It's been quite some time, but the other night I started roleplaying again. 

The evening began as a social gathering with two friends I've played with before and a friend with whom I've never played, but who has roleplaying experience.  After dinner, we sat around and reminisced about old times, and, of course, our past roleplaying games came up.  I reminded everyone that I still had my books and that we could play right then.  It actually took a moment to sink in.  (We'd all been away from each other for quite some time...)  So we decided, enthusiastically, that it was time to begin.

Besides me, we had Brian (as GM), Shaun, and Tony.  (We play Star Wars D20, btw.)

Brian or I am usually the GM, but I think we both felt some reluctance this time (probably because we both wanted to play).  We rolled for it and he was instated as GM.  He began by asking us if we had any particular characters we wanted to use (because he didn't have any particular idea of his own at the moment, which he admitted to me later) and we all were very non-committal because we had no burning ideas of our own. 

Eventually I suggested we all play against our usual type of character.  (Why?  I'm not sure.)  So I created a mechanic-pilot who has difficult interacting with people and doesn't know one end of the blaster from the other.  I called him Corrin Tusk.  Shaun created a mystic force-user who uses only primitive weapons named Telyon and Tony decided to to be his younger brother without force powers.  His character was named Del.

Without really deciding hwo we got there, we (the players) decided that are characters were stuck on Nar Shadda, trying to work for a living.  And that's when the shooting started...

Telyon and Del were bouncers at a cantina that Corrin frequented.  Since business was slow the three fraternized a bit and became friends. Corrin was working freelance fixing ships for various captains that arrived in that sector.  Oftentimes Teylon and Del would come along, when they weren't working, to watch their friend's back.  In return he allowed them to move into his larger, nicer quarters.

One slow day at the cantina, the three friends were dicing when a large, physical alien entered the bar.  (A Devaronian, for those who care.)  He sat down not far from the trio of PCs.  Eventually Corrin noticed that the alien kept glancing in his direction, so he got up and went over to the stranger.

"What do you want?" Corrin asked bluntly.

The alien was clearly nervous, "I have a job for you... if, you want it though, I need you right away."

Corrin was obviously suspicious, but he took the bait, "Alright, lead on."

He nodded to his two friends as he tossed them the dice and headed out the door.  The side door.  Telyon was also suspicous, so after a moment he followed Corrin and the alien.  He opened the side door to a desperate scene.  Advancing on a cornered Corrin were two more hefty aliens (Gran).  The first alien stood a little ways off with a smug look on his face.  But, he paled when Telyon yelled and charged the two thugs.

Del heard the yell and came busting out shortly thereafter.  Corrin pulled his blaster and promptly dropped it. Teylon engaged the thug closest to him.  The other thug charged into Corrin and dropped him with his club.  Corrin lost conscious for a brief moment. 

Del helped Telyon dispatch the first thug, when Corrin woke up and smoked the second thug with the blaster he had fallen on.  It was at this point that the first alien made a break for it. 

So I made a decision.  Clearly my character wasn't the fighting type, he'd definitely gotten lucky with the blaster shot, and he was still woozy.  I had him sit up and watch the fleeing alien.  And, for some reason, the other two thought that I was the leader.  They stayed put as well.  So we had the characters go back into the bar.  And nothing else happened.  Brian was clearly stuck because he expected me to engage in my usual aggressive style of play.  We had to stop, because he wasn't prepared for this occurence. 

He said to me later, "You just sat there and let the plot run away!  Had you caught him, you might have got him to talk."  And, indeed, had I not decided to play my character the way I thought he would react, we would have kept playing.  Now, to be fair, this was our first time back.  Given time to prepare, Brian would have had other adventures and mysteries ready for us to explore.  But, at that moment, our characters were still really two-dimensional and so we stumbled into a blind alley.  He thought he could hook me, but when that failed he had no more hooks for anyone.  I'm not so sure the plot ran away, but the game definitely did!

I'd love comments and observations about this session.  And please, ask me some questions. 

I guess I'd like to ask you how you thought the game should have gone.  What you (the player) would have liked to see.  What you think would be neat for your character to accomplish or experience.  Maybe, if you were GM, what you would have done with their characters.  Just broad strokes, really, nothing specific. 

ErrathofKosh wrote:
So I made a decision.  Clearly my character wasn't the fighting type, he'd definitely gotten lucky with the blaster shot, and he was still woozy.  I had him sit up and watch the fleeing alien.  And, for some reason, the other two thought that I was the leader.  They stayed put as well.  So we had the characters go back into the bar.  And nothing else happened.  Brian was clearly stuck because he expected me to engage in my usual aggressive style of play.  We had to stop, because he wasn't prepared for this occurence. 

