Topic: Free narration: whose character is it anyway?
Started by: JMendes
Started on: 4/26/2006
Board: Muse of Fire Games
On 4/26/2006 at 4:49am, JMendes wrote:
Free narration: whose character is it anyway?
Hi, :)
So, here's us playing Capes for the second time, and another couple of questions popped up, the main one being, if I choose to play a character, is that character "mine" and for how long.
Before anyone goes any further, let me be clear that I am emphatically not talking about the authority/inviolate thing, but a whole new turtle.
Here's the AP sit:
Scene setter calls a scene in the office building where his spotlight character alter ego works, and he's playing his spotlight character. Another player takes up Mook and Puppet Master and creates "the attackers", loosely describing them a la the bad guys in Die Hard. So now we're up to the first page of free narration. The scene setter, who is the first page starter, narrates his character in civilian garb, at his workstation. Nothing much is going on otherwise, and we're all kinda waiting for the page starter (PS) to, you know, do something, and he turns to the Mook player (MP) and says:
PS: Aren't you going to free narrate something? Like your characters entering or something?
MP: Nah, not yet, I'm waiting on your first action to decide where I'm gonna go with them. But you're certainly free to do it yourself.
PS: Wait, you want me to narrate your characters into the scene?
MP: Sure, I was going to do it later, but you can go ahead if you want.
PS: But... they're your characters.
MP: Well, mechanically, yes, but free narration is, you know, free. Go ahead.
PS (puzzled): Well, ok, I suppose I could... er... what kind of attackers are they, like what do they look like, what are they dressed like?
MP: Dunno. Go ahead and color it in whichever way you like.
PS: But.. they're your characters.
MP: Well, yeah, I do have a plan for them, but, you know, I don't really care what they look like.
PS: I need to know what they look like in order to narrate their entry, though.
MP: That's fine, go right ahead and make something up.
PS: But... they're your characters!
MP: No, not really. Look, it's free narration and you're the page starter. Either narrate something or start the actions.
PS (frustrated): Fine. Goal: my hero capture the attackers.
MP: Hey, that's cool. A man dressed in black and holding an automatic enters your office through the window. He points the gun at you, still in your civvies, and says, sternly, get your hands up. I'm rolling Stern on the black side of the goal.
And from thence, the scene progressed.
So, here's the question: is free narration actually free for all, or am I responsible for my character(s) until they're taken from me by the mechanics? In other words, who was being the asshat in the above exchange, if any of the two?
Cheers,
J.
On 4/26/2006 at 6:13am, Zamiel wrote:
Re: Free narration: whose character is it anyway?
JMendes wrote:
So, here's the question: is free narration actually free for all, or am I responsible for my character(s) until they're taken from me by the mechanics? In other words, who was being the asshat in the above exchange, if any of the two?
As I see it, neither are being asshats, but what we're talking about isn't a mechanical question, its a social question. And every group can make that call for themselves ... and even change it on the fly.
Some groups might be a lot more "protective" of individuals' narration, some might be extremely loose. Some might be protective of priviliged characters and extremely loose for those explicitly noted during character selection as mooks. Whatever. Mandating a response would be counter-productive.
On 4/26/2006 at 6:24am, JMendes wrote:
RE: Re: Free narration: whose character is it anyway?
Hey, :)
Zamiel wrote: As I see it, neither are being asshats, but what we're talking about isn't a mechanical question, its a social question. [...] Some groups might be a lot more "protective" of individuals' narration, some might be extremely loose.
Hmm. While I do realise that you did provide an answer of sorts to what I was asking, I just wanted to point out that my problem wasn't so much how far I am allowed to go in narrating for your character, but rather how far are you allowed to go in dumping your character on my lap, although this other question is certainly interesting as well.
Cheers,
J.
On 4/26/2006 at 6:26am, JMendes wrote:
RE: Re: Free narration: whose character is it anyway?
Hi, :)
Wait, that's stupid, they are the same damn question! I did preview and reread the post, but it didn't really hit me until I hit Post...
Yeah, I kinda see it now...
So, let me rephrase the question: how do you guys do it?
Cheers,
J.
On 4/26/2006 at 6:59am, Zamiel wrote:
RE: Re: Free narration: whose character is it anyway?
JMendes wrote:
So, let me rephrase the question: how do you guys do it?
Well, as for my group ... we wing it.
Seriously, we pretty much just operate on popcorn in this kind of thing. If someone objects to being narrated in some way during Free Narration, they perk up. If they don't, they don't. Its an extremely fluid approach, primarily facilitated by nobody getting too bent out of shape because pretty much everything is flexible in Capes, post-hoc or propter-hoc.
