Well, I continue play testing Avalanche and we had a game recently. For the purpose of this thread, I don't want to elaborate about the mulit plots aspect or the calendar. In the last game, I came up facing two problems that I wish to adress here.

Example of a scene - limitation of system used
I've said it before, I almost play freeform, meaning we throw almost no dice, discussing each scene with the players, referring to the system when we (me, as DM, them as players) agree we need to. Alas, on our last session, I came to a limitation of this. Just a note about the context : I'm using d20 but want to use TSOY in our next session. I'll explain why.

So, my players are watching the orcs gathering in a place and building up a camp. They manage to become invisible and silent and thus visited the camp for a night, getting used to it. They found out that there seems to be major tents in the camp. So, they chose to return there the next night. On the calendar, I knew that on the course of this week, new reinforcements would come to the camp and impact the plot. As the players walk near the camp, I've informed them of a group coming. Finally, they saw them entering the camp and take the opportunity to rush toward the big tents. From there they saw the orcs celebrating the coming of new forces to their help. Black orcs left the scene toward another part of the camp, unreachable for the players at the time being. So, the problem.

My players decided to enter the biggest tent. There they found many gray orcs, mostly leaders, great warriors, celebrating. One of my players decided to try to put poison (which he had in his possession) in the barrel of wine the orcs were drinking from. They could see the barrels, but it was surrounded by orcs. I stopped for a moment and asked my players : what do we roll ? Stealth ? What about if he missed that roll ? At the end, the players decided the risk was too high and forgot about that plan.

Bottom line for me is this : d20 is not meant to resolve that kind of conflict. At least, not in an exciting way. I really think this could have been fun to play, trying to reach the barrel, even an unsuccessuf dice would have bring some excitment. But not in d20. Rolling three times on stealth ? I didn't want that. Of course, on a failed roll and a big battle resulting from it, d20 would have been fine. But for that specific conflict, I really felt like I didn't have the proper tools at hand. Even if I want to play (almost) freefrom. But, maybe I'm missing something here. Anyway, that's another reaon for me to go with TSOY.

The rise of a new problem
One of the specifics of my product is that the prewritten scenario is not about the players (their PCs) and that they have to came up with their own story. Among the many characters I present for the purpose of the plot, they are some major characters who goes from one plot to the other. They are something like PCs in themselves. That said, they are very important to the plot. On our last game, my players decided to follow and help one of those characters. They were quite useful, helping him enter the orcs' camp and later on my players killed a major character in a big battle (note that this NPC should have survived, normally). I'd say we had fun, no problem with that. Now, my problem.

My players are interested in a major plot in which this main character has a big part. They might chose to follow him and continue to help him. I don't say we wouldn't have fun that way, but this really concerns me, as they might not come up, finally, with their own story. Following a main character like this might come up following a predefined path, filling up a hole in the plot. That is not the intend of my product.

I still have some thougths to give it, but I think I will put that main character aside. Meaning, if my players want to go in a given place where the NPC should go, that character would just say 'OK, then, I'll do something else meanwhile'. I hope this way they will come up with their own story.
That said, maybe I repeat myself but, surely following this character might be fun for the players, but not much for me !!!!

For the poisoning:
Disguise and a bit of time, in D&D by rules, at least. Alternatively, invisibility and move silently.
Failing the roll could cause a chase scene or a fight. The former D&D doesn't handle well, though.

As for following a big important person, big important persons can always be assassinated/corrupted. Or they can send other people to do interesting stuff.
You could add something along the lines of "This commander is likely to promote some outstanding individuals to [somewhat high rank] and send them to do [another default plotline]."

I don't really know how to help on the poisoning bit, but I think TSoY is a good move for getting the excitement from all sorts of conflicts.

Your new problem, sorry to pester you with that, is in my eyes exactly what I've been trying to tell you over the various PMs and threads.
Your product not being about the PCs, the story is not going to be about the PCs, except if they make an additional effort which often will result in a weakening of the importance of the calendar in AP (at least as long as you don't want to take into account the PCs).