He said to me later, "You just sat there and let the plot run away!  Had you caught him, you might have got him to talk."  And, indeed, had I not decided to play my character the way I thought he would react, we would have kept playing.  Now, to be fair, this was our first time back.  Given time to prepare, Brian would have had other adventures and mysteries ready for us to explore.  But, at that moment, our characters were still really two-dimensional and so we stumbled into a blind alley.  He thought he could hook me, but when that failed he had no more hooks for anyone.  I'm not so sure the plot ran away, but the game definitely did!

Hey Johnathon,
  Well, I dunno about your group, but if you have a good tactical mind, maybe a little table talk could have cleared this up. Just saying, hey, wouldn;t your character want to know what this guy was doing? Might have solved this for both you and Brian.
  Even if your character is not the group leader, you, the player, can be. And it might not be impossible for your character to be the leader, sounds like he is the brains of the operation and the landlord, lol
  The GM did the best they could, most "heroic/adventurous" would want to know what happened to them. I guess you guys could have asked around different contacts and found out if it was a random act of violence or someone has it in for one of you three...

How long is it since any of you last played an RPG?

Hey Jonathan,

So, to clarify, all the stuff until the alien walks in was framed by the players mutually, right? Or did you have to "play it out"?

Yes, I'm curious about your expectations for how this game "should have went" too. Do y'all seem to have more fun when you're rolling dice and savoring the victory, or are you more interested ending up with some sort of thematically-interesting story?

Right now, the only problem is see is that you resolved the first Bang, and nobody was interested in playing more.

ErrathofKosh wrote: He said to me later, "You just sat there and let the plot run away!

Well, I don't know if I think it's necessarily illusionism.  There's a difference between not wanting people to jump the rails and simply being caught flat-footed by an unexpected turn of events.

Another possible explanation is that Brian is sitting here thinking "Oh %#%^, I'm supposed to make up a plot on the spur of the moment.  Uh ... Uh ... He's jumped in the alley by thugs!  Now, while they're dealing with the thug I'll think up how the thug is going to react when they capture and interrogate ... what?  Wait!  They're letting the thug get away.  I've now got two seconds to figure out my next move.  Brain-freeze!"

If anything, it looks to me like Brian just needed to admit what everyone at the table knew ... that he'd had one thing in mind, and something else had happened, and now he's got nothing.  In his place I'd probably have just turned to Kosh and said "Okay.  Corrin knows who sent these guys.  Why are they after him?"  But that's me.

This is basically an "I agree with Tony" post.

One of the games I run has a player who does this sort of thing regularly and the running deal is, 'You can dud any scene you like, but you have to give me something back that I can riff off.' I can't and won't be solely responsible for keeping a character in the game.

So in your case, you dud the chase and that's cool. Were I the GM, I'd now be telling you that you owe me something to use as seed for improvising. The something can be obviously related to the abortive chase, like Tony's suggestion, or it can be a completely different thing, up to you. And those are the key words, up to you.

SR
--

I think this is a key part of the account "Brian was clearly stuck because he expected me to engage in my usual aggressive style of play.". He was appeared to be offerng a choice, but he really expected a certain result.

If anything, it looks to me like Brian just needed to admit what everyone at the table knew ... that he'd had one thing in mind, and something else had happened, and now he's got nothing.

Glendower wrote:
I guess I'd like to ask you how you thought the game should have gone.  What you (the player) would have liked to see.  What you think would be neat for your character to accomplish or experience.  Maybe, if you were GM, what you would have done with their characters.  Just broad strokes, really, nothing specific.

dindenver wrote:
Hey Johnathon,
  Well, I dunno about your group, but if you have a good tactical mind, maybe a little table talk could have cleared this up. Just saying, hey, wouldn’t your character want to know what this guy was doing? Might have solved this for both you and Brian.
  Even if your character is not the group leader, you, the player, can be. And it might not be impossible for your character to be the leader, sounds like he is the brains of the operation and the landlord, lol
  The GM did the best they could, most "heroic/adventurous" would want to know what happened to them. I guess you guys could have asked around different contacts and found out if it was a random act of violence or someone has it in for one of you three...

droog wrote:
How long is it since any of you last played an RPG?

Larry Lade wrote:
Hey Jonathan,

So, to clarify, all the stuff until the alien walks in was framed by the players mutually, right? Or did you have to "play it out"?

