Hello,

The Beef Injection series of threads is my bid to focus our attention and effort on some game presentations that got swamped in the recent wave of posts at Indie Design, as well as to provide a model to newcomers about the purpose of the forum. I've passed over some very good game ideas that were presented in isolation, in order to concentrate on the ones which were presented in playable or almost-playable form.

Punk actually didn't get swamped like some others did, but I'll include it anyway.

Hey Tim,

I like a lot of things about Punk. (Pause) But ...

It was not surprising to find that you are not personally more connected to the scene, because there are lots of elements, even in this short work, that are antithetical to punk.

I'm not bringing it up to be picky, but rather to help give the game more focus, more consistency with its own dynamic, and to keep it from becoming generic "um, angry cool shit" at a college-sophomore level. So I hope my slam-dancing on the following points can be taken constructively, especially since I couldn't help but enter into kind of a punky mind-frame in composing them. Try to get into it with me ...

1) Screw the whole street-poet, gazing at sunsets crap. Malcolm is a bum, not a punk. Kick'm in the balls, get a new character example, get a new Soul scene example.

2) Smooth Stan is not a punk either. Assassin? Hits? What're you on about? Me and my mates was hanging 'round the pub, see. Ywanna catch the new band? Naaa, they suck.

Same goes for the Mafia frame example. All the others are fine, but that totally ain't in the ballpark. (Oh, and for the darker than blue one, "preserve some goodness" is not the point - the point is to preserve one's family and one's pride.)

3) Rolling doubles - kill all references to intent. It makes no sense, it relies on the notion that you roll dice for your success, not the characters. In a game like this, any die roll is player success. Just lose the sentence beginning with "However ..." with the boldface in it completely, and now it makes sense.

4) The Man cannot, not should not interfere in Soul scenes. The Man doesn't care shit about "should."

5) Rights and Soul scenes aren't adding up. As I see it, if you're in a scene of any kind, you may or may not roll; if you don't, you basically just aren't interested in Rights for that scene. That applies to any scene, not just Soul ones.

Oh yeah, and why should doubles not apply to Soul scenes? Put the boot in - what, you think family situations can't end up screwing you?

6) In the Reactions section: Question what's worth fighting? Question what's worth fighting? What, are you insane? Reactions are necessary consequences, a simple outcome of the fact that the world's fuckin' fucked, it has nothing to do with prompting whiny-ass reflections about what's worth fighting.

Same goes for Nike and commercial sectors and toxic waste dumps ... punk is not activism. It's anger, and a deliberate act of No.

In conclusion, take the middle class out of it, for the most part. (OK, I'll give you Dilbert and Office Space, and only tiny touches of Fight Club.) What has to go is the sense of making a positive difference at the larger level. Punk is personal, about the people around you, and the fucked-up fuckedness of things. If a whole bunch of you get together, a whole bunch of No gets said at once ... but you still aren't about making things a better place.

Some references, not all punk specifically, just with touches and pieces and permutations of it.
Romper Stomper, SLA Punk, Repo Man, My Beautiful Laundrette, Drugstore Cowboy, Sid and Nancy

Oh yeah, one more thing: I disagree that the GM is "against" the players in this game. The Man is certainly against the characters, but the GM is not The Man and the players are not the characters. I don't perceive any struggle among the real people involved at all.

Best,
Ron

P.S. I'll be putting up about a dozen of these Beef Injection threads over the next week.

An observation: "Punk," as written, seems to be more about anti-globalization than punk. (Note to everyone: do not discuss the merits of these two or globalization or anything like that. Please.)

One last movie recommendation: SLC Punk. It's quite worth watching for a good understanding of the punk lifestyle, especially in a very oppressive society. And it's got Annabeth Gish looking all fucked-up in it, which is good. (This may have been the "SLA Punk" Ron referred to.)

(Beef Injection. Heh-heh.)

Oops, yes, SLC Punk. My mistake.

Best,
Ron

Y'know, this is just my personal opinion, but I think it's a better game the way it is than it would be if it was "punkier". Much more meaningful. Maybe it's because I'm not a punk, but I think this conflict could be resolved much more satisfactorily by changing the name than by changing the game.

I think I'd have to nod alongside Coyote on this one. As someone who is completely devoid of "punk" sensibilities I'm left wondering "what the hell is the point to this game" if Ron's suggestions about "punkness" are inserted.

