Topic: Comments wanted on Initiative System ideas.
Started by: RobMuadib
Started on: 4/15/2002
Board: Indie Game Design
On 4/15/2002 at 9:38pm, RobMuadib wrote:
Comments wanted on Initiative System ideas.
Hi all
I originally posted this on the rpg-create list at yahoo but didn't get any response, it was after the thread that had inspired it had wound down. It got lost in the shuffle of the flamiest part of a current thread. Still wanting some feedback I decided to post it here, even through it is a bit more technical and crunchy than what usually gets posted.
I happen to be working on my combat system at the moment, and am
working on the basic combat system, which uses an abstract initiative
and movement system. I currently have a system similar to
Shadowrun's. Your initiative is determined by two factors. First you
have a Phase Time, which is determined by your characters base speed,
modified downward for Encumbrance. Second, all characters have a
Combat Sense skill, well two, one for Fire combat, and one for Melee.
Based on average of Agility & Perception Aptitudes for Melee and Perception and Cool Aptitudes for Fire combat, plus your Proficiency in the "Combat Sense" skill.
You then take this score as the Dicestep used to determine an
Initiative Result Score. So average character with no combat training or
experience would have Combat Sense of 5, and would roll 2 and half
six sided dice. Green troops would have between 7-9, Veteran between
10-12, and Elite 13-15,. (Dice are mitigated open-ended, with 6s
counting as zero, so average is around 2.5 per die.)On a roll of all
6's, your character has frozen or otherwise hesitated and gets no
actions that combat Round.
So each 3 second combat round you calculate a Initiative Result Score for
all characters. Round is counted down in initiative segments starting
at highest Initiative Total. You get Action Phase starting on your
Initiative Total, with additional ones at current initiative segment
minus your Phase time, with turn ending on Segment 0, and no action
phases on 0.
You can see an example of how this works out in my combat example I
posted on my website at
http://www.wildmuse.com/games/docs/CombatExample-ATasteOfThingsToCome.txt. Those wanting more info on the resolution system can check out a pdf of the draft version of the GC rules system deal at http://www.wildmuse.com/games/docs/tmw-gc-rulessystem-040702.pdf.
Now in the sample combat I liked the back and forth nature of the
initiative the way it worked. However, it does occur to me that it
would behoove me to streamline the system by reducing dice rolls.
However, I am kind of on the fence. On the one hand, I had the idea
of having characters subtract 1/2 (rounded up) of the total of their
Wound Ratings (enough damage in one blow to exceed Wound Threshold,
kind of like Earthdawn's Wounds) from their Dicestep during combat.
Such that a character could be rendered unable to engage effectively
in combat even if they are otherwise "up" (i.e passed their
incapicatation saves.) So characters could be taken out due to
Impairment, without necessarily being knocked unconcious or killed
(Think of the gravely injured bastards lying around moaning and
holding their guts in crying for their moms or whatever.). (Current idea is to have it reduce your
Move/Lift/Carry Hand-Damage by half as well. Which works well because
of way Trait Score works on log scale.)
I was considering a general Impairment based Difficulty Modifer to
your acts from Wounds as well. But this seems a bit to harsh given
the reduced initiative and weakness effects. I am more partial to the
Reduced Initiative action & weakness effects and ignoring the general
impairment effects(more because they would only need to be worked in-
between combat rounds, instead of an extra DM for every action).
Though I do have a Shock effect penalty DM after recieving a hit, so
it's not like there is no direct/immediate effect of damage.
Anyway, that is the shape of the system as I conceived it (though the
Wound Impairments didn't really come up during the sample combat as
the bad guys didn't last long:) )
Alright, so I like the above described effects, but as Bradd was
discussing earlier, that does increase book-keeping and rolling.
The other idea was to turn it into a Cyclic Initiative system as
Bradd talked about. I.e. you roll an Initiative Total once at
beginning of combat. Then stick with it through combat. Now this
could work with my Impairment penalties above, but instead of
reducing dicestep, take it as a direct penalty to your Initiative
Total, so your Initiative total would probably go down over course of
combat.