Yes, I'm curious about your expectations for how this game "should have went" too. Do y'all seem to have more fun when you're rolling dice and savoring the victory, or are you more interested ending up with some sort of thematically-interesting story?

Right now, the only problem is see is that you resolved the first Bang, and nobody was interested in playing more.

Callan S. wrote:
I had a recent experience, where well after a game a friend said on the phone "Well, there was more to that game but [disparaging tone]you guys took so long"
I couldn't articulate it at the time. But it was a sense of "Huh, the game that I thought was a nice bit of fun, actually went poorly, because [incredulous tone] we didn't arrive at some spot specified by you?"

In your play account, the term generally used is illusionism. Here it's a gentle type of illusionism...the GM doesn't force you, he just remembers how you normally act then sets up the adventure so the way you normally act will take you through it. It's sort of like "Pick a card, any card" when the GM is relying on the fact that you usually pick a blue card. When you pick a red one, he gets annoyed. Because that's the key with illusionist play - the GM appears to offer you a choice, but isn't interested in what you actually choose.

On the other hand though, illusionism is often adopted by GM's, because they think they have to offer certain choices, like pursue or head back to the bar. And those choices can lead to really boring results (sittin' in a bar) - so the GM decides to 'guide' the players.

Scene framing (often confused with railroading at first), is another method of getting around choices that lead to boring events. But I'm getting ahead of myself. How does this post sound so far?

TonyLB wrote:
Well, I don't know if I think it's necessarily illusionism.  There's a difference between not wanting people to jump the rails and simply being caught flat-footed by an unexpected turn of events.

Another possible explanation is that Brian is sitting here thinking "Oh %#%^, I'm supposed to make up a plot on the spur of the moment.  Uh ... Uh ... He's jumped in the alley by thugs!  Now, while they're dealing with the thug I'll think up how the thug is going to react when they capture and interrogate ... what?  Wait!  They're letting the thug get away.  I've now got two seconds to figure out my next move.  Brain-freeze!"

If anything, it looks to me like Brian just needed to admit what everyone at the table knew ... that he'd had one thing in mind, and something else had happened, and now he's got nothing.  In his place I'd probably have just turned to Kosh and said "Okay.  Corrin knows who sent these guys.  Why are they after him?"  But that's me.

Rob Carriere wrote:
This is basically an "I agree with Tony" post.

One of the games I run has a player who does this sort of thing regularly and the running deal is, 'You can dud any scene you like, but you have to give me something back that I can riff off.' I can't and won't be solely responsible for keeping a character in the game.

So in your case, you dud the chase and that's cool. Were I the GM, I'd now be telling you that you owe me something to use as seed for improvising. The something can be obviously related to the abortive chase, like Tony's suggestion, or it can be a completely different thing, up to you. And those are the key words, up to you.

Callan S. wrote:
I think this is a key part of the account "Brian was clearly stuck because he expected me to engage in my usual aggressive style of play.” He was appeared to be offering a choice, but he really expected a certain result.

If anything, it looks to me like Brian just needed to admit what everyone at the table knew ... that he'd had one thing in mind, and something else had happened, and now he's got nothing.

Well, to me that fits in the illusionism category. It's offering two boxes, but one of them is empty. That isn't a choice, IMO. Imagine playing a matrix inspired game, you choose the blue pill and suddenly the game ends. Why offer that choice, then? Just scene frame right past that "So you chose the red pill, of course, and…”

I get what your saying. Everything can be fixed in terms of how it's going to turn out, but how the PC's are going to turn out, that's the spine tingling question! In fact, it can be even more fun knowing as a player that the fight WILL be lost, yet your character, for some reason, still chooses to fight it. That's even more of a statement!

However, Brian said

"You just sat there and let the plot run away!

Alright, we've had a second session, which turned out much more like I remember.

The characters returned to quarters and spent the entire night paranoid and restless.  The next day they decided to leave town.  Of course, it's never that simple.  The alien reappeared with more thugs as the characters were taking the mass transit system to the spaceport.  A very satisfying fight ensued and my character was rendered unconscious.  Fortunately, the other two characters saved his bacon and were even able to capture the thug!  They interrogated him and learned that the whole fiasco was a result of a job my character had done awhile back.  So, after my character regained consciousness and some ability to walk, we visited the docking bay where the ship was still berthed.  We found everyone onbaord dead (after I used some technical skills to break and enter the place) and thus we've gained a ship and a mystery.