I mean from my point of view the world IS a completely fucked up place and there are only 3 ways to respond to it. 1) attempt to make do and get by despite feelings of frustration, 2) get angry and attempt to change it for the better (activism), 3) get angry and do nothing constructive whatsoever other than be angry.

This last is what I hear Punk is about from Ron's comments, in which case, I for one would have zero interest in playing a such a character.

To bring this to a constructive (hopefully) point, I wonder that if Tim is not intimately familiar with the punk scene (even as an observer) if he could create a game that would be truly punk and not just a caricature of the punk scene (I know I couldn't). Otherwise, it might be best to tone down the Punk and stick closer to an American "angry white guy" presentation.

Valamir wrote: "angry white guy"

OK old man, let's go.

generic "um, angry cool shit" at a college-sophomore level

Rights and Soul scenes aren't adding up. As I see it, if you're in a scene of any kind, you may or may not roll; if you don't, you basically just aren't interested in Rights for that scene. That applies to any scene, not just Soul ones.

if he could create a game that would be truly punk and not just a caricature of the punk scene

You do too have a group. Find someone you know and like, and who goes "spoo" at the punk references. Grab a couple beers. Play a few scenes.

I think it would be a real shame to make a "punk" game and make it merely about "tough guys vs the world" especially if trying to capture the intensity of punk left out of the Gothic-Punk universe by WW.

Its really impossible to separate punk culture from punk music. The music was the primary mode of expression and the very nexus of the movement. Punks weren't just out to screw the man, they were (and are) generations of young adults expressing rage and contempt and defiance for the political and cultural Institutions they had been expected to accept as incontrovertable "reality". I'd rather see a game that wholy embraced and exressed punk culture and created a game paradigm that celebrated it. It would be more unique and original and intense in my opinion. That's just me.

Hey there,

I've been working on this post since Ralph's post (well, with multiple distractions). Laurel scooped my point perfectly.

The key, perhaps single positive aspect of punk is its artistry. Here I’m speaking not of punk as a brief music phase in late-70s England, or as a subculture in the 80s, but of punk in the broadest sense – a disaffected, disenfranchised, working subclass, suddenly idle, suddenly faced (as teens and young people) with a world that really wishes they didn’t exist. No education, no opportunity, no place to go.

Behaviorally, the effect is ugly and (to a middle-class person) grossly unconstructive – you’re angry, so hit something. You have no culture that respects you, so build one based on immediate acquaintance. Fight over nothing among nearby groups that have done exactly the same. Even philosophically, it’s flawed (again, from that mainstream culture’s viewpoint): you hate being poor, so you sneer at money and its associations. You suffer from power wielded over you, so you exert power through shock, offense, and open hatred back.

What you are missing, Tim, is that punk rages against "oppression" only as a side-effect. It is raging against the whole schmeer, not just instances that can be opposed in-system - but against it All.

The value of punk is its artistry. What happens among these groups? Adopt the devalued items of commercial (“real”) culture, and give them value, wearing trash and utility items for jewelry. Devalue the valued items of commercial culture – is healthy, primped, and pampered hair cool? Make it gaudy, easy to care for, and crude. Is the body revered? Be fat, skinny, or scar it up. Ugly is a statement, statements have value. The more they don’t get it, the more it means. In a kind of weird way, adopt the features of acknowledged disenfranchised groups (usually black people, even if your immediate circle is racist) and appropriate them into new combinations.

Translate that to music – take existing modes, speed them into incomprehensibility or distort the voice into a groan or a shriek. Say things that only make sense to those immediately near you. Combine modes in ways that no one considered before. Art emerges.

Right at that moment, something amazing happens – musicians and other artists at the fringe of legitimate (i.e. commercial) and punk begin to incorporate the sound. A sudden awareness of the “movement” (so-called) spreads like wildfire. Teens of the enfranchised society, eager to appear rebellious, adopt all of the symbols and diction, to their parents’ horror. Record companies swoop like hawks, and some bands “make it” (with all the attendant issues of selling out vs. staying pure).

The final step is, inevitably, co-option. The subculture becomes mainstream fashion, and people sport diamond safety pins and $100 spiked ‘dos. It all sort of … passes by. But during that brief, amazing phase, entire cultures change. Every semiotic detail of society has undergone a relativist shift toward every other detail. Artistry changes the most, in every sphere of expression.

That’s punk. It’s ugly, and every distasteful reaction such as Ralph has articulated is justified in every way. No one wants to be (real) punk, you see. But throughout all the decades of industrialized life and commercial pop culture, it – and only it – is the engine of artistic change.

