Hello, this is my first post! Anyway, me and my best friend/lacky have been working on an indie project, and I have decided to have a sort of design journal here, only it's intent is to have communication with other people about my idea's. I will state here that our process is as follows, come up with setting and character type concepts apropriate for gaming, then elaborate on them and their foe's, work on what we wish to be run in a game, and then work out the system to suport it.

Thus far we have come up with a basic concept, in ancient times their were older races lost to the memory of man and events happened, this may not sound very descriptive, but we intend to have each of the character types tell their own legends and accounts of what happened.

Our character types so far are the dons, don taken from british scholar, who through moments of un-obfuscated knowledge of the world around them are aproached by one of two groups, the watchers: a group who seek these people out a provide them with an ancient ability that is inherant in themselves but is held back and clouded by the other group I mentioned, the rancarium: a group who while hiding this power from man, also aproach those who are fit to recieve the power, and grant them it, as well as madness. This naturaly serves as a generic enemy for adventures.

The other character type we currently have concieved are the aerials, who use shards who's origin is steeped in legend, that they insert into their palms, representing one of five "mirriors" their game names are undetermined but they represent space-time, life, fate, mind, and natural forces. These shards hold powers, the more specific it is, the easier it's use will be, so the aerials combine the abilities in creative ways, for example Tim has a shard alowing him to spark a flame, another to move flame, and another to increase it's size but not intensity, now with these he could control shapes of fire, but say he had a shard capable of turning fire into ice, he would have control of fire shapes AND ice shapes. These shards are forged from untapped shards that are useless, so the as of now unamed makers form them basing their ability on their size and potency, these men will be rare. Now the ability to use the shards is hereditary, and the families like to remain within themselves as clans, with hundreds of small clans, and a handful of massive globe spanning ones. An aeronite can't have infinite shards or power however, as he grows in experience, he can "liquidate" more of the shards, allowing him to use more and larger shards, now if aerial uses more energy then he can handle, he overburns

I realize that all this text is daunting, but please post responses, and if enough people are interested, I'll posy what we have of each of the character types backgrounds, and other things we have worked out already.

OH, I'm sorry, I forgot to post what the dons do! They have a small amount of control of reality around, mostly on their own bodies, as they progress they gain the ability to become more and more superhuman while exerting their power, and at a slower pace also gain minute control on the world around them, like softening metal with a touch.

OK, I have now done some work on the system. The dice system I am using is a dice pool. now the main portions of a character are:

skills- attributes that take away from the difficulty of a roll

attributes- inherent capabilities that allow for easier attempts at skills and other actions by adding more dice, used in almost all checks

feats- generally specific abilities that add more dice to your efforts

effects- special capabilities that vary based on character type, usually with their own rules

quirks- generally small abilities that add little to actual gameplay other than maybe a few less difficulty or the occasional dice, that serve to help create a unique character

movement- the characters base speed in meters

run movement- double the normal movement, actions done during this time suffer a -4 dice penalty, DM's discretion as to what can be done while running

initiative- the bonus applied to dice rolls for movement, if you have over 5 init higher than opponent then you automatically go first

Now for the attributes

All attributes come in pairs, you may not have one attribute at 5 unless it's pair is at 3+

attributes-
AF [awarness- a character's alertness
focus- ability to stay on task, drive twords completing a task]

SE [strength- a characters sheer brawn
endurance- their ability to soak of pain, stamina]

SI [social- capbility to use social interaction to once advantage
intelligence- smarts]

AP [apearance- physical apearance
pois- composure]

RD [reflexes- reaction speed and ability
dexterity- deftness of the body and hands]

Feats- A feat cannot have more ranks than the lowest attribute of it's pair. A feat adds more dice to a relevant roll.

I know I havn't posted a question, but I have gotten no replies, could I get some feedback if you have the chance?

DarkAsmodeous wrote:
I know I havn't posted a question, but I have gotten no replies, could I get some feedback if you have the chance?

Thanks for the feedback!

And as for that, to be honest, as I made the system, we were still in the phases of fleshing out the other 3 character types

There are the keepers and guardians, who both are members of the oath clans, a group steeped in ritual and ceremony who also act as a sort of "police" ensuering that magical beings and the like aren't exposed to the public. These character types use more traditional magic in the area's of air, water, fire, earth, life, and wind, however the keepers focus on the more dramatic damage inflicting area's of earth fire and water and are your traditional wizards. The Guardians are more physically and defensively based, focusing on air, life, and wind; These guys spend years honing their body as well as their magic and tend to Cary a weapon that they focus in, and as a result have access to more weapon based feats. And neither one may have more than to ranks in a magical are that they do not specialize in. The guardians and keepers work together towards the goals of the oath clans, policing the use of magic and keeping the peace, as of now the number of clans is undetermined, I'm thinking four or five, keep it small and simple.