"... And Reese is standing by the bar wearing a slinky cocktail dress ..."
"Reese would never wear a slinky cocktail dress."
"Goal: Reese arrives at the party wearing a slinky cocktail dress. Oh yeah? You want to back that play, doctor?"
And off you go.
Possibly amusingly, this exact exchange is not entirely unthinkable given the players and characters in my This Present Darkness game.
On 4/26/2006 at 10:10am, ricmadeira wrote:
RE: Re: Free narration: whose character is it anyway?
JMendes wrote: PS (frustrated): Fine. Goal: my hero capture the attackers.
MP: Hey, that's cool. A man dressed in black and holding an automatic enters your office through the window. He points the gun at you, still in your civvies, and says, sternly, get your hands up. I'm rolling Stern on the black side of the goal.
I am the PS, eheh. Just for the sake of completeness let me add that when I put the Goal on the table, I narrated something, as per the rules. We were in a TV studio, so I described my character seeing an armed guy dressed in black fatigues cross the catwalk over the newscast set, were the lights are.
On 4/26/2006 at 1:33pm, Hans wrote:
RE: Re: Free narration: whose character is it anyway?
JMendes wrote:
So, let me rephrase the question: how do you guys do it?
I'll be honest, we don't usually end up with a lot of free narration before the first action. This is the usual order of events for a scene in our group...
1) Scene framer gives a general outline of the scene, with enough detail to be able to decide/come up with characters. This usually entails the scene framer declaring their first free character.
2) Everybody else annouces, around the table, who their first free character will be. This usually doesn't involve a lot of narration. It just involves saying who you are playing, and either pulling out the sheets or making up new ones. People then pay story tokens for extra players.
3) The scene framer then, essentially, starts their first action. They will add more details into the scene and play a conflict that starts things off.
The scene framer pretty much describes where everyone is, if he cares to, as part of the narration for his first action. I suppose he could ask people where they want to be and write it in, but to be honest I have never seen it happen. The scene framer just says where the other characters are, or leaves them out and lets their players say where they are on their own actions. I suppose the bottom line is since we have never really figured out exactly how to stop the "free narration" at the beginning of a scene and go into "action narration" as part of the turn order, we just skip over it and go straight into the turn order. Its never really caused us problems, that I can see, but maybe we are missing something.
I must say that if I were the scene framer in the little vignette you describe, I would be ALL OVER MP's carte blanche with their character. Good God, that player is essentially handing you another character to play with! I'm going to jump on with both feet and ride that creative surfboard all the way to the beach.
PS: Aren't you going to free narrate something? Like your characters entering or something?
MP: Nah, not yet, I'm waiting on your first action to decide where I'm gonna go with them. But you're certainly free to do it yourself.
PS: You got it baby. Ok, a big panel van pulls up to the outside of the office complex, with the words "MIMES 'R' US" on the side of it, out jump seven Mimes carrying MAC-10's. They rush into the building, and one holds up a sign that says "Everybody on the floor, and no one will get hurt!" They are completely silent.
That sort of thing.
On 4/26/2006 at 2:58pm, drnuncheon wrote:
RE: Re: Free narration: whose character is it anyway?
Hans wrote: PS: You got it baby. Ok, a big panel van pulls up to the outside of the office complex, with the words "MIMES 'R' US" on the side of it, out jump seven Mimes carrying MAC-10's
With silencers!
On 4/26/2006 at 3:49pm, TheCzech wrote:
RE: Re: Free narration: whose character is it anyway?
Hans wrote:
I'll be honest, we don't usually end up with a lot of free narration before the first action.
In my experience, this is the usual pattern once you have been playing the game for a while. Free narration at the beginning of the scene becomes less satisfying than narration earned through goal resolution, so you tend to give enough to get things rolling and then let the goals start flying ASAP.
On 4/26/2006 at 7:23pm, Sydney Freedberg wrote:
RE: Re: Free narration: whose character is it anyway?
Yeah. You start to look at the "free" in "free narration" as "hey, I'm not getting paid any Story Tokens or Inspirations for this!"
In your example, I'd say nobody's being an asshat, but both guys are being a little too polite and cautious -- which is the safe way to go when you're just figuring out the game and the group. As you get more in synch, you get more comfortable sharing the world and the characters.
