Hello,
I've been away for quite a long time, but I just wanted to say hello again to everyone.

My game, Fantasy Imperium is nearly ready for press.

I just wanted to let everyone know that a really great place to print your books is Thailand.
My book is 356 pages B&W interior, with a hardback color cover and has 2 full color maps inside the front and back covers..... guess how much is costs to print?

$2.55 each.

If you'd like to contact my printer for your own books, here is their info:

Thai Watana Panich Press
http://www.twppress.com/

There are lots of good POD companines too btw, but I had already decided to go with TWP Press. 
At GAMA, many POD companies came up to me and if anyone is interested, I can dig thru my stuff and get you their contact info too.

Anyway, have fun!

How much does it cost to ship your books to America? Does that combined with the printing cost still come out cheaper?

How many books did you have to order to get that price?  Minimum orders?

I'm ordering 6000 books. 

The ppl at Alliance who are going to carry my books told me to keep the print runs small.
Feel free to contact them and ask what it would cost to have a smaller print run.  It is pretty crazy to print so many books, I admit, but I figure that if I'm not selling many books, then this is only a hobby and not a business.  If it's only a hobby then it isn't really worth the effort. 

Shipping is another matter.  I've forgotten most of the details, but it should add $1 or $2 /book to the price.  That still makes it very cheap to print in asia.  The only thing it that you have to have plenty of lead time.  It takes a month to print the books and another month to ship it...and if there is a delay, it could take longer.  The best way to deal with shipping is to get an import broker (I'm using Western Overseas) to handle the shipping and importing stuff.

Most books these days are printed in Asia (Hong Kong).  One of my artists works for DC Comics and he says they print overseas.  One of my cover artists (Lorenzo Sperlonga) says that Heavy Metal prints in Asia as well.

Good luck with your investment man.

I wish I had the confidence in my games selling in those numbers - but since a I don't - I stick with very short print runs.

You got a good price there. Good luck with the venture!

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

I know nothing about your book, but in this day and age, 6,000 is a very large print run. Did you talk specific numbers with the Alliance people? If not, I'm guessing they meant 1,000-2,000 by "small." Honestly, I don't even think, e.g., Green Ronin printed 6,000 copies of True20.

I would caution you against using print run as your hobby/business delimiter; it's not a very good one. By such logic, you might have printed 12,000 copies and been even more business-like? I don't see the distinction as a particularly meaningful one, but if pressed I'd say it is one more of intent. Is your primary intention to earn a profit or to entertain/be entertained?

Finally, as to anyone considering printing abroad, the considerations are a bit more complex. You certainly must factor in the higher shipping costs but also the taxes/tarrifs/import charges along with any expenses for a broker if you go that route. The other downsides to foreign printing are the additional time it takes to receive the books and, in some instances, the problems that can arise due to language barriers. I'm not saying foreign printing is a poor choice, just that you need to consider these, often hidden, factors.

Good luck in your project.

Just as a little factual note, "Most books these days are printed in Asia (Hong Kong)." is about as far from correct as you can get.

Mark, how are you doing proofs?

$6,000 to $12,000 to ship the books from Thailand from the US?

Is the printer doing the shipping and that what they are charging you? That is WAY to much. I hhave heard of a 2,000 print run of board games costing about $800 to ship from China. I could see your run of books cost x2 to x3 that, but thats it.

I would look closely at your shipping options and since printing from overseas takes a while anyway and you are presumably doing it for the savings, then have it shipped via sea freight the cheapest way possible even if it takes another month to get here.

At a printing price of $2.55, tacking on $1 to $2 per book, with a 6,000 print quantity, thats not much cheaper, if at all, for printing domestically. I have heard of quotes for hard bound printed books in print runs as little as $1000 costing around $5 to $6 each. Driving your printing run to the 3,000 to 5,000 range and you can shave a couple dollos off that price.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com

Mark, how real is this situation? Have you actually initiated the process?

If not, then I have some feedback for you. If so, then it's too late, and there's really no point to continuing the discussion.

All I'll say now is that the printing and publishing model you are apparently following doesn't reflect anything that's generally advised here at the Forge.

Best, Ron

    WOW. That's a lot of money to put into printing books, particularly if you aren't a big time publisher or anything at the moment. If you actually ave that kind of disposeable income to expend on a project like this I would suggest you maybe look into some different options for the product. If you change who you're printing with it might cost more to print the books themselves, but like everyone is saying, that shipping cost is gonna kill you, there are much better shipping rates.
    If it was me, which it isn't, I would print maybe 1,000 to 2,000 books TOPS, because RPGs do not in fact sell in large quantities usually until they are already highly sucessful, often not even then. Spend the additional money on advertising, other products, convention booths, and other attention getting/ sales increasing tactics.
    Of course, what do I know? I haven't been at this too long, and I certainly have nowhere near the 6 to 12 thousand dollars who are planning on spending on shipping alone. Still, I think more research should be invested in this before spending that much money. Maybe it will turn out you're right, but maybe it won't, all I'm saying is to me it sounds more than a little steep.

Jeremy, one thing you might notice about this thread is that Mark hasn't answered any of the questions for him, or otherwise responded past his first post.

This means Mark didn't post here for a discussion. He posted here to strike a pose. Especially when you consider his previous posts here, which were generally empty, and when you consider that every decision he made about publishing his game has been shown to be disastrous, as we would have been glad to tell him.

So when you see something like that, here's my suggestion - don't dignify it with a response. As I see it, if Mark doesn't answer my post with direct and clear statements, if he just posted to post, then he doesn't deserve your time and typing.

I'd much rather be discussing whatever publishing issues and choices you're dealing with right, in a thread you'd start.

Best, Ron

-Hi Ron,
    Good point really I should have thought of that sooner. Hmm... a thread of my own is sure to follow mind you, just not at this instant.
    Funny thing is after I read your post I sort of got this image in my head of a Power Ranger making a post on here while practicing battle poses in their living room. Probably says something about me, I'm just not sure exactly what...

Hello,
Sorry to vanish for so long and not to reply to anyone, but I've been busy finishing up the book. 

I misspoke about the cost to ship it here.  The shipping cost depends on a lot of factors but as I recall, it should cost about $1000 or $2000 to ship it here... I'll have to get back to you guys on this tho...

I had a booth at GAMA and presold about 300 books there (one guy in St.Louis wanted 40 copies for his 6 stores!). 

I've made a deal with Alliance for distribution... hmm... and a guy in Australia wants a dozen books.  Thats a good thing, since Ben O'Neil's pic (he made Scarlet Wake) is on the back cover of the book.

I've been reading lots of marketing books....

I may end up only printing 1000 or so books as you guys mentioned tho. 

In all honesty tho, I think ppl like the book because of all the nice artwork.  One person at GAMA asked me if it was an art book.

I'm off to Thailand again to chat with the printer. 
Shipping is a real pain tho... I tested a shipment of tshirts and posters and flyers and it sat in customs for 3 weeks!  Guess they were looking for drugs... There isn't an import tax on books, but there are all kinds of little fees.  If anyone wants to know, I can give a breakdown...tho I'll have to dig up the records.

btw, is anyone going to Origins?  I'd like to drop by your booth and say hello. :)