Now the only other problem I have with this is how I envisioned the
suprise system working. Basically, characters make a Perception Test
or whatever to notice the ambush, if they fail, they suffer the
amount they failed by as a penalty to their Initiative Score/Dicestep
on the first Combat Round. This means that if character's really flub
up or they have low Combat Sense scores, they could end up having
thier dicestep reduced to 0 or less. Which would give them a
Initiative Total of 0, meaning that they basically freeze or
otherwise when the ambush is sprung.
This is fine for round to round initiative, obviously however, it is
rather harsh to be stuck with a 0 Initiative total for a whole
combat, so I would need some option to recover and reroll initiative.
This works into Bradds talk about getting to Reroll. So maybe have a
Regroup maneuver. Maybe a full Round for character to get his
bearings and then gain a bonus to your Initiative Score/Dicestep
based on a Complementary Coolness Roll. (Idea of character ducking
out of way to get his courage up and gather his thoughts before
jumping back into combat.)
Hmm, maybe I will make the Cyclic Initiative an optional rule to
simplify combat, but keep Regroup idea.
Anyway, what do you guys think, any suggestions or recommendations. I
think my Single/Cyclic Initative Total as an optional rule would be a
good compromise, especially for mooks and other extra characters.
Thanks
Rob
On 4/15/2002 at 9:42pm, Henry Fitch wrote:
RE: Comments wanted on Initiative System ideas.
Broken link! Broken link!
On 4/15/2002 at 9:54pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Comments wanted on Initiative System ideas.
I htink that was supposed to be:
http://www.wildmuse.com/games/docs/CombatExample-ATasteOfThingsToCome.txt
Mike
On 4/26/2002 at 5:49am, RobMuadib wrote:
Thread Rengineered
Hey, I edited this thread with some more pointed questions regarding ideas for my Initiative System, feedback would be appreciated.
Thanks
Rob
On 4/26/2002 at 1:32pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Comments wanted on Initiative System ideas.
Hi Rob,
I don't know if you've seen any of these threads:
The 4 steps of action
What is IIEC?
I know it's all this hairy theory, but I want to nail down your options, as you see them, in those terms. Then I'll be able to make sense.
Best,
Ron
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 774
Topic 1273
On 4/26/2002 at 8:33pm, RobMuadib wrote:
RE: Comments wanted on Initiative System ideas.
Ron Edwards wrote:
I don't know if you've seen any of these threads:
The 4 steps of action
What is IIEC?
I know it's all this hairy theory, but I want to nail down your options, as you see them, in those terms. Then I'll be able to make sense.
Ron
Read through the threads so I will explain the mechanic in terms of IIEC.
Well, where to start. The basic initiative system is meant to be more abstract and "narrative", at least in terms of character Intent.
Thus on a character's action Phase, the player states intent in terms of basic maneuvers. For hand weapons, these are Strikes, broken down into Quick(Harder to defend against, 1/2's PEN/DMG rating), the standard Strike(standard , and Long Strike (Doubles PEN/DMG rating, reduces your defense.) Then there are various types/ranges of moves, Step, 1/2 Move, Full Move, Total Move. Then there is Parry and Dodge, and Full Dodge, with the former two being abortable too. Fire combat uses Fire, Aim, Full Dodges, Dive For Cover, etc.
Oh, if a character with a higher Initiative has held his Action Phase, he has a chance to interrupt your Action Phase after you declare your intent. Each player then makes a Combat Sense Test to see if he was able to pre-empt the other character to determine order of actions. For character's with Action Phases on the same segment, they do the declare intent from lowest Combat Sense to highest Combat Sense, then resolve from highest to lowest. If two are tied, then do contest as above.