The fifth and final character type are currently unarmed(we call them reapers for now) are your 'Witch' type characters, using blood and souls to work their will,  the darker side of magic. Needless to say, they are not popular with the oath clans, I'm considering making a sort of "inquisition" style character.

Appearance and strength are for situations when magic would be unacceptable, or you are not skilled in that area of the game.

The setting is modern day, but we are considering having an area, maybe a nuclear wasteland, that only the supernaturals dwell in.

My question is, do you think that the skills and feats are redundant?  And also, is their anything else you think should be changed?

OH! I didn't answere your last question, I have noticed that there is no real goal for any of the character types besides the keepers and guardians, so we are thinking mysteries and problems that they must deal with that will form them together, as well ans the enemy types that I will cover in my next post. And the different groups sometimes band together in combat against the others, as well as the ancient being that turned against humanity.

And thanks for the welcome!

My question is, do you think that the skills and feats are redundant?  And also, is their anything else you think should be changed?

Once again, thanks for the reply!

Question one, what is the point of my game.

oops, that posted while I was typing :/

Anyway, Question one

              My game is about the pursuit of power within the hierarchy of the world, whilst attempting to learn the mysteries of the past and keep order, amongst themselves, and the darker beings that roam just out of sight.

Question 2, what do the characters do

            Depending on their type, they hunt down that which gives them power, work for their corresponding organizations, seek knowledge to alleviate the curses and pains that each one suffers(not yet established) and to work towards defeating the darker organizations and beasts, or even eachother.

Question 3, what do the players do

            At first, simply deciding what their characters are going to work towards, be it order, chaos, power, or knowledge, as this will effect the game to suit them at higher points of development, and to make moral decisions, as the GM will often present the need to remain compassionate and the like or to disregard it(considering working that in rule wise) and at higher points in the game, to point the organizations to or against war, or to forever change the world.

As for skills and feats

their are only a few skills that will be pretty broad, that make rolls easier by lowering the target number, whilst feats are more specific, and some have restrictions as to who can have them, and they add more dice to the rolls.

I am now questioning whether or not I want to stick with this system, but I have been doing some work on it, I have reduced the attributes to 8, and made a list of 3 skills per pair of attributes for a total of 12 skills.

Attributes

Dexterity
Reflexes

Strength
Endurance

Appearance
Social

Awareness
Composure

Skills

DE [Aim
Drive
Precision]

SE [Melee
Weaponry
Intimidate]

AS [Seduction
Persuade
Gather Information]

AC [Senses
Resolve
Focus]

I am considering making the game a little less traditional style by perhaps using a less skill based system. Possibly one with character beliefs goals quirks and paradigms fitted into the rules, do you think this would be possible to implement without sucking the fun of choice from the players?

You have some good answers to the three questions. I will see these answers as being what is important in your game. Just one thing: What do you see as being the main conflict(s) in the game. If there are more that one please prioritise them. And please keep the list below five conflicts.

I am now questioning whether or not I want to stick with this system, but I have been doing some work on it, I have reduced the attributes to 8, and made a list of 3 skills per pair of attributes for a total of 12 skills.

I am considering making the game a little less traditional style by perhaps using a less skill based system. Possibly one with character beliefs goals quirks and paradigms fitted into the rules, do you think this would be possible to implement without sucking the fun of choice from the players?

Thank you, your comments on beliefs and Exp have got me thinking, I am going to be using a small amount of Exp system so I wouldn't want players just focusing on hoarding that, so I decided to make it a DM call. If a player has adequately roleplayed his beliefs into good situations, he gets 1-2 Exp at the end of the adventure, if he does the same for negative consequences then an additional 1-2 is given. I am undecided as to how beliefs will effect game rolls.

As for conflicts I'm not sure whether you mean things that players overcome, or between groups in the game.

DarkAsmodeous wrote:
Thank you, your comments on beliefs and Exp have got me thinking, I am going to be using a small amount of Exp system so I wouldn't want players just focusing on hoarding that, so I decided to make it a DM call. If a player has adequately roleplayed his beliefs into good situations, he gets 1-2 Exp at the end of the adventure, if he does the same for negative consequences then an additional 1-2 is given. I am undecided as to how beliefs will effect game rolls.

