Well, after re-tooling the system a little bit in this thread: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=18724.0 I've worked over the general concept, removed the universal required magic system in favor of a more creative, make-your-own-magic type system, and pretty much have it done, except for one thing: taking damage and health.

To bring everyone up to speed, characters in Neverwake are sad people dreaming the same dream together at the same time.  It's a mythical, medieval place, and is designed to bring back what the characters lost in real life.  Since the entire world of Neverwake is one big dream, I want to try to get the system of health and taking damage to reflect that, with a character's death representing them waking up - you die in Neverwake, you wake up, and can't go back.

Here's how it's shaping up so far: You have five dots of Health, and five dots of Lucidity.  When you suffer damage, you bubble in one dot of Health.  Suffer damage again, you bubble in another dot of Health.  When you bubble in all five dots of Health, you bubble in one dot of Lucidity.  Then, un-bubble all your Health dots.  Then the process repeats all over again.  If you ever fill up your Lucidity dots, your character dies, wakes up, disappears.  That's it for them.

Now, the only thing I can't figure out is how to regain points of Lucidity.  Once bubbled in, how do you un-bubble them?  I'm really at a loss here.  Since Lucidity represents your connection to the dream world, I'm thinking of something along the lines of having your character "ground" himself in the dream world somehow, to strengthen his connection to it.  But, I have no idea how to achieve this.  I've been thinking it over and can't come to any conclusions.  Maybe I should just implement a generic hit point system?  I'm open to suggestions.  Once I have that part done, I'll have the project ready, and I'll provide a link in this thread for everyone who is interested to see.

Thanks!

Isn't the game really about coming to terms with loss? Learning how to let go?

Well, getting rid of lucidity could be done by working out with the player some way their PC is clutching on even harder now...creating even more issues to deal with, when it comes to letting go.

Hi. I think we´ve got an even number of posts or something, so here I´m trying to help you.
Actually I don´t see how your system differs from Hit Points. You have 25 HP, they are called Health Points, and every five of them, there is a fluffy thing where you lose some lucidity; also, gaining back one Lucidity point would be regaining 5 HP. You hit the last of your HP, you´re out of the game. I think you´ve got (D&D) hit points, what, please tell me, would be the difference?

Anyways.
In his free-for-download game "the shadow of yesterday" (http://www.anvilwerks.com/?The-Shadow-of-Yesterday), wich I haven´t played but find to be really inspiring, Clinton R. Nixon lets players refresh their characters "pools" by doing a big let-go. You want to refresh your "vigor"? Have fun, vigorosly. Refreshing instinct is having fun instinctly. To quote the relevant bits:

Whenever a pool is not at its full level, it can be refreshed, restoring it to its full level by the character performing an in-game action.
Vigor is refreshed whenever your character engages in an act of physical exertion (including physical abuse, such as drugs, drinking, staying out all night) with another character, specifically for the intent of enjoying yourself.
Instinct is refreshed whenever your character engages in an act of social pleasure (examples: a date, going to a party, playing a game of chance) with another character.
Reason is refreshed whenever your character engages in an act of intellectual stimulation (examples: a night at the opera, a philosophical debate, playing a game of skill) with another another.

Both of those two suggestions sound like similar examples of each other, to me.  They also sound good - I've been thinking too linear on this thing, and it's really the suggestions from forum-goers here which have helped loosen the game up.

Actually I don´t see how your system differs from Hit Points. You have 25 HP, they are called Health Points, and every five of them, there is a fluffy thing where you lose some lucidity; also, gaining back one Lucidity point would be regaining 5 HP. You hit the last of your HP, you´re out of the game. I think you´ve got (D&D) hit points, what, please tell me, would be the difference?

What if life was just one losing battle and the more lucid you got the more your "powers" slip away. You could also have it so that lucidity can never be regained and you permanently lose the 5 hit points.
Regards, Seth

What's in a dream? This is a great idea and could lead to other interesting avenues. Group therapy in a cyberspace environment? Criminal rehabilitation? Non-physical wars? Hmmm....