So my call is this: if Punk (the RPG) is to stay punk, then the key is art. Can you get the band together? Can they suddenly prompt, or express, or just somehow result in a 1000 people in one place, glorying in the realization that they’re all angry about the same thing? Can they be at the vanguard of that “amazing moment”? Can you say what needs to be said, even though in five years, brainless overprivileged teenagers will be quoting you and your words will have lost their power?

Hey, if Punk can present that, then I’m there. I’ll play.

Best,
Ron

P.S. "Spoo" is a positive noise. You go "spoo" when you like something.

Eh. I still think the problem is that the game isn't really about punks at all, at least not in the sense of any phenomenon that's been labeled "punk" in the real world. It's about a feeling, a general motive, that really doesn't have that much to do with the music and the subculture and such at all. Tim, am I wrong?

Hey,

I want to emphasize that I am talking about "punk" in the broadest sense, of which punk (e.g. Sex Pistols, Jodie Foster's Army) was such a fine example that it prompted real inquiry into the phenomenon.

So the mods/rockers deal would be punk, in the broad sense. So would certain aspects of rap or hip-hop. Definitely many phases and aspects of rock and roll, depending on whatever was being tapped for the source (e.g. the blues).

If we stick with that broad sense, then I think the game as written teeters right in between my meaning, and the more middle-class or romantic meaning, "Ooh, those tough, cool, insightful guys, who seem so real." The person who picks is obviously going to have to be Tim.

Although I do think that if it tips toward the activist side, then the game needs a new name and "face" in general.

Best,
Ron

I agree that Punk the game, in its current form, has a general "screw the man" Premise. It has some trappings of something more though, and what Ron just described in his last post- man, I'd LOVE to play a game that addressed all of that.

In the end, Tim should make whatever game he's happy with and I hope he does.


Its just that there's the potential for something less general, more.... in your face, you can't avoid dealing with us passion that I think is what has been missing from the cyberpunk, gothic-punk games on the market. Without it, a game called "Punk" isn't going to do the name much justice. The Art that Ron talked so eloquently about, the culture and history of Punk is intense stuff, worthy of a game.

OK, this isn't nearly so substantive, but:

Ron Edwards wrote: No education, no opportunity, no place to go.

My head hurts.

Since I have no real conception of punk, and since I was barely alive during the height of punkness, and since I'm rapidly running out of passion for this project, I'm just gonna leave it more or less the way it is (aside from the changes mentioned above) and change the name to Bent

Better?

Punk (the abstract concept, not necessarily the game) is about the world's *inevitable* downward spiral into the toilet, and expressing your absolute outrage at being brought into such a shithole of a world. It wasn't *your* fault, you're not going to accept responsibility for the mistakes of others. You didn't *ask* to be born.

No Future.

You can't change what's inevitable. You can't fight it. All you can do is make a stupid, pointless, obscene gesture at the object of your anger: Anything And Everything (including yourself).

No Future.

Some people have no interest in playing such a game. So be it. All games can't (and shouldn't) be for all people. But there are some who can take a story about a person or group of persons on path of meaningless self-destruction, and find something in it that will make them care about the world they live in (as opposed to the world the characters live in), and then try to make something better. Just because your punk character don' care abou' nuffin' doesn't mean that you can't either.

No Future.

So far I really like the game as it stands, and although I know nothing about the punk movement, I can certainly express what this game says to me in the ways I can express it; In west coast hiphop, it's "Fuck it!", in tagalog it's "Balahana"(come what may), it shows up in the Sin City comics, Return of the Dark Knight, the Watchmen, Falling Down, Glory, hell, any situation where someone is fighting a doomed battle but refuses to give in on principle alone.

This game is about the borderline between giving up the last piece of your soul or biting out the throats of anyone who'd dare take it...You tried to be reasonable, you tried to compromise, but you gave inch after inch and now you have not shit left and they're still not satisfied. You tried to turn to the other cheek and found the Devil uses both hands to slap.

Whether or not it should be a punk game, I think its great as it is and if anything, perhaps a name to focus on that desperate act of someone on the edge of losing their last piece of identity, of self, of ego, that final battle of a warrior who will not compromise with evil, not back down and not give up. It makes me think of the Filipino muslim act of juramentado, where they decide to take their last battle and kill as many of their enemies as possible before they themselves are killed. It's a positive act of suicide in a fashion.