As for conflicts I'm not sure whether you mean things that players overcome, or between groups in the game.

Perhaps at the end of an adventure the DM can ask what the player thinks he did to earn the experience, and when he is done the DM awards it if necessary and explains why some things worked and other didn't.

As for conflicts
~ Friction between families and organizations that turn to conflict of some sort(not always violent0
~Older darker creatures seeking to harm them or others
~Grappling with the curses and problems of their existence
~Pursuit of ancient knowledge and the dangers involved in doing so
~Characters own existence and place in society, including the contrast between magical and mundane society

A little rant about XP:

The thing you reward the player for, is what the character is going to do. The thing the player can use there XP on, is where the character is going to advance.

Now, this is very important, because this is tied into what the game is about. Actually the reward system is properly the most important system, so you have to be very careful when you design it.

The players get rewarded when they are acting on there beliefs. That is fine, because it is flexible, so it is easy to direct the character to what is important for the game.

You will give 1-2 XP at the end of an adventure. I don't know how long you expect an adventure to be, but 1-2 XP seems to me to be very few. But I believe you are thinking about XP the wrong way.

You properly see XP as something to be used to advance in skill or attributes. But look at what the game is about. The game is NOT about character advancing their skills and attribute. The game is about "pursuit of power within the hierarchy of the world" and "seek knowledge to alleviate the curses and pains that each one suffers" and "Pursuit of ancient knowledge". So maybe it should be possible to us XP to achieve these thing.

Maybe it will help if you use an other term than XP. Maybe story point or hero point or something.

Don't get me wrong. It should properly be possible for the character to advance there skills and attributes. But there is other hing that is more important for the game.

btw. I like the idea of letting the player state, when he think he should earn XP.

- Anders

Hmm.. This is very interesting, I was considering a system that also uses relationship points with the different groups, affecting rolls realted to it, but dismissed it as needlessly complex. Perhaps I can use a Rank point aspect, that when you rise in power you gain "advancement  points" and when you find secrets you also gain "advancement points", about buying secrets, I think that should be something the adventure does, not points, however perhaps you can use them to increase your status by having a numbered status withing groups?

I need to ponder this.

Thank you for the EXELENT feedback

Thank you for the EXELENT feedback

Alright, I am now going to adress this last feedback, yes the dons serve as scholarly characters, but occasionaly there are dons that decide that their power makes them invincible, or that they need ot administer justice, this is being reflected in the belief system that me and my partner are drafting up, we are also implementing a fears system. I have also noticed that the Aerials do not have much of a goal, so I have been working on making the shards a blessing as well as a curse. The use of shards is now addictive, and the characters risk subcumming to it for short amounts of time depending on the power they use, and we are creating creatures that for whatever reason we form, and they seek strentgh to battle of these creatures, as well as free their clans from ancient duties that now serve as shackles that cannot be broken.

In regards to the group mythology, I like the idea, however I do not want to punish the players for not having one of each type, perhaps since the players for the most part will not be working on large skale politics(kept very simple) until mid-level,  there are places known as havens that characters gather at to seek aid in the jobs given by those of more power, and political differences have little sway on oppinions at the street level parties can form fairly easily, you wouldn't of course get a Aerial of the clan McGregor to bomb his house right? So this will allow for reasonable limitations there, and at mid to high level, characters will be thrust together for whatever political, life-threatening, mystery solving, or odd adventure the DM can toss due to common goals. Now DM's run games of only Aerials of the clan Akihiro and work soley from that groups view, it would all be up to the DM and players.

And I think I may have not done a good job of portraing the dons, yes they do have a thirst for knowledge greater than any other group, however their ability to warp reality has it's greatest effects on their own bodies, allowing for super-human abilities rather than magical seeming ones, they can alter reality in a limited way around them such as softening metal, or helping a tree to grow.

There have been some different things that I have wanted to write, but never got around to. So I will collect them here.

First some links

You may want to take a look at <a href="http://www.anvilwerks.com/?The-Shadow-of-Yesterday">Shadows of Yesterday by Clinton R. Nixon. In that game there is a system of beliefs, called Keys. It is properly not what you are going for, but there you can at least see how a beliefs system can be done.