I've attempted lucid dreaming and its difficult to stay in the dream and have perfect control. When I let loose and go along for the ride then I continue to dream. As soon as I attempt to control the details of the environment, then I wake up.

I like the idea of having tokens that you move around. That seems more fluid and chaotic where anything could happen. Using the stepped tally system is very structured and mechanical. It takes away from the delicious dreamy center.

It looks as if you have two extremes with loss in the center. Lucidity | Loss | Obscurity. The tokens of consciousness move around based on what happens in reality and fantasy. The number 25 has some significance?!?! so use that as the power of the mind. Initially the person has the majority of the points in Lucidity. This establishes a state of reality in the waking world. When the tragic event occurs then the points shift from Lucidity to Loss. Having most of the points in Loss puts the person into a weakened state--emotionally and physically. If the event was extremely powerful (8 points maybe) then 2 points move farther, taking the mind into Obscurity. Having the majority of points in Obscurity produces the dreaming, fantastic realm.

Originally, the tokens move because the person has Loss, denies it and then it moves to the fantasy arena. The same can happen in the dream world. A person receives damage then the token moves from Obscurity to Loss. Here's the interesting part: if the person does not accept what is happening, tries to rationalize it then those points can move from Loss to Lucidity. Denial of the fantasy world makes you Lucid. Acceptance of the Loss and working through maintains you in the dream state. I imagine the purpose of this dream world is to work through the original event that put the person here. If that event crops up in the dream world and the dreamer overcomes it then potentially the tokens move from Loss to Lucidity.

As said in another posting, use the tokens in the Lucidity | Loss | Obscurity to determine the effectiveness, power and health. Lucidity indicates control and purpose. Loss shows damage and stun. Obscurity is strength and raw power in the dream world. Examples:

Lucidity  |  Loss  |  Obscurity
    18          2              5                      Aware and very creative
    16          5              4                      Conscious, with recent tragedy, fantasizing about the good times
    10          9              6                      Distracted, focused on tragedy, thinking of "what if?"
    5          15            5                      Emotionally distraught, completely incoherent
    5          11            9                      Very upset about something, not really sure
    3            8            14                      Disturbed by what is happening yet feeling some comfort
    3            6            16                      At ease with bittersweet memories
    2            4            19                      Confident and carefree in the new world
    1            2            22                      Flowing and powerful, reckless and relentless
    2            8            15                      Strong but startled by the ensuing events
    4          12            9                      Can't believe this is happening, feeling weak
    6            9              10                    Determined to overcome this demon
    8            7              10                    Getting closer to the truth of the matter
    10          4              11                    A burst of renewed strength to finally slay this thing
    15          1              9                      It is done and finally can accept my loss and the denial of it all
    22          1              2                      I feel better and think I'll write an original RPG about the dream I just had!

Time for bed. Maybe I'll dream about this!

This idea of preludetotheend

What if life was just one losing battle and the more lucid you got the more your "powers" slip away.

When I let loose and go along for the ride then I continue to dream. As soon as I attempt to control the details of the environment, then I wake up.

Hi Keith,

So your game is about people who have a sense of loss and are escaping this loss through a shared dream?

I think a neat idea if you are using a sort of pseudo hit points might be to reverse the way that type of typical system works. Why have normal physical things that damage you in a dream? If you are tying to escape loss, what if it is situations that force you to remember or address that loss is combat and can hurt you? What if instead of physical things doing damage to you, it's situations where your loss is brought up. If you face the situation you are pushed away from the dream, if you run away from the situation you become more powerful in the dream.

For instance, I make a character who has an issue with losing my child to a serial killer. In the dream I come across my child being abducted. If I face the situation and successfully challenge it then I am pushed away from the dream back towards reality as I'm starting to deal with my loss. I also become weaker in the dream which may make it harder to face other issues of loss that I have. If I run from it I'm embracing the dream and become mechanically stronger in the dream, however the more I embrace the dream the more I risk becoming lost in it and becoming catatonic in reality.