Bent is fine, but I'm not sure if it captures what I'm feeling here...Let me know if I'm off target on the attitude tho' :P

Chris

Bam! Exactly Chris. Thanks.

Now, a new name... Hm. Something short, sharp, and accurate.

I like most of Rons perceptions.

I think a part of the whole "no future" trope, right there in the sex pistols lyrics, was the sense a nihilism - in the face of the prospect of WW3 and nuclear apocalypse. This crops up constantly - I am reminded of Nena's 99 red balloons. Its not merely "be angry and do nothing" - it is that there IS nothing that can be done. The hippies said not to trust anyone over thirty - the punks resolved not to live that long, but rather to live fast and leave a good looking corpse. Hence all the gobbing on fans, wearing of swastikas, and deliberate abuse of institutions like the monarchy. "Freaking the Mundanes" was much of the point.

I guess from my perception the central idea is the ostentatious rejection of the prevailing social virtues, whatever they happen to be in the particular situation. The bases of these ideas may arise from a wide variety of political or para-political sentiments, depending on the time and the place. (frex, I'm thinking of the Rebeccas, in the 1600's IIRC, who used to attack toll booths while dressed as women. Thats punk too, IMO)

Nomad wrote: Now, a new name... Hm. Something short, sharp, and accurate.

First of all, "No Future" is a great title - especially if you leave the game as it stands. It ties in with the whole "No Logo" book and subsequent movement, which is what the current game is aimed at.

That said, I don't think you should rule out making the game more "punk," Tim. I understand you think you know nothing about the "movement" - but you do. Punk isn't a movement, and isn't something you have to learn about. Punk is that irrational voice inside you that wants and craves anger. Punk's about breaking something right the fuck now, and screw the consequences. (Hell, I considered myself a punk for a long time, and still do on occasion - yet I don't know any other punks, wear Hawaiian shirts all the time, and have long hair. Definitely not your normal perception of punk - but punk all the same. I really, truly recommend watching SLC Punk this weekend. It's a fantastic movie, and I think it'll give you a lot of insight.)

Your current game is great, but really fits more as one of your examples - "anti-capitalist-punk" or something. What I recommend is having each group decide what exactly it's pissed about - that way, you could run the game the way you want (pissed at globalization) and I could run it differently (pissed at fashion, or whatever.)
The truly neat thing about this is that when your anger is resolved, you can find something new to be angry about and change the whole game - reinventing characters, much like when a kicker is resolved in Sorcerer.

It's funny, there's an article in the most recent American Spectator about how the punk movement is really about capitalism, about being an individual, about being outraged at a system that doesn't work -- and that system is socialized statism, not capitalism. About how punks need something to rage against, and if the world really was how they thought they wanted it, they wouldn't even have the option of being punks.

[Afer all, so many disaffected youth were on the dole in the late 70s, and what is that but a social program? Certainly not a product of the capitalist ideals they were so outraged against]

Interesting. Not sure if I agree with it or not (mainly because politics makes my toenails hurt), but interesting nonetheless.

Ben,

Arguably, the rage (and here we are talking about punk's intellectual second-step, not its primary, reactive step) was against consumerism and its attendant values, not capitalism as opposed to socialism. The ultimate enemy was not The Bosses or Those Bad Industrialists Who Pollute, but Le Petit Bourgeoisie, or "the fuckin' punters" - plain old folks who have what they have, like having more, and also for some reason like to get screwed over for it at the same time.

But this is getting off-topic, despite how interesting it is. I especially appreciate Gareth's input. Anyway, Clinton's post is the better example; we should be talking about the game.

Best,
Ron

Clinton R Nixon wrote: That said, I don't think you should rule out making the game more "punk," Tim. I understand you think you know nothing about the "movement" - but you do. Punk isn't a movement, and isn't something you have to learn about.

OK, here's the deal.

I agree with Clinton; there is a punk inside me. Perhaps I can make a game about punk. Then I could even keep the name.

But what I'm not seeing is how to change the mechanics of the game to support the slightly changed goals. I just don't know where to begin. Are you asking for an entirely new game?

So, what I'm asking is: if you ignore the wording, ignore the examples, and just take the raw mechanics, what do you think should stay? What should go? What sort of thing should I add in?

This will give me an idea of what you're visualizing, and then I can say, "ooooh, that's what they meant...", and then, "yeah, that's a great idea" or "nah, I don't like that at all".