I resently got pointed out <a href="http://bankuei.blogspot.com/2006/02/flag-framing_03.html">this article about Flagging. A beliefs system can be used as Flags. But it is also possible to have a dedicated flagging mechanic.

Little more about the setting

In your first post you have this:

Thus far we have come up with a basic concept, in ancient times their were older races lost to the memory of man and events happened, this may not sound very descriptive, but we intend to have each of the character types tell their own legends and accounts of what happened.

Hmm.. This is very interesting, I was considering a system that also uses relationship points with the different groups, affecting rolls realted to it, but dismissed it as needlessly complex. Perhaps I can use a Rank point aspect, that when you rise in power you gain "advancement  points" and when you find secrets you also gain "advancement points", about buying secrets, I think that should be something the adventure does, not points, however perhaps you can use them to increase your status by having a numbered status withing groups?

To help me get things in perspective, I have made a preliminary outline, let me know if I missed anything. oh, and I named the reapers Anointed.

Intro
Short story set in world, not focusing on any one type
Introduction
Setting
Opening lore
World
Character types
Creature types
Aerials
Description
Society
Beliefs/religion
Magic
Goals
                  Anointed
Description
Society
Beliefs/religion
Magic
Goals
                      Dons
Description
Society
Beliefs/religion
Magic
Goals
Guardians
Description
Society
Beliefs/religion
Magic
Goals
Keepers
Description
Society
Beliefs/religion
Magic
Goals
Characters
Creation
Templates
Aerials
Anointed
Dons
Guardians
Keepers
Magic
Shards/Aerials
Rituals/Anointed
Perceptions/Dons
Spells/Guardians/Keepers
Taints
Aerials
Anointed
Dons
Guardians
Keepers
Running the game
                      Rules
General
Combat
Flavor

Creation/Running
Advice
Concept
                  Planning
Preparation
Play
Reward
                    Sample
Introduction/overview
Adventure
Rewards
NPC stats
Glossary
Index
Credits

I can not see anything obvious you have missed. But I have some questions.

What is "Templates". Is something to do with character sheets? And "Taints". It sounds cool, but what is it? And "Flavor"?

And a comment: I can see you have a chapter about combat. Why? All the character types are magic users, and for what I can see, the game is not about combat; where is combat important? You may want to have something about magical combat, though.

- Anders

Templates has to do with the character creation for that type of character, taints are the curses involved with having the magical abilities, still working on those. Flavor rules are optional rules having to do with more narative play and the like.

I keep hitting tab then enter, and it makes me post :\

Anyway, combat is their for several reasons, it will not be very rule intensive, and it will use integrated rolls, but sometimes the use of magic just isn't acceptable or the player wants to have a crossbow, who knows? Also, the guardians as I said often have a weapon of choice which also sets them apart from the keepers, for all their magic is generally clerical or augments their weapon. And magical combat will have some information on it in both the combat and magic sections.

I am sorry, but I am going to go into one of my rants again. I should properly just let you get on with your game in peace.

The reason I asked you why you have a combat system, is not that I necessarily think that you should not have a one. But I see too many games include a combat system, just because most other game have one.

And thats really not a very good justification!

First I will collect here what you game is about:

The three questions
1) My game is about the pursuit of power within the hierarchy of the world, whilst attempting to learn the mysteries of the past and keep order, amongst themselves, and the darker beings that roam just out of sight.

2) Depending on their type, they hunt down that which gives them power, work for their corresponding organizations, seek knowledge to alleviate the curses and pains that each one suffers(not yet established) and to work towards defeating the darker organizations and beasts, or even eachother.

3) At first, simply deciding what their characters are going to work towards, be it order, chaos, power, or knowledge, as this will effect the game to suit them at higher points of development, and to make moral decisions, as the GM will often present the need to remain compassionate and the like or to disregard it(considering working that in rule wise) and at higher points in the game, to point the organizations to or against war, or to forever change the world.

The conflicts
~ Friction between families and organizations that turn to conflict of some sort(not always violent)
~Older darker creatures seeking to harm them or others
~Grappling with the curses and problems of their existence
~Pursuit of ancient knowledge and the dangers involved in doing so
~Characters own existence and place in society, including the contrast between magical and mundane society

We have determined that we want to simplify the attribute system, the new attributes are
  Body
  Mind
  Social
  Reflex

And your rants are very helpful, my partner is lazy, and as competent as a retarded orangutan

DarkAsmodeous wrote:
And your rants are very helpful, my partner is lazy, and as competent as a retarded orangutan