Actual example, closely paraphrased from the middle of a scene involving the mysterious time-travelling puppetmaster Tempus (created by Eric Sedlacek, but quite possibly played by me at this particular moment, I don't recall), the 13-year-old version of Tony's spotlight character Vanessa (created by me as a homage to Tony, but played by Tony at the time), and the 32-year-old version of my spotlight character Minerva (created by me and played by me in this scene, in a stunning burst of simplicity:
ME: So Vanessa's hacking away at Minerva with Excalibur, and Tempus is attacking from the other side with his -- hey, Eric, would Tempus have a sword-cane?
ERIC: Uh -- [shrugs].
ME: Tempus totally has a sword cane. So Tempus is slashing at her....
On 4/27/2006 at 12:39am, JMendes wrote:
RE: Re: Free narration: whose character is it anyway?
Hey, :)
Hah! It occurs to me to turn the question on its head.
Ok, say you're playing Reese. It's free narration time. Neither you nor I are the page starter. I turn to the table and say:
Zamiel wrote: "... And Reese is standing by the bar wearing a slinky cocktail dress ..."
"Reese would never wear a slinky cocktail dress."
Let's say further that the page starter has no interest in this particular exchange and is off on a conversation or some other bit of free narration time which he wants to see either converge or diverge before his first action.
So, which is it? Is there a slinky cocktail dress or isn't there? And what if Reese is a girl/a man/a lamppost instead?
Cheers,
J.
On 4/27/2006 at 4:00am, Zamiel wrote:
RE: Re: Free narration: whose character is it anyway?
JMendes wrote:
Ok, say you're playing Reese. It's free narration time. Neither you nor I are the page starter. I turn to the table and say:Zamiel wrote: "... And Reese is standing by the bar wearing a slinky cocktail dress ..."
"Reese would never wear a slinky cocktail dress."
Let's say further that the page starter has no interest in this particular exchange and is off on a conversation or some other bit of free narration time which he wants to see either converge or diverge before his first action.
So, which is it? Is there a slinky cocktail dress or isn't there? And what if Reese is a girl/a man/a lamppost instead?
Honestly?
Depends on how hard Heather gives you a smack across the head and turns the cold Canadian sniff of disdain on you.
Because I don't enjoy getting smacked around by a woman bigger than I am, I tend to let her have her way in such matters, if only because she's unlikely to then turn around and narrate Voynich wearing a pink gingham dress -- and she would, just to prove I'm being a dick.
That's the Popcorn Effect, in a nutshell. That has nothing to do with Capes, its purely about how much comfort the Players have with each other narrating bits about them. I know that Reese would never wear a slinky cocktail dress; she much prefers black SWAT fatigues in formal situations. Its impolite for me to start cranking out a whole new concept for her, in part because its Heather's spotlight character, but more importantly, because creating a conflict ripe for resource reaping like that anbd then not doing so is stupid! That's true for anything I might narrate that someone else says "Hold on a second" about, even if its about a character someone else often plays.
For example, if I casually toss off "and Reese arrives in a slinky evening dress," and Heather doesn't blink and eye, Eric very well may, because he's cool like that, and chime in, "Reese would never wear a slinky evening dress!" At this point I can either take the social approach (where we talk it out, and agree on some solution that satisfies everyone), or I break out the mechanics with a big ol' feces-eating grin and say, "Oh yeah? Prove it, big man!" There's a good chance Heather'll weigh in on one side or the other, herself, or even split out a third. And thus does the Scene kick off with something we all care about.
Capes, pointedly, does not tell you how to run your social life. It doesn't teach you not to be a dick. It does give you tools to resolve conflicts of vision like that if you choose to use it to do so. It doesn't take away any tools to do so, it just adds a few more, and a means of using resources to do so.
In summary, then, I guess the answer is a hearty "it depends."
(I'd put Reese's write-up as it stands now here, but I fear folks might look at us funny. No, I relish them looking at us funny, but its not too short.)
On 4/27/2006 at 9:35pm, JMendes wrote:
RE: Re: Free narration: whose character is it anyway?
Hey, :)
Zamiel wrote: Reese [is] Heather's spotlight character
Er... crap. I hadn't realized this, and so it happens that the thread veered off on a tangent.
Really, I just wanted to know what the "free" in free narration means.
Let's take spotlights out of the picture. In fact, let's switch everything around.
Scene #3: You create a villain whose secret identity is Hannah, socialite extraordinaire. We play through the scene.
Scene #4: Now, I'm playing Hannah, and I'm planning to secretly crash a party and rob the house safe. All of a sudden, you narrate Hannah coming into the party in a slinky cocktail dress, which, you know, she even might, seeing as she's a socialite and all, but I step in with, not tonight, she's here secretly.
Again, it's not my turn to act, and it's not your turn to act, so neither of us can slap anything on the table, but the show must go on. Let's say you and I talk for a bit and can't come to an immediate conclusion.