So character forms a basic Intent. Initiation Stage is determining Acting Score, The Opposing Score of the Target, is he in range, etc. It is also at this time that the player must announce the use of any Hero Points. Basically, the rule is that once the dice have been rolled, shit has happened.
Then you execute rolling dice, rolling any active defenses, determine Armor penetration, Damage Dealt, and the Target applies damage effects. All fairly standard.
The other important thing is that characters often have more than one Action Phase during a turn, based on their Initiative Score and Phase Time, as I descibed earlier. And, it is possible for a character to freeze/hesistate and recieve no Action Phases during an Action Round (3 seconds btw.)
Ok, so that is the basic method. My main areas of contention are with regards to handling time on the mechanics to determining an Initiative Result Score. At first I planned to have character roll to determine an Initiative Result Score each Action Round. Thus determining how quickly they can formulate plans and act on them each round.
As I said, in the sample I wrote up, I liked the back and forth nature of the combat, especialy in regards to forcing characters to go on the defensive and abort their next Action Phase in order to parry or dodge, or allowing faster character to take a defensive stance and wait for other character to attack and then launching their counter attack.
I also like the "riposte/counter-attack" option I included in Parries, in that if character making an active defense does well enough in comparison to the attack launched, he gains an opportunity counter-attack.
The second major question I had was in regards to applying Impariment penalties (typically caused by taking a Wound from a heavy hit.) Because of the way the Trait Scale works, The Result Scores can be easily applied and converted between things. So I though of having Impairment affect a character by weakening him, With like 1/2 the Wound Rating subtracting directy from his Move & H-DMG Scores, and secondly, 1/2 the wound rating subtracting from the Dicestep he uses to roll Initiative.
This has the effect that as character suffers more injury, he will most likely not be able act and react as fast (though system does use an mitigated open-ended mechanic, but on average he will slow down.) Also as you remove dice, it also increases the likelihood that the character will freeze or hesistate or otherwise be too dazed to take effective action during a Round. Lastly, if he is pushed to 0 Dicestep for his initiative because of wound penalties. He will have succumbed to fear, panic, shock, and pain such that he can no longer engage in combat.
Since more combat experience characters have more dice, this is less likely to happen to them unless they are seriously injured(At which point you have the guy holding his guts in calling for his mom, or a medic or something.), while a green or non-combatant character could fold due to a relatively minor wound, without necessarily being Incapicatated or Killed. (Think of rookie cop slumped on floor looking at blood on his hand from where he got shot.)
I like this better because it would only come up once per round, whereas applying a Wound Rating based Difficulty Modifier would require an extra mod to handled during one or more Action Phases during each round.
However, the trade off is a roll for every round of combat. Thus I considered a "Cyclic" initiative Method. You still roll for Initiative at beginning of combat, but stick with that through the entire combat. Saves on handling time, but makes the combat much more predictable and clockwork like. I could still apply penalties, just subtract them from your Initiative Result Score as you go. However, you run into problem of character who rolls a 0 on Initiative. Being frozen for entire combat is no fun. So I came up with the Regroup "manuever" idea. Duck out of combat for full round, you can make a Cool Test and use bonus from Test to add to your Initiative when you reroll. (Which would represent gathering your wits, and maybe getting a plan together.)
Oh yeah, one more point, Planned to handle Suprise such that if character fails roll, he suffers penalty equal to the amount he failed roll by to the Dicestep of his Initiative score that round. Which I like, and guess could work with both methods, just subtract penalties and do one roll that way.
My feeling was to have the Single Initiative as an Optional method for handling large numbers of characters, and stick with the round to round method.
Anyway, those are the questions I had, more about Handling time and feel I guess.
Thanks for your interest.
Rob
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 774
Topic 1273
On 4/26/2002 at 8:50pm, Zak Arntson wrote:
RE: Comments wanted on Initiative System ideas.
RobMuadib wrote: Well, where to start. The basic initiative system is meant to be more abstract and "narrative", at least in terms of character Intent.
