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Topic: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining
Started by: Sindyr
Started on: 4/2/2006
Board: Muse of Fire Games


On 4/2/2006 at 4:02pm, Sindyr wrote:
Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

Would this be a bad(tm) idea, to have some way to combine smaller inspirations to make bigger ones?

Perhaps using the following method - combining two inspirations yields one higher than the largest of the two - ie, combining a 2 and a 4 yields a 5.

Or I guess you could just say add the two dice together.

You could also have an overarching rule saying that it is forbidden to create 6's, if you wanted to.

Any combination of the above ideas workable?

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On 4/2/2006 at 6:57pm, TonyLB wrote:
Re: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

Interesting.  I wonder what it would do to the function of Inspirations to provide narrative continuity.  If I combined "Ultra-dude rescues hostages, 2" and "Mayor Silverfish zones land for community gardening, 4" into a 5 point inspiration, what would I have to refer back to when I used it?  One of the events that spawned it?  Both?  Neither?

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On 4/2/2006 at 8:16pm, Sindyr wrote:
RE: Re: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

I was told at one point that both Story Tokens and Inspirations were awarded to *players* while debt was awarded to characters.

For example, we play a sci-fi game and I end the session with a 5-point Inspiration and two Story tokens.

If the next session we (the gaming group) plays is a fantasy game with a completely different setting and all new characters, Can I use either the inspiration or the 2 story tokens from before?

I believe I was given to understand that the answer to using both resources in an unconnected game with the same group is yes.

If that is the case, than I am not sure that the origin of the Inspiration is important when combining them.

If on the other hand, inspirations work more like debt, in that they stay with the character sheet that was being played when they were earned, than I probably wouldn't worry about combining them, or else I would just take the origin of the higher one, or something

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On 4/2/2006 at 8:37pm, TonyLB wrote:
RE: Re: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

p. 25 (or the errata, if you have a first printing copy): "Each Inspiration is from the result of a particular Conflict. When it is used the player should narrate some reason (as tenuous as they like) why that Conflict's outcome has an impact upon this Conflict."

It's not that the Inspirations are tied to a particular character, but rather that their origin must be referenced in the narrative when you use them, in much the same way that an ability must be referenced in the narrative when you use it to roll a die.

So if you completely switch universes between sessions then you may need to get somewhat creative in how you pull your Inspirations into the narrative.

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On 4/2/2006 at 8:57pm, Sindyr wrote:
RE: Re: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

Got it - thanks for the assist.

By the way, do you have to look up page references, or do you have them memorized at this point?

Continuing Variant thought:

Perhaps an inspiration can *either* swap the die's number (the normal way of using them) *or* increase it by one.

If this were to be allowed even low level inspirations would be useful for pumping up dice by one - so if the die shows a 4 and you only have a 2 inspiration, you can make that a 5.

What do you think? Too powerful?

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On 4/3/2006 at 8:16pm, dunlaing wrote:
RE: Re: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

That latest idea does sound too powerful. Having a 6 Inspiration is a big deal since 6s can't be rolled down. Being able to use your 1 Inspiration to change a 5 into a 6 is huge.

Your original suggestion (combining two inspirations yields one higher than the largest of the two) seems like a fine house rule. It's not out of line with the rule that lets you increase an Inspiration by 1 by using one of your actions with an ability at least equal to the value of the Inspiration. It makes it a bit easier to turn a 5 into a 6, but you lose a resource.

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On 4/3/2006 at 9:01pm, Sindyr wrote:
RE: Re: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

What if (in the service of simplicity) the rule was:  You can spend an Inspiration the normal way or use it instead to increment a die by one with the exception that you cannot make a six - five is the maximum you can use this way.

Not sure if I like this idea better than combining Insp's, just wondering.

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On 4/3/2006 at 9:28pm, Matthew Glover wrote:
RE: Re: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

Just to satisfy my curiosity, why is this houserule needed at all? 

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On 4/3/2006 at 10:08pm, Sindyr wrote:
RE: Re: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

It's not.  Not needed, anyways.  It's just a thought.

