Dav in one of the game price threads) and it's a truth. Gamers will gripe about the price, but they'll still pay. It's not a matter that they think it's too much. It's a matter of principle that just a book, with less paper content and ink than a heavy hardback novel is going to cost $35 (or that an information medium that doesn't even come on a disk is going to cost anything..) is going to cause complaints. But it doesn't mean that the product isn't worth it. It's not the format, it's not the size.. It's the content. Be happy, and ignore the gripes. People would still do it if you dropped it to $5.

Dav (that soulless capitalist!)

Clay Wrote:

I mean, would you tell Scott Knipe that his game sucked to his face? (not that I've met Scott, but there's a little known biological mechanism triggered by tilting your head far back to look up at someone that inspires good manners.)

hardcoremoose wrote:
And Clay, weren't you the one coming down to Ann Arbor with a baseball bat to de-program me? I thought so.

In my opinion games cost WAY too much these days. Back in the day I went from those little ziplock bag games that were handmade impulse buys to hardcover monstrosities with poorly exploited color. Instead of comparing current game prices to things like meals at fast food joints I think it would be more useful to compare them to the price of video games. Sure, a $30 paper and pencil game is in the same ballpark as a recently released PC game (my brother just picked up Dungeon Siege for $30). take an homest look at the work that goes into both products. Sure, we work hard at creating our games but PC games have budgets that go into the millions and teams of very talented artists that provide an instantly accessible look and feel. A paper and pencil game may will provide more entertainment in the long run but the consumer has to do more of the work and if they are a gamer they already have a stack of systems so we have to be darn sure we are giving them a good value.

Alex Gray wrote: In my opinion games cost WAY too much these days. Back in the day I went from those little ziplock bag games that were handmade impulse buys to hardcover monstrosities with poorly exploited color. Instead of comparing current game prices to things like meals at fast food joints I think it would be more useful to compare them to the price of video games. Sure, a $30 paper and pencil game is in the same ballpark as a recently released PC game (my brother just picked up Dungeon Siege for $30). take an homest look at the work that goes into both products. Sure, we work hard at creating our games but PC games have budgets that go into the millions and teams of very talented artists that provide an instantly accessible look and feel. A paper and pencil game may will provide more entertainment in the long run but the consumer has to do more of the work and if they are a gamer they already have a stack of systems so we have to be darn sure we are giving them a good value.

Don't get me wrong - I think a well designed and professionally presented game is worth $20 to $30. Personally - I think anything higher than $30 is highway robbery. I don't think most of the $20 to $40 supplements are worth anywhere near that much. I can walk out of Half Price books out here in Austin with a bag full of fiction that has far more substance for that much. I can see several movies or rent even more. In my opinion one of the reasons games sell in modest quantities is the price. Inexpensive games have been tried but they are often not as attractive as the $40 monsters so they don't offer compelling sales figures. If an indie game that is likely to be played a few times is going to succeed I think it has to come in somewhere between $12 and $24. A rack of indie games with the same price range as high end tech magazines would clear out much more quickly than books that favor "competitive pricing". When I ran Pariah Press we sold the Whispering Vault for $20 and I was convinced it was too expensive but it moved pretty well. I think a $30 price tag would have killed it dead.

Alex,

Bob is right on with what he's saying. Truth is, I couldn't have sold Little Fears for any less without ending up negative at final tally. If RPGs had a wider fanbase, then maybe publishers could charge less for their goods. But fact is, the pen and paper RPG market is tiny. Publishers have to take a good hard (and realistic) look at their investment and potential return and price accordingly. Sure, we'd all like games to be $5, but it's not going to happen. It can't happen. Not without a customer base explosion to the size of the computer game market (or, hell, the action figure market).


Hey... you responded while I was writing this...

To address what you just said, high end tech magazines have the luxury of advertising. Why can PCMagazine and WIRED charge what they do for each issue? Because Dell, MS, Gateway, Palm, and all the rest are dropping high 4 figures for an ad. Game publishers are barely surviving as is. Supplements are high because of the fact that they're going to be lucky to move the print run. Publishers supplement lines to keep their main game in consumers' (and retailers' and distributors') minds. But those supplements are, generally, not going to pay for themselves. If they don't supplement, however, the game line is considered "dead" and the two other tiers in the retail game forget who you are.

I am painfully aware of the obstacles that face independent publishers. It is obvious that many have risen admirably to the challenge. New technologies offer new solutions. In my experience - where there is a will there is a way. I realize that we could all afford to charge less if we could be sure that we would move more copies but I don't think we are going to build that audience by giving them anything short of the most we can for the lowest possible price. There is nothing wrong with trying to make a profit but there are a lot of ways to go about it. For example - establishing a line with a loss leader then offering support with a higher margin will reward your investment by building goodwill with your fan base. Free or cheap PDF demos are a terrific idea. The printing Co-Op on the resource page is brilliant. None of this is news to any of you I'm sure so I'm sorry if it seems preachy. I just don't think there us any reason to break the $30 barrier. Expensive games hurt all of us. I think the gamers who shell ut that kind of cash have every right to complain.

Alex Gray wrote: I think the gamers who shell ut that kind of cash have every right to complain.

Just took a look at Little Fears. Very, very nice and solid price point. Not at all the kind of thing that worries me. $20 is a completely reasonable price for that kind of work. There are folks who would have gone higher while spouting "whatever the market will bear". Anyone who bitches about the price point in this case should be tossed into an industrial size washing machine with a handful of jacks.

Alex,

Just so you don't think I'm jumping on you, I agree that games should be priced fairly. Personally, I like the $20 mark. But games that offer a lot more content than Little Fears, for example, should be priced accordingly. That's what people are paying for in the pen-and-paper market: content. And it's a funky kind of content in that it must provide the user with story ideas (or plot ideas at least) and give them the tools to cooperatively write a story.



And, thank you, by the way for the LF compliment.

Personally, I think "what the market will bear" is a terrible way to do business but it is a political stand with me that stretches far beyond RPGs and the games industry. Any further discussion will end up devolving (evolving?) into a debate about economic theory. Let's just say I prefer to charge what something is worth (if possible) and I will only buy products that are fairly priced and traded (unless I have no choice - as in the artificially manipulated gasoline market that was previously mentioned).

Alex,

I'm going to ask you let this drop, if you're arguing from the basis of ideology. A lot of it's been discussed on the Forge before, especially in this Price-setting thread, if you're interested in others' views.

If you really want to bring the issue up as a basis for debate (rather than "what I think" "what I think" exchanges), then feel free to start a new thread.

Best,
Ron

Oops - teach me to dive in blind :: grin :: I am new here and an ill-mannered lout. Consider the subject dropped. I will do more reading and less posting until I get the hang of the rythms here.

Taking his opinionated self down off the soap box

Alex