After reading your system, I don't see how even the Initiative is narrative. Do you mean Narrativist? Or non-jargon? In any case, can you provide links (if available) for the rest of your game? Otherwise, this is just a combat system to me, and not an RPG! I need context!
On 4/26/2002 at 8:55pm, Ron Edwards wrote:
RE: Comments wanted on Initiative System ideas.
Hey,
I'm pretty sure Rob was saying "narratively," in the sense of just talking.
Rob, what you've described sounds very much to me like Cyberpunk, which itself is a fairly smooth blend of GURPS and Champions in terms of who gets to go when.
I'm not sure what to say about handling time for such systems; by definition, it's high. Search time can be lowered in a variety of ways, mainly by keeping math out of the process, but handling time is going to be a pain.
The real problem, though, it seems to me, is that you've got that "freeze-frame" thing going, as I described in the "4 steps of action" thread, which has a lot of inherent problems in the enjoyment of play. Aborting/pre-empting are just fixes for the problems.
Are you sure you want to go this route at all? A number of very effective alternatives are available, many of which could be kept true to the Sim goal.
Best,
Ron
On 4/26/2002 at 9:43pm, RobMuadib wrote:
RE: Comments wanted on Initiative System ideas.
Zak Arntson wrote:
After reading your system, I don't see how even the Initiative is narrative. Do you mean Narrativist? Or non-jargon? In any case, can you provide links (if available) for the rest of your game? Otherwise, this is just a combat system to me, and not an RPG! I need context!
I mean narrative in that the player develops an idea of what he wants to happen via what his character does, but not narrative with a big N.
As for the rest of the game, I have a few rules sections written up so far, but the rest of it exists primarily as several design notes texts or ideas in my head. Actual documents I have are tentative promo blurb/concept statement, which I will include in this post to give you a feel for the thrust of the game. WhichI talk about it some in the TMW: Rewards and the Thrust of the System thread, Here.
I also have a bit of the draft of some of my Universe mythos stuff in a pdf at my website. I also have the Rules System which presents the rules core, which at this time is a very dry rigorous document that I came down out of the mountain with, I plan to rewrite it to make it easier to learn.
The core rules system document can be found at
Game Concepts: Rules System PDF
The draft Universe mythos stuff can be found at
Game Concepts: Universe PDF
Here is the promoage blurb overview of the system:
The Million Worlds: Chronicles Of The Eternal Cycle (TM)
A limitless universe to be shared, created, and explored by you.
In The Million Worlds: Chronicles Of The Eternal Cycle, the players collaborate
to create all the settings, guises, props & FX of a world and then stage their
own Chronicles within the worlds they create. The worlds the players create all
share a common universe, called The Million Worlds. This universe follows an
eternal cycle of creation and destruction, called the Turning, during which the
worlds, called Spheres, move into proximity to each other. Travel is possible
between these Spheres during such conjunctions.
The Million Worlds...
The spirits of the ancient Omyrii awaken, long since scattered amongst The
Million Worlds, in a time long forgotten. They find themselves reincarnated among
the manifold worlds of Man, the dreams of their primordial civilization haunting
them. Driving them always is the yearning to return from whence they
came, the great city of Midian. Their goal, to gather tribute for the
Ubiqnomen, that they might rebuild the Endless Temple, sacred to Alphain, the
creator and all-god.
Chronicles...
With The Million Worlds: Chronicles of the Eternal Cycle (TM), the players come
together to form a company, much like a small theatre company. Working together
the players all collaborate, sharing duties and roles, in staging a production.
The players use the Design Architectures of the game system to create the
settings, props, guises, and FX of the worlds in which their Chronicles
are set. The players then take part in the performance of their production,
serving as actor, director, stage hand, & audience to their enacted Chronicle.
The players can also use the rules to stage set-pieces of their own design,
perhaps enacting a great battle scene.
The Eternal Cycle...