Nevertheless, your players seem to enjoy playing the second roles for the while being. Use that to your own advantage. As Tommi suggests, add a "Big Character" will be the victim of an assassination attempt in your calendar and see how the players will react next session. Suddenly, the story is about their characters, in the sense that their purpose (following a big figure) is being put to the test. What will they do to protect him? Will they take his place after he is dead? etc.

If you want them to come up with their own stories, you must start their interest by introducing events and characters that imply PC reaction (you can always try groping in the dark, throwing unrelated events at them until one works, but you might get old before that happens). From there on, chances are big that the players will start taking initiative themselves so as to be more in charge of what happens to their PCs. Then you sit back, listen to them and just give a little input from time to time when the rhythm stalls.

There are ways to describe characters that work better for that kind of play than others. I think TSoY's way of doing it will work better for you than d20, so go ahead!

For the poisoning:
Disguise and a bit of time, in D&D by rules, at least. Alternatively, invisibility and move silently.
Failing the roll could cause a chase scene or a fight. The former D&D doesn't handle well, though.

You could add something along the lines of "This commander is likely to promote some outstanding individuals to [somewhat high rank] and send them to do [another default plotline].

Your new problem, sorry to pester you with that, is in my eyes exactly what I've been trying to tell you over the various PMs and threads.

Your product not being about the PCs, the story is not going to be about the PCs, except if they make an additional effort which often will result in a weakening of the importance of the calendar in AP (at least as long as you don't want to take into account the PCs).

Nevertheless, your players seem to enjoy playing the second roles for the while being. Use that to your own advantage. As Tommi suggests, add a "Big Character" will be the victim of an assassination attempt in your calendar and see how the players will react next session. Suddenly, the story is about their characters, in the sense that their purpose (following a big figure) is being put to the test. What will they do to protect him? Will they take his place after he is dead? etc.

If you want them to come up with their own stories, you must start their interest by introducing events and characters that imply PC reaction (you can always try groping in the dark, throwing unrelated events at them until one works, but you might get old before that happens).

From there on, chances are big that the players will start taking initiative themselves so as to be more in charge of what happens to their PCs. Then you sit back, listen to them and just give a little input from time to time when the rhythm stalls.

There are ways to describe characters that work better for that kind of play than others. I think TSoY's way of doing it will work better for you than d20, so go ahead!

wrote:
Well, they were already invisible and silent, but clad in full armor, the tent full of orcs. That's where the difficulty came from, going unoticed. I think my main problem with d20 was the success/failure mangement. Either they succeeded or they were going to flee/fight. I was looking for something to give this scene an exciting pace. If you can manage degree of success, then I think it's all different. I guess I was looking for something like bringing down the pain in TSOY. I didn't like the idea of seeing this scene played in a single roll.

Killing the main character might be drastic, but still possible. I'll have to give a thougth. For sure, the players would feel pressure for that !!! The important thing here, still, is that, as a DM, I have choices.

For softer one, have the players know about the assassination before it happens. But preventing it ought to cost something. And you have created a bang.
This is what Artanis was saying, too, I think.

So, bangs are not relevant to the product, right?

Do you want to speak about the product or your game?

So, bangs are not relevant to the product, right?

Do you want to speak about the product or your game?

My players are interested in a major plot in which this main character has a big part. They might chose to follow him and continue to help him. I don't say we wouldn't have fun that way, but this really concerns me, as they might not come up, finally, with their own story. Following a main character like this might come up following a predefined path, filling up a hole in the plot. That is not the intend of my product.

I think you might be being a bit paranoid about this danger, precisely becuase your intent is not to railroad.  Because what is apparent is that this is their choice, not yours, so I would suggest that it is still their story.  They are interested in that plot, they might follow that NPC, its still there choice.  In fact, I might bsuggest its a good sign, becuase it shows the characters have bought into this PC and its place in the world.

Have you asked them what they thought about it?

That said, I'm not so keen on the mention of critical NPC's that are "like PC's" in regards the plot.  By that I assume you mean, "have script immunity" or similar.  This may be a real issue; and it makes it hard to comment further without understanding why these characters need to exist or need to exist in this form, what function they fulfill?