I'll get to the Q&A in a sec - but first, I think we're on to something, here.  This post is long, way longer than I thought it would be.

I've integrated the point-based resolution system into a chart idea I devised with lots of help from the suggestions given here.  It makes the process a lot simpler, I think.  However, this is just a basic idea, thus far.

How it works is you take a blank sheet of computer paper.  In one corner, write the name of your loss (also known as your Tragedy).  In each of the other corners, you write the name of your strong, intimate connections that existed in your real life - things like friends that helped you through the hard times, family that let you stay with them, etc.  Write one (or one group) in each remaining corner, so that all four corners are filled.  These three intimate connections become NPCs within the dream world.

Now, put ten small tokens in each corner - pennies, scraps of paper, whatever - so that you'll have 40 total, on the paper.  These tokens represent the emotional investment you put into each connection (including your Tragedy).  No tokens in a connection's corner means you two are on awful terms, and may even hate each other, while 20 tokens may mean that you and that connection would trust each other with your life.

In the middle of the paper, write the word "Irregularities".  An Irregularity is an inconsistency with the dream world as you see it.  If something goes against your definition of how the world should go, you get an Irregularity.  Too many irregularities, and your brain gets confused, and wakes you from the dream, thus ending your stay in the Neverwake dream world.  It's the equivalent of character death in other RPGs.

This is your chart.  Whenever you have to check for an action that might have a chance for failure, such as a skill check of some sort, to see if you accomplish something, you spend some of these tokens.  This is pretty much the same as the point system I had going in the thread mentioned above, except we've just transplanted it onto this here chart.  Here's a quick summary so you don't have to go check that other thread: instead of spending points, spend tokens.  Start with three tokens, the Base for any action or skill check.  Next, the GM decides what difficulties are associated with this action.  The GM adds an additional token to the Base for each complication.  After that, the player committing the action declares all the possible bonuses and benefits he would receive towards the action.

(For example: Dag the goblin wants to fish for some food.  Normally we'd only spend tokens on more dramatic occasions, but we'll allow for an exception.  So Dag wants to fish.  This costs 3 tokens to start with - what we call our Base.  Now, the GM decides which complications are involved with this, and assigns each individual complication a token which is added to the cost.  The GM knows that the fish here are large and strong, compared to the frail goblin, so that makes it harder, and earns Dag another token (+1).  Also, Dag's fishing pole is merely a stick with a length of thread tied to it, so that's another token (+1).  To make matters even worse, predatory fish are scaring all the easily-catchable fish away, so that's yet another token (+1).  So that's three tokens to start with, plus three additional tokens for all those complications.  It now costs six tokens!  However, Dag's player says that Dag is hungry, and therefore extra determined to catch a fish, so we take away a token for that (-1).  Also, Dag is using an enchanted bait that draws fish near, so take another token away (-1).  That leaves us with four tokens.  To catch a fish to eat, Dag will have to spend four tokens.)

These tokens can be taken from any corner you choose, even taken from several different corners.  One from each corner, two from one corner, one from another, one from another, all four from one corner - however you choose.

Now, about that big word "Irregularities" in the middle of your paper.  If you encounter such an irregularity, as defined above, you must move one token from your Tragedy's corner (and only your Tragedy's corner!) to the middle of the paper by the word Irregularities.  Have too many tokens here, and you're gone (not yet sure what amount will cause this.)  This causes strain between you and your Tragedy.  (Another thing I'm working with is to have it so that if you have no tokens in your Tragedy's section, and the last one went to the Irregularities pile, you're gone.  Don't know if I want that yet, though).