Exploring systems and variants is my nature. :)

It's the game designer in me.

Partly I'm curious if there may be some way to make little Inspirations to be worth something.

After all, wihout using Abilities on them, 1's are useless, and 2's nearly so.

It would be cool to make having 3 or 4 1's and 2's worthwhile I was thinking.

By the way, if you have a 4 inspiration, you can use two abilities to raise it to a 6, right?

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On 4/4/2006 at 2:52am, dunlaing wrote:
RE: Re: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

It would take you two actions and you'd need to use a level 4 ability and a level 5 ability (or two 5s), but yes.

2 actions is pretty significant, though.

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On 4/4/2006 at 1:25pm, Sindyr wrote:
RE: Re: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

Having to have a level 4 and a level 5 isn't so terrible - I probably wouldn'y play a character that didn't have at least one levl 4 power and one level 5 power - meaning I would never run out of them, just get more debt.

Needing to use 2 actions (ie, take two turns) is a limiter though, I agree.

So we have two alternate ideas:
1) Combining Insps by taking any two of them that you have and ditching one and increasing the other by one.
2) Ditching an Insp in order to raise a die by one.

Either or both of the above can be limited.  One limit to add to either idea that probably makes sense is forbidden 6's to be created by either method.

Another factor is we have not determined is limitations in when either 1 or 2 could be done, or how often.

I would assume that whether we went with 1 or 2, that it would occur following the same rules for inspirations themsleves, that is (p25):"The player may do any of these things, in any order, as often as they can afford to.  They may do so before their Action, or after, or both. They may not do any of these things during the Action itself, or during any Reactions"

So, given the refined situation above, is 1 or 2 better?  Is either too powerful, or not powerful enough?

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On 4/4/2006 at 2:45pm, Matthew Glover wrote:
RE: Re: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

Though I don't think any of this is really necessary, I'll make an alternate suggestion.

Houserule - Equivalent Inspiration Bump
An Inspiration can be spent to bump a die with a value equal to that Inspiration up one point.  A 1pt. Inspiration can bump a 1 to a 2.  A 5pt. Inspiration can bump a 5 to a 6.

This makes Inspirations more powerful than in Stock Capes, but much less powerful than allowing a 1pt. Inspiration to bump any die and it doesn't get into the narrative repercussions of combining Inspirations.

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On 4/4/2006 at 5:05pm, Zamiel wrote:
RE: Re: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

Matthew wrote:
Houserule - Equivalent Inspiration Bump
An Inspiration can be spent to bump a die with a value equal to that Inspiration up one point.  A 1pt. Inspiration can bump a 1 to a 2.  A 5pt. Inspiration can bump a 5 to a 6.


All of these suggestions have a side-effect that I find very undesirable, to wit, there are fewer ways to tie the previous narrative into ongoing events. For a game in which a number of core proponents of the change have mentioned repeatedly that the game seems narratively discontinuous, turning around to introduce means by which continuity can be lessened seems disingenious ... at best.

There already exists a mechanism for increasing an Inspiration's value, by rolling a Trait against it like any other die, with narrative effort. I suppose at a stretch, using another Inspiration to replace the result of that roll wouldn't be unthinkable, save that you've effectively just eaten an Inspiration. No profit, there. (Now ... rolling against your own Insp, accepting the result, and having someone else React and burn their own Inspiration ... there you get Inspiration trading, and, more evilly, anyone else at the table can React and do the same thing ... as long as they keep tying things in narratively. That is a lot more interesting.)

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On 4/4/2006 at 5:30pm, Sindyr wrote:
RE: Re: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

Zamiel wrote:
There already exists a mechanism for increasing an Inspiration's value, by rolling a Trait against it like any other die, with narrative effort.


You can do that?  You can spend an action to roll up an *Inspiration*?

I thought the *only* interaction between Abilities and Inspirations is that by using an Ability you can increase the Insp by one - if and only if the Ability is the same level as the Insp is currently, or higher?