The Million Worlds: Chronicles of the Eternal Cycle offers a multi-faceted game
experience to it's players, providing them with the means to not only explore a
game setting, in a wider variety of roles, but to come together as a group and
create the worlds they will explore. Not only that, but all of the player's
Companies world-wide will be able to share their creations online, adding to the
games shared universe, The Million Worlds. They can do this by contributing to
the Ubiqnomen, the online database of items, creatures, vehicles, weapons,
powers and Spheres created by the players.
The Million Worlds: Chronicles Of The Eternal Cycle (TM), currently in
development, is the flagship product of Wild Muse Games. It is currently slated
for a Janurary 2003 release. To learn more about The Million Worlds: Chronicles
Of The Eternal Cycle (tm) you can visit the Wild Muse Games website, at
http://www.wildmuse.com/games/
Rob Muadib
Kwisatz Haderach of Wild Muse Games
robmuadib@wildmuse.com
Wild Muse Games
(C) 2002 Wild Muse Games, Robert A Mosley
Thanks for your interest,
Rob
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 1980
On 4/26/2002 at 9:57pm, RobMuadib wrote:
RE: Comments wanted on Initiative System ideas.
Ron Edwards wrote:
Rob, what you've described sounds very much to me like Cyberpunk, which itself is a fairly smooth blend of GURPS and Champions in terms of who gets to go when.
I'm not sure what to say about handling time for such systems; by definition, it's high. Search time can be lowered in a variety of ways, mainly by keeping math out of the process, but handling time is going to be a pain.
Ron Edwards wrote:
The real problem, though, it seems to me, is that you've got that "freeze-frame" thing going, as I described in the "4 steps of action" thread, which has a lot of inherent problems in the enjoyment of play. Aborting/pre-empting are just fixes for the problems.
Are you sure you want to go this route at all? A number of very effective alternatives are available, many of which could be kept true to the Sim goal.
Ron
I am rereading the IIEE thread stuff, though I didn't really see the alternatives of which you were speaking the first time I read it.
I am not committed to this particular initiative system at present, so I would be happy to consider other methods. Only thing I didn't explicate system is that Combat system, as planned, has two layers, Basic and Tactical. They both use the same resolution and damage systems and such, however their initiative and move systems are different.
The basic combat initiative system is the abstracted one presented above.
The second is built on a 5 impulse turn with near simulatenous action within each Impulse, with actions measured in Action Counts, and explicit hex-map based movement. Your classic battle-map skirmishing mini-game, the Initiative System for this is primarily ripped off from Phoenix Command. As the name implies it is meant to be a Tactical mini-game for war-mongering gear-heads like myself, with fun spin-off options like Mecha and vehicle battles(What can I say, I played lots of Battle-Tech when I was younger:) .)
But, given the low-high detail option, I would not be adverse to making the basic system simpler or more streamline. The only thing I was trying to do is create alogical connection between the two in terms of how action pacing is derived. Hence the Phase Time/Combat Sense usage in the basic system.
Anyway, I will read through thos other threads, and ask for more input if I still need regarding alternative methods.
Thanks
Rob
On 4/26/2002 at 10:08pm, RobMuadib wrote:
RE: Comments wanted on Initiative System ideas.
Ron Edwards wrote:
The real problem, though, it seems to me, is that you've got that "freeze-frame" thing going, as I described in the "4 steps of action" thread, which has a lot of inherent problems in the enjoyment of play. Aborting/pre-empting are just fixes for the problems.
Oh one point I forgot to mention in regards to the Freeze Frame effect. I for one don't totally despise the freeze-frame effect. I guess I am far too influenced by Anime and such, where they focus in on the character with streaming blurring background and such as he makes an attack, and then focus on the effect on the target, distorting space and time to do so, as it were. Maybe it's too many comics and video games influencing me. Also, I think the way my damage mechanics work that it reinforces this Action Snap-Shot effect. So there is certainly that influence on my part.
Rob