So how do you get tokens back?  When you make a character, you create a fantasy animal of your choice to represent your character within the dream world.  In can be whatever you want it to be - even just a normal human.  It's essentially a representation of your inner soul and how you feel on the inside, an avatar of your character.  Your character will always be this in the dream world.  Be it a satyr, unicorn, knight, witch, whatever - as long as it fits along with the medieval theme.  This avatar is called a Myth.  You'll give a certain number of Traits to your Myth which describe it, things like "Scheming and Underhanded," or "Obsessed with Nature".  To get tokens back, you roleplay one of your Traits, and gain three tokens to put in any corner or to divide among the corners as you choose.  I've kept this the only way to regain tokens so far, in order to encourage roleplaying your Myth, and to keep the bonds between you and your connections fragile,  I feel it'll also make dramatic actions that require a token expenditure to be more tense.

How's that shaping up so far?  It's far from perfect, but it makes the mechanics simpler, and helps deliver the angst and drama that the game calls for.  It also, I feel, accurately portrays the dream world and it's tough choices.  Irregularities can be caused by trying to change the world too much, and by altering and going against what's there - so if you just go along, you'll be okay.  You may suffer, but, if you're willing to endure that for what you get, that's your choice.

I think this calls for a quick explanation of the plan of the game - you have this dream world where you can get the one major thing you loved back.  You can only have this while you dream.  Initially, your character wants this to happen.  They see no downside to being around what they loss, having it again.  However, as they continue their adventures, and see the strain that it's having on their other connections, the connections that were always there for them when their lost love couldn't be, then they'll have to make the choice - stay with the one thing they love more than anything (keep dreaming), or finally let go and learn to move on, and accept what you do have, and learn to love it too (wake up).  Yes, waking up causes your character to removed from the game, but some stories shouldn't drag on forever.  Sometimes choices have to be made.  It's really about the choices you make and the realizations you come across on your way to making this choice.

Now, questions!

Jona's recent suggestion, with a few tweaks, is my runner-up in case this particular choice falls through.  Along the lines of becoming more substantial and powerful the more you try to transcend the dream - which is what you don't want to happen, not immediately anyway - maybe something like, the more Irregularities you suffer, the more you start to see how wrong the dream world is, and the more you're able to further alter it to try to "change" it.  Like, you gain X number of Irregularities, and things appear different - what seemed real and plausible before now just gives you headaches, and the more you find that the fantastic magic and enchantment of the world no longer works on you - and right as you get up to that last Irregularity, you see that the entire world is just entertainment from your brain, nothing more.  It seems more of a supplementary rule that colors things more than directly applies, but it still makes good sense.

So your game is about people who have a sense of loss and are escaping this loss through a shared dream?

I think a neat idea if you are using a sort of pseudo hit points might be to reverse the way that type of typical system works. Why have normal physical things that damage you in a dream? If you are tying to escape loss, what if it is situations that force you to remember or address that loss is combat and can hurt you?

Hi Keith,

That does seem like it would approach my offer some. I think I was missing what you meant by dreaming. I was seeing "Dreamscape" when it seems you are shooting more for medieval, "What Dreams May Come." If you haven't seen the later I'd highly recommend it as it seems to have similarities to what you are going for.

I really like the idea of using four corners for the character sheet.

I hate to possibly cause you to type irregularities more, but I'm curious about them. (Perhaps you could copy and paste the word? *grins*) What causes irregularities? Are they caused by collision with other dreamers desires? Is there something deeper that causes them? If you grow in power as irregularities come up, can you explore the "why" of Neverwake?

I'm also curious, if my character spends time with someone, how real is that person? Say using my example from before, my character spends time with the daughter he lost to the serial killer. How real is she? Maybe this is something you want to keep ambigious, which is fine, but I am curious.

I hate to possibly cause you to type irregularities more, but I'm curious about them. (Perhaps you could copy and paste the word? *grins*) What causes irregularities? Are they caused by collision with other dreamers desires? Is there something deeper that causes them? If you grow in power as irregularities come up, can you explore the "why" of Neverwake?

I'm also curious, if my character spends time with someone, how real is that person? Say using my example from before, my character spends time with the daughter he lost to the serial killer. How real is she? Maybe this is something you want to keep ambiguous, which is fine, but I am curious.