Tim,

Most of the mechanics are fine, pending actual playtest. Now that you've considered the "punk" thing more carefully, go back to my first post of the thread and see what you think now, regarding presentation.

Also, f'God's sake, stick to your guns. You designed the game mechanics. You had your reasons, and a vision of what resolution would look like. Don't ask for our "gee, what should I change" opinions - you'll get chaos soup.

Best,
Ron

Chaos soup - good point. I was just... frustrated. You know how it is with the things you love.

"No Future" - well, it's not a bad name, but... Characters in the game do have a future (of sorts). It's explicitly there, and you can explicitly change it. No Future just doesn't sum up the feel of the game for me.

Well, I would hesitate to make many changes - primarily because, if you can do this while being "on the outside looking in", and still get the "oh yes" response from people more familiar with the subculture... well then, is there really another peak to climb?

I quite like No Future as a title... partly becuase its in the refrain of one of the all time classics (god save the queen). Hmmm...

http://www.iol.ie/~darkduv/framesindex.htm
Here is a punk lyrics archive you might be able to mine.

"Burning Soapbox" :) "The Unbearable Idiocy of Being"? Maybe "fuck that" could work as a title, as its somewhat more abstract but cuts right to the point, and echoes a primary mechanic.

Yeah, "Fuck That", I like it.

Nomad wrote: Yeah, "Fuck That", I like it.

Actually, perhaps just 'no'?

our frustration

Howzat?

I like the game -whatever the name. I don't understand what's so wrong with the name 'punk', actually. To quote the original 'punk' message;

I get annoyed by 'punk' games; steampunk, cyberpunk, and so on. They always focus too much on the first part, (the 'steam' or 'cyber'), and not enough on the 'punk'.

The punk way of computer operation.

Holy crap people, this is like reading issues of MAXIMUMROCKNROLL from when I was 15. Trying to define 'Punk' is absolutely useless, it's a word like 'shit' that can mean damn near anything from 'cool' to 'weak' to 'wild', etc...

I read Punk when it was first posted about here, and my reaction was 'this game isn't about punk, it's about No Logo-type street activists / ad jammers / busters, monkeywrenchers, Fight Club, etc.'. But that's because my definition of the word is at least slightly different than most of yours. It seems like I'm the only Forge member who actually WAS a punk rocker. And the name of the game doesn't (er, didn't) bother me any. It's not important that the name isn't totally accurate, the media would refer to street activists as 'punks' because it's a negative word in the media.

Anyways, not here to rant... Some other great punk and punkish flicks include: Another State of Mind, Suburbia, Breaking Glass, Ladies and Gentlemen, the Fabulous Stains, Over The Edge, Rude Boy and check out the books 'Get In The Van' by Henry Rollins, or 'Lobotomy' by Dee Dee Ramone. SLC Punk sucks. That movie is Hot Topic Punk. :P LOL.

Sean

http://rts.gn.apc.org/mayday2k/winnie.jpg

Some cover art

Ron Edwards wrote:
The value of punk is its artistry. What happens among these groups? Adopt the devalued items of commercial (“real”) culture, and give them value, wearing trash and utility items for jewelry. Devalue the valued items of commercial culture – is healthy, primped, and pampered hair cool? Make it gaudy, easy to care for, and crude. Is the body revered? Be fat, skinny, or scar it up. Ugly is a statement, statements have value. The more they don’t get it, the more it means. In a kind of weird way, adopt the features of acknowledged disenfranchised groups (usually black people, even if your immediate circle is racist) and appropriate them into new combinations.So my call is this: if Punk (the RPG) is to stay punk, then the key is art. Can you get the band together? Can they suddenly prompt, or express, or just somehow result in a 1000 people in one place, glorying in the realization that they’re all angry about the same thing? Can they be at the vanguard of that “amazing moment”? Can you say what needs to be said, even though in five years, brainless overprivileged teenagers will be quoting you and your words will have lost their power?

Fuck art. Art glorifies the struggle of the underdog to the point that actual success is a betrayal. Art tells you to hold on to your drama when you can get over it and move on. Art describes the tragic beauty and gruesome tableau of massive head trauma instead of getting a bandage. Art kills. It provides a fake shared experience to facilitate cultures ability to make more art.

How much art can you take anyway?

So anyway, the link above was actually to a rewritten version, (with a nifty little steam gauge illustration). That link again: http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/timdenee/ourfrustration.rtf

Now, howzat?