Jeff, yes! Or a checklist:

Ogre...yup, beheaded.
Dragon...uh-huh, stabbed through eye.
Cthulhu...twice. Once with poisoned meat loaf.

That kind of thing -- a trophy collection, as it were. I was also thinking that an Elfs "Wall of Shame" would be good for the Elfs website. Grrr...cross-posting again! As I said in the other topic...leave plenty of room for a pic of the player's Elf. Again, to repeat myself, a faint outline of a male or femme elf that the player could customize would be excellent (since Elfs seem to look more or less the same).

OK, good stuff so far, but it's pretty verbal. How about the symbol, counter, spatial kind of stuff? Since one's "Action Value" is almost always a sum of two things (Spunk plus whichever), should there be some fast way to express that on one's sheet? Some fast way to read it? How might that work?

Best,
Ron

You know what, Ron? I think something is missing from Elfs. It's kinda minor (which is maybe why it's not there) but I think it could add even more depth to the player/character split: a formal description of the player's attitude to their character that defines/determines what the player will "want" when using Dumb Luck (we know what the character wants...heh).

As far as the character sheet goes...do you mean, what should it LOOK like or how the layout should be? Well, you need space for Spunk, Low Cunning, Dumb Luck, Stage, Demeanor, Coins, Equipment and Magic Items.

Maybe an iconic kind of deal? Like, have the outline of the Elf with a coin pouch and some kind of sack/backpack and you can actually draw in the stuff on your character's person (?) -- of course there would be space to write stuff out. But the overall look would be one where the picture is central and the stats kind of orbit around it.

- Jared

Aw, c'mon Jared,

"I think something is missing from Elfs. It's kinda minor (which is maybe why it's not there) but I think it could add even more depth to the player/character split: a formal description of the player's attitude to their character that defines/determines what the player will "want" when using Dumb Luck"

(You must now imagine me lighting up with an incredibly obnoxious grin.) If they can't figure THAT out, then that's the lesson, right there. Buzzer goes off. Get out of the pool. Yeesh, what next, am I supposed to roll the dice for them too?

Boy, this is fun. When I'm discussing Sorcerer, there's kind of this stern intellectual mode that creeps over me. Discussing Elfs definitely brings out the perky snot in me.

Best,
Ron

Um, I really don't have any unique ideas for this, but I just wanted to offer my support of the ideas that I liked...

I REALLY liked Jared's idea of a "a faint outline of a male or femme elf that the player could customize" for the Elf Portrait part of the character sheet. I think that's the best idea so far.

I also liked his idea of a list of monsters defeated and how (I personally like the idea of giving three or four examples, and then leaving a lot of blank spaces for many more!)

As for "symbol, counter, spatial kind of stuff", I'm sorry, but I'm not much help in this department. Btw, what IS the Elfs game's symbol? Or does it have one? Seems to me that Jeff Diamond is an EXCELLENT artist, and could probably come up with a REALLY good one... *shrugs*

Anyway, as I said, it wasn't so much a post of new ideas as an affirmation of old ones. Not sure if that was any help, though!

Daniel Worthington

Hey Dan,

It so turns out those are my favorite suggestions too. Jeff's a busy guy, though, so I don't know if an Elfs symbol or logo is forthcoming.

I have always thought that spatial means of keeping track of important numbers is the best way - you know, like Deadlands with its paper-clip methods around the edge of the sheet, and so on. However, I've also noticed that players resist using them. I don't know why, because all that scribblin' and erasin' is just a pain, but very few players make use of moving counters or other objects on a sheet. It's a mystery.

So that's why I'm asking about this stuff. For instance, you could have three little spaces on the sheet, with counters to indicate the values of Spunk, Low Cunning, and Dumb Luck. When you allocate from LC or DL, just move the counters.

I'd like to know if people think such a method would be a useful device or a waste of time.

Best,
Ron

So that's why I'm asking about this stuff. For instance, you could have three little spaces on the sheet, with counters to indicate the values of Spunk, Low Cunning, and Dumb Luck. When you allocate from LC or DL, just move the counters.

I'd like to know if people think such a method would be a useful device or a waste of time.

Hey Seth,

It's the allocation of either Dumb Luck or Low Cunning as add-ons to Spunk that I'm thinking of, which last for one action for each allocation. Also, the penalties to Spunk due to damage.

All these totals end up being ephemeral, but ever-changing, so I like the idea of shifting little counters around on the sheet somehow.

You're right that the END values, or "whole" values, for this stuff doesn't change much though.

Best,
Ron

I could see using counters for Spunk, because of damage effects (although using counters to track damage might be easier). However, assuming I'm reading the rules correctly, you either add in all of your LC or all of your DL. In this case it seems too much work (in a way) to shuffle counters around for just one action. I'd just rather add the numbers in my head.

If the shuffling were permanent or at least were long-term, counters might work. As it stands, I would not suggest using counters for either LC or DL, although counters to track either Spunk or loss of Spunk might make sense.