The fundamental question is, outside of the mechanics, do I have any real rights over Hannah, as the player of the character.
"Outside of the mechanics" is the key factor, here. If you want to expend an action putting a conflict on the table, by all means. Similarly, if you become a conflict resolver and narrate stuff about my character, hey, you payed for it with resources (a claim is a resource, like any other), and you earned it. More power to you.
Also, if you don't object to the dress, then there's also no problem. Basically, either you've granted me the authority to put it in, or I already had it to begin with, and it doesn't really matter.
But, if I object, and assuming neither of us puts the conflict on the table, then, in the game fiction, does Hannah come in to the party wearing the dress, or doesn't she?
Cheers,
J.
On 4/27/2006 at 9:43pm, TonyLB wrote:
RE: Re: Free narration: whose character is it anyway?
JMendes wrote:
But, if I object, and assuming neither of us puts the conflict on the table, then, in the game fiction, does Hannah come in to the party wearing the dress, or doesn't she?
That's a good question. I have no idea. It's never come up in any of the times I've played.
Basically, the sequence I have seen goes something like this:
• "Hannah comes in wearing a slinky cocktail dress."
• "Uh ... no. I don't think so."
• "No, I'm serious. I want it that way."
• "Well I want it the other way!"
• "So ... wait! You mean that if we make this into a mechanical conflict we'll have active engagement on both sides?"
• "Resources for everyone! Rock!"
• "So that should be a conflict. Which means we need to frame back to when she's picking out what to wear, right?"
• "Right! Let's do it!"
On 4/27/2006 at 9:56pm, JMendes wrote:
RE: Re: Free narration: whose character is it anyway?
Hey, :)
TonyLB wrote:JMendes wrote:
But, if I object, and assuming neither of us puts the conflict on the table, then, in the game fiction, does Hannah come in to the party wearing the dress, or doesn't she?
That's a good question. I have no idea.
Wow... k, then, unless you care to make an "official ruling" of some sort, it may well be time for a house rule. :)
Well, the inherent purpose of the thread has been served, but I think there's room for further discussion on the consequences and implications of this.
Thanks, Tony. And thanks, everyone else, for chiming in. :) Good stuff all around.
Cheers,
J.
On 4/28/2006 at 12:07am, Zamiel wrote:
RE: Re: Free narration: whose character is it anyway?
JMendes wrote:Zamiel wrote: Reese [is] Heather's spotlight character
Er... crap. I hadn't realized this, and so it happens that the thread veered off on a tangent.
Except that I pretty much explicitly said it doesn't matter that Reese is Heather's spotlight character, thus my little diversion about Eric chiming in. This is pretty much protocol for every character in our lexicon. If you have a different idea than someone else is narrating, you have a choice.
• You can talk it out.
• You can fight it out with mechanics.
But, also like I said, this is just a total non-issue in most games, since they only give you the first option, so I'm sure its been an issue for you before. How do you normally deal with game situations in which one person wants one thing and another sees it differently? Same thing here, save you have the additional option of going to Conflicts.
JMendes wrote:
But, if I object, and assuming neither of us puts the conflict on the table, then, in the game fiction, does Hannah come in to the party wearing the dress, or doesn't she?
Dunno. Do you punch me in the head? Do you throiw popcorn? Do you call me an ass and stomp out? How do you usually resolve these sorts of things?
As I said, if you choose not to invoke the extant Conflict rules, then you're left with social resolution. This is not valid area for House Rules, in my view. You already have a mechanical means of resolving the conflict of vision at your fingertips, and as we've established repeatedly, it works just fine for things of this nature. What you're asking here is, "How do I resolve a social conflict amongst my group?" and I have no answer for you that would be applicable save pointing out the way my group handles things (occasionally Russian Roulette), or the Capes mechanics themselves.
As Tony says, such moments are obvious big, oozing, spurtulating flags that there are Resources to be farmed. If you don't choose to use the system to do so, other options are yours to imagine.
On 4/28/2006 at 3:25am, JMendes wrote:
RE: Re: Free narration: whose character is it anyway?
Hey, :)
Hmmm. Interesting point, Zamiel. In "other games", character ownership is pretty much assumed if not outright stated in the rules. Narration of "other people's characters" is an extremely rare occurrence (except for the GM*). In Capes, however, character ownership is actually assumed to not exist, which is why the issue even comes up at all.
(*) Hmmm again. I was talking with friend and fellow gamer Rogerio, the other day, who was also in our two Capes sessions. He's the author of that D&D GM asteroid analogy I mention here. I think I just grasped the extent of what he's saying, and it applies here as well. Zamiel, correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is, if I'm playing Hannah and the GM narrates Hannah walking in in the aforementioned cocktail dress and I'm all like, no way, then how do we resolve it.