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On 4/4/2006 at 5:32pm, Sindyr wrote:
RE: Re: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

Also, without "bumping" an Inspiration of 1 is nigh useless, correct?

Furthermore, if I resulve a conflict and my dice has a 6 and the other die has a 1, must I accept a 5 inspiration, or is it legal for me to give my opponent the 1 and keep the 6 for myself?

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On 4/4/2006 at 5:44pm, Zamiel wrote:
RE: Re: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

Sindyr wrote:
You can do that?  You can spend an action to roll up an *Inspiration*?

I thought the *only* interaction between Abilities and Inspirations is that by using an Ability you can increase the Insp by one - if and only if the Ability is the same level as the Insp is currently, or higher?


Sindyr wrote:
Also, without "bumping" an Inspiration of 1 is nigh useless, correct?

Furthermore, if I resulve a conflict and my dice has a 6 and the other die has a 1, must I accept a 5 inspiration, or is it legal for me to give my opponent the 1 and keep the 6 for myself?


Am I the only person who actually reads the text of the RPG and committs it mostly to memory (Tony exempted, because if he's like me, he actively tries to elide the things he's written and published from memory)?

Page 19, in the box on Abilities. You can use an Ability to bump up an Inspiration by a point by activating a Trait on it. That Activation has the same limits as any other Trait limitation (ie. it must be equal to or greater than), but it appears its just a single-point guaranteed ... probably rather than a roll to keep folks from doing just what I suggested above, other folk jacking the die with a React/Inspiration of their own, though I personally feel that dynamic actually captures a certain kind of conflict complication very well, as in soap operas where there are duelling backstory reveals that something in one Character's story actually elipses another's.

Bumping an Inspiration of 1 gives you a 2. Whether that's useless or not is up to you. A 1 Inspiration is certainly not useless, as a scary number of my Reacts on other folks' Actions can attest.

You must match dice pairwise in the resolution phase, just like the text says. If you had two dice and the other side only one, then you could choose which to match, but you must match one.

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On 4/4/2006 at 6:13pm, Sindyr wrote:
RE: Re: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

Zamiel wrote: A 1 Inspiration is certainly not useless, as a scary number of my Reacts on other folks' Actions can attest.


pg. 25
By using their Inspiration the player may raise one die on that characters side to the value of the Inspiration.


also on pg. 25
The player may do any of these things, in any order, as often as they can afford to. They may do so before their Action, or after, or both. They may not do any of these things during the Action itself, or during any Reactions.


You cannot use Insp to react on other people.  As far as I can see, the only thing you can use an Insp for is to raise the die on a side you are aligned with before or after your Action, but not during Actions or Reactions.

So, without bumping a 1 to a 2 using an Ability, is there *any* use for a 1 Inspriation?

Or am I missing something?

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On 4/4/2006 at 9:43pm, TheCzech wrote:
RE: Re: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

Sindyr wrote:
So, without bumping a 1 to a 2 using an Ability, is there *any* use for a 1 Inspriation?

Or am I missing something?


None whatsoever.  You are missing nothing.

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On 4/4/2006 at 11:28pm, Sindyr wrote:
RE: Re: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

Zamiel wrote: A 1 Inspiration is certainly not useless, as a scary number of my Reacts on other folks' Actions can attest.


Given the preceding observations, I cannot understand Zamiel's comments above - can anyone clarify?

And the apparent fact that 1 Insps are literally useless with being bumped by an Ability make a house rule to give them some worth kind of attractive - *if* is doesn't threaten game balance.

I think of the the two ideas, being able to use any level Insp to bump up a die by one (to a max of 5) is my favorite, because its the simplest.

But the idea about combining two Insps to form one bigger one one higher that the higher of the two isn't bad, but it's not as simple.

Either way, get enough 1 Insps and that would be as good as getting a 5.  I think I like that.

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On 4/5/2006 at 3:30am, Sindyr wrote:
RE: Re: Quick Variant Idea: Inspiration combining

Zamiel - you around to clue me into what you were saying above about Reacts and Insps?

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