H'm. Good point. (Yes, you're reading the rules right.)

Back to the prototype ...

Best,
Ron

Truth, I've yet to play Deadlands (it's on my "to buy" list), and I don't think I've played any games with counters yet, so I don't know what I think of 'em.

However, since advancement is determined by coins spent and monsters killed/defeated, you could easily just have those (as well as damage to spunk) tracked by counters... That's three things, so it gives more of a reason to do it.

One question, though - I can see a paperclip, although that might be difficult at times, too. But you're GOING to have to write it down eventually. (How would you keep the counters on the page till the next game session, or the paperclip in exactly the right position, etc.) Am I missing the point here? Is it only supposed to be for "in a single game sessions use", and then you write down where you left off at so you can use the counters again next week?

Daniel Worthington
the "as yet uninitiated in counters" man

On 2001-04-24 19:14, Ron Edwards wrote:
OK, good stuff so far, but it's pretty verbal. How about the symbol, counter, spatial kind of stuff? Since one's "Action Value" is almost always a sum of two things (Spunk plus whichever), should there be some fast way to express that on one's sheet? Some fast way to read it? How might that work?

Oh yes, I'm familiar with the term, and it fits the game fine (given a slight squint if you're playing a girl elf). A couple of crude, adolescent references? In Elfs? Oh goodness.

Best,
Ron

I'm a little late coming into the pool, but here are some ideas:

Obviously you'll want to put anything important on the front of the character sheet, any of the stuff that gets used, anyway.

This means Spunk, Dumb Luck, Low Cunning, Armor used, Big Cartoony weapon used, Magic items used, and probably other thing like Stage, Demeanor and other personality descriptions, magic spells, and that cool magic item they want so bad.

There should also be space on the front for money spent and things killed. While I like the idea for a trophy list, that would eventually take up a lot of space so it'd probably work better as a simple box to put hash marks into for things killed and a running total for the money spent.

Conversely, you could make this a double-sided and all the other useless crap can go on the back, to further the playful poke at D&D and other such games. Most of the Gear should probably go on the back. The money carried should also probably go on the back to show that it's not how much cash you've got, but how you spend it that's important.

These are just some ideas but I don't particularly care for the outline of an elf idea like the Champions character sheet. If you do this, offer a version of the character sheet w/o the outline for those of us who fancy ourselves gooder drawers can draw our own pic w/o having to deal w/ the outline.

Better yet, if you can get Jeff to do it, a paper doll thing where you can put different outfits on the elf would be spiff.

But he's probably a bit busy for that.

Bummer.

Hey guys,

I'm new here, just got a chance to read through Elfs. Funny funny game.

I banged out a preliminary design for a character sheet, if anyone's interested. It's fairly simple, with some of the suggestions offered here added. I'll work with it, see if I can clear up any more space and still fit two to a page.

Dude!! You ARE the Amazing Kreskin!

I'd love to see the sheet. E-mail a copy to me, and we'll knock it back and forth, and then you - yes, YOU - would be credited right there on the Elfs page itself.

Best,
Ron

Hey!

Ben (the Amazin' K) did send me a character sheet, and Clinton (webmaster supreme) did post it on the site, so it's ready! Go download it.

God I love giving orders.

Best,
Ron

OK, I d/l'd the sheet and printed it out and here are my impressions of it for better or worse.

I actually like the fact that the the sheet is halh a standard sheet of paper (two sheets on a printed page). This makes sense for the game. I would've prefered it if the sheet filled its half of the page but it's a PDF and printers force margins and such. I can wait for the hardcover edition to get a larger character sheet.

The first person used on the sheet is clever and, again, fitting. Mispelling Demeanor the first time and scribbling it out is a nice touch.

However, there's a space for "My Magical Spells" which if your character is not a magic-slinging Elf is wasted space.

To be fair, what would that space get used for? More stuff to carry? Maybe one of Jeff's little illustrations? Space for a character sketch for people who think they are gooder drawers?

In the end, it works and that's the important thing, I guess.

Better than my ideas. What the hell was I thinking?

Hey Jack,

Thanks for the feedback. It so happens that just about everyone in the groups I've played with wants to be a magic-slingin' elf ... at least, after they realize that they don't have to be bad at fighting if they do. (Old-school players really believe that game design MUST trade off magic and combat effectiveness until they see otherwise.)

On at least one occasion, the player has opted not to run a magic-slinger, and then, upon seeing how much fun it is during play, ask to let their PC be one after all. I always say "yes." Why not, after all? (Well, OK, monsters find you tasty, but that turns out to be fun too.)

Best,
Ron

5/6 players in my straight "Elfs" game slung spells.

I also used the character sheets, and they worked very well.

= James

I hate tokens on sheets. Wanna know why? Because I have long, long arms, and I use big, big gestures. A lot. So I'll be saying something nice and dramatic, wave my arm, and *thwack!* "Aaah! My health points are gone!"

So there you go. By the way, hi, I'm new.