Well, frankly, this (almost) never came up in those other games. I think it's because, in those games, the Social Contract converges onto a default level of ownership that is pretty much acceptable around the table, and it does so fairly quickly. In (my group of) Capes, though, it doesn't, which is why I figured a "house rule" might be a solution. After all, many house rules are nothing more than verbalizations of aspects of the Social Contract.
Like I said, interesting point.
Cheers,
J.
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On 4/28/2006 at 7:29am, Zamiel wrote:
RE: Re: Free narration: whose character is it anyway?
JMendes wrote:
Hmmm. Interesting point, Zamiel. In "other games", character ownership is pretty much assumed if not outright stated in the rules. Narration of "other people's characters" is an extremely rare occurrence (except for the GM*). In Capes, however, character ownership is actually assumed to not exist, which is why the issue even comes up at all.
(*) Hmmm again. I was talking with friend and fellow gamer Rogerio, the other day, who was also in our two Capes sessions. He's the author of that D&D GM asteroid analogy I mention here. I think I just grasped the extent of what he's saying, and it applies here as well. Zamiel, correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is, if I'm playing Hannah and the GM narrates Hannah walking in in the aforementioned cocktail dress and I'm all like, no way, then how do we resolve it.
Well, frankly, this (almost) never came up in those other games. I think it's because, in those games, the Social Contract converges onto a default level of ownership that is pretty much acceptable around the table, and it does so fairly quickly. In (my group of) Capes, though, it doesn't, which is why I figured a "house rule" might be a solution. After all, many house rules are nothing more than verbalizations of aspects of the Social Contract.
Like I said, interesting point.
I think it actually does come up all the time in those games, but its in such an uncontrolled and unconstrained field of discourse, and there is such a deliberate stigma in actually invoking it, that folks don't actually think much about it.
Consider: I'm playing D&D, and its deep in combat (as D&D often inevitably is). I'm playing a Monk with Great Cleave, but I've watched a lot of wuxia this week and I'd like to narrate, as a result of a successful attack and Cleave follow-up, that I swing through one pitiful kobold, the burly Barbarian catches my arm and flings me back the other direction, decapitating a second and third as I pirouette like a top. Can I narrate that? Sure, it's well within the meta-narrative as described by the result of the mechanics. What if the Barbarian's player doesn't want him to play along? How do I resolve it? That's effectively what you're asking. And the answer is the same, that the scope of the resolution of that conflicts lies outside the grounds of the rules as a whole. Resolving it, in the social sense, is none of the rules' business.
The asteroid analogy is fine, insofar as it talks about why the GM does things and why they don't, but it falls short in the specific case of Capes because we do have an in-built mechanic for resolving such conflicts between story authors. And its literally conflict between Players in the Authorial Stance (to descend into the black-magic dialect of the Forge), not at the level of Characters within the narrative. I can prove this by argument by noting that given a conflict between characters in any given Scene, if no Player at the table particularly cares how the conflict at the character-level resolves, there'll be no invocation of mechanics at all. This can apply to a whole fight, or even death. (Its perfectly conceivable for the Free Narration part of a Scene to consume a whole combat of one man against an army, with the first Conflict hitting the table being Goal: Archieodesius discovers the sword Trollbane amidst the corpses.)
To be completely honest, I think you're making more work in the course of this question than exists. If two Players disagree enough about whether a character does or says or is something, they have the mechanics to resolve it. If they don't want to invoke the mechanics, they just have to figure out how to settle their differences like adults, via discussion or violence, whichever is more convenient.
Capes makes it occasionally, even often, profitable to pick fights with folks over stuff they care about. Its not a game for the non-confrontational. The whole core mechanism of the system is built around picking fights you want to lose, so you can turn around and pick fights you can win. It also, and in parallel, makes awareness of the social context a part of the game, since if you're an ass, everyone else at the table will beat you bloody in Conflicts and arrange for you to come away with very little in the way of Resources. (You'd be surprised how little you can gain if everyone else at the table is willing to React to push your opponent to a 6, every time you get into a Conflict. And they certainly will, just to punish you, once they figure out they can.)
In that sense, Capes creates a self-correcting environment, which is a lot of the reason I am kind of baffled by your particular question setup here, and positively irritated by Syndir's repeated inability to Get It(tm). The underlying structure of the mechanics force crises of intentional conflict and then tell you how to deal with it. Pick your fights wisely, but pick your fights.
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