So, Brian managed to bring the "plot" back online and we began really digging our characters.  My character si quickly becoming a liability to the others in rough situations, but his technical abilities have proven invaluable at other times.  Thus, he both irritates the others and warrants protection.  I sat down and filled in a lot of holes in his background and I think Brian will probably begin to use the hooks I've provided him.

As for what Brian is interested in, I've thought about that. He is interested in our characters, but I also think he enjoys telling an interesting story, with interesting villians and unusual twists as well.  As far as that's concerned, we the players have little input, but when it comes to our characters, we choose how they deal with the situations they find themselves in. 

And I'm wondering, how dysfunctional is this type of play?

ErrathofKosh wrote:
And I'm wondering, how dysfunctional is this type of play?

Hi,

ErrathofKosh wrote: As for what Brian is interested in, I've thought about that. He is interested in our characters, but I also think he enjoys telling an interesting story, with interesting villians and unusual twists as well.  As far as that's concerned, we the players have little input, but when it comes to our characters, we choose how they deal with the situations they find themselves in. 

And I'm wondering, how dysfunctional is this type of play?

ErrathofKosh wrote:
And I'm wondering, how dysfunctional is this type of play?

ErrathofKosh wrote:
And I'm wondering, how dysfunctional is this type of play?

Glendower wrote:
A lot of this is illusionist play, from my understanding, and comparable to what most gaming falls under.  I'd still like to know what you would have wanted, or how you would have ran the game.  You didn't exactly answer the question in your last post, though you did make mention of it.  It's not about what Brian wants or likes to do, though his input is important.  It's about what you want.  Does the lack of input bother you?  Do you want more input as a player?  Do you want things to change, or be different, or something?

or what a smuggler does when he has to comprise his morals to save a job.

It can be realy difficult to run a game on the spot, with no preperation. Having said that, it's the GM's responsibility to draw in the players/characters and pace the game.

I played a game at a games convention a while back where we actualy never got to the plot. As players there was no way for us to know what the game was about, and we went to town on some stuff the GM improvised to 'give the setting more life'. I talekd to a friend who played the same scenario with a different GM and we never even met the character that introduces the party to the main adventure. Instead we spent 2 hours essentialy doing fairly dull preperation and scouting work for a situation the name never got to.

Ways this situation could have been avoided: Your character could notice that the thugs are wearing crew fatigues bearing the name of a ship he once worked on. One of the other PCs could have seen one of these guys with another NPC he knows - maybe this NPC friend knows more? Another character does somethign similar - recognises one of the thugs, recognises the bad guy that got away, etc, etc. The next day your character happens to see the bad guy that got away somewhere doing something nefarious. An NPC sees the PCs win the combat and says "Hey, you guys are handy in a fight, fancy some work?" - perhaps this NPC is involved in the plot somehow... etc, etc.

This is all the GM's responsibility, you can't expect the players to always pick up on everything. If you put the information square in their face, or give them a direct lead to follow and a reason to followit and the _still_ walk away then it's the player's fault but that's usualy pretty rare among friends.

Simon Hibbs

Hi Simon,

simon_hibbs wrote:
It can be realy difficult to run a game on the spot, with no preperation. Having said that, it's the GM's responsibility to draw in the players/characters and pace the game.

I don't think GM or player have to have this responsibility, when it comes to in game choices.

Simon, I think your describing another sort of illusionism. Where the GM snake charms the players into following 'the plot' with the choice they get. While in another style of play, the group only presents a scope of choice which leads to what they want the game to focus on. For example, a narrow scope of choice could be the GM saying "Okay, they run away. You DO run after them. Do you run fast and furious or carefully trail them?". Yes, you can feel the hand of force in that you DO have to run after them. But at the same time, it's explicit that there isn't supposed to be a choice about that (scene framing). Snake charming hides the fact that you don't really have a choice, because nothing happens if you don't run after them.

If you don't want illusionist play, then go with the choice the players make (the stay at the bar? Okay, it's star wars crossed with cheers). If you don't like all the choices they could make ("I start breaking into a candy machine"), explicity narrow the scope of choice down as much as you like.

It's traditional roleplay culture, it's asserted the player should have full scope choices, all the time. That just doesn't have to be the case.

Callan wrote:

or what a smuggler does when he has to comprise his morals to save a job.

Do you mean stuff like
A. Along with the usual stuff, a gangester threatens him into smuggling some drugs that really screw people up. He delivers them and then we see what he does after that.
or
B. Along with the usual stuff, a gangster threatens him to try and force him to smuggle some of these drugs. We then see whether the character accepts or refuses, despite the circumstances.

The game structures/mechanics need to be quite different, IMO.