Having delved into the HERO System, M&M and assessing incoherence thread here: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=19543.0, which also branched into some really interesting Exalted threads... especially this one,  Exalted: searching for my face, here:http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=6902.0...I was inspired to write what happened to us at our Weapons of the Gods game yesterday afternoon.

I'm not going to get into all that many story specifics, if you want that stuff, I've provided a link:
Here are recaps of the adventures so far, the one that inspired me to write this was the last one, Ep 4: Crimson Court.
http://www.eos-press.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=785

But here was one of those afternoons of gaming that just rolled along brilliantly.  And while i've got some inclinations of why, it all seemed so blurry and instinctual as a GM, I can't really tell you why this episode worked so well compared to some other games I've been in of recent times.

For those who don't know, Weapons of the Gods is a wonderful system hidden by really disorganized, but entertaining writing.  It also has a few gems of game design.  It is similar in themes as Exalted, but a bit more narrow, if you consider all of Mythic China a narrow palette to paint with.  But like Exalted, you, the player, are head and shoulders above the common man and your actions shake Heaven and Earth.  Or can, anyhow. 

Some of the rules are written very vaguely, but the actual die rolling mechanic is so perfect for the system.  It just feels BIG, writ LARGE... Very, very clever stuff.  Then there are Lores, a player empowerment tool if I ever saw one.  Lores can be bits of knowledge that anyone can read.  Stuff like, a Peasant's Life, or The Tao of Matrimony.  But if the player purchases a Lore, it is a big, freakin flag!  Waving away for the GM.  Each Lore has little plot points you can purchase, along with some small bonuses in certain situations. 

I provided a Lore on the Writhing Sickness Cult, my main badguy organization.  Bob, who plays a doctor, purchased it and certain little advantages, like a small bonus dealing with Writhing Sickness Cult's infamous poisons.  But he chose NOT to purchase a God Weapon associated with fighting the WSC nor a chance to garner one of the WSC's infamous poisoned Beast Claw clubs.  In other words, the player helped me, the GM, by making choices on what he was going to buy, what he was interested in.  I knew I had a hit on my hands with the whole idea of the WSC, when he glommed on immediately to Poison Treatment bonus.  That is important to Bob.  I should give him good chances to heal people of their poisons, apart from the one obvious PLOT DRIVING DEVICE of their Sifu poisoned by his own daughter and lies in a coma...

But anyway, yesterday.

I had:
Bob, a historian, who is thoughtful, exciteable (odd, but works) and very invested in gaming.
Erin, a data admin and coming back to gaming after a long absence.  I don't know her well, but I'm enjoying her play immensely, she is very clever.
Eric, who've I've played with for 10 years and is Erin's husband.  Eric likes combat, but is a wonderful support guy.  He, when he connects to a PC, is capable of great depths of exploration of that character.  Handles rules like a conductor, but prefers playing over GMing.

Then me.  I'm a GM who I suspect puts in middlin' amounts of prep...wants players to have a blast...and has a tendency to let visuals drive color over description.  Players in the past have felt that I"m a bit of pushover perhaps... I dunno.. I'm a lousy self critic to say much about my GM style. 

I had yesterday's ep in mind for some time, but only crafted together at the very last minute, Saturday morning at 7:30.  Despite that, I got the 3 major NPC villains in working shape (as in, everything is written out for me on the front page of the chargen sheet) and jotted a bunch of notes down, grabbed a couple of visuals and off to the game I went.  This is one of my shorter prep times for this game.

Since it was our 4th game, I felt like the mechanics were really being absorbed.  Early in the adventure, lots of small social skill roles were made, although Stakes were set on a couple and this paved the way for the large combat scene later.  Erin claims to not "get/retain" mechanics.  However, with the gentlests of reminders from Eric, she popped right back to speed.  Eric is great with Erin, I have never seen a man so supportive in a gaming situation of his wife before.  Heck, he explains rules to me and Bob, who both own the rules.  I gave Eric a lot of responsibility, running an ally NPC, helping Erin and looking up a couple niggling rules problems... he handled it all with grace.

Bob and Erin right outta the gate are the most socially oriented of the players and characters, hatching very smart, clever schemes.  Eric chimed in with a couple of wrinkles and they had completely delighted me with their plans, as I had not even considered them, but were so genre, so WUXIA, so operatic... I loved it.

And we had an enormous set piece battle, although I had no idea it would start when it did (Bob forcing my hand by attacking the evil monk in "a fit of righteous revenge!")... combat is crunchy...but it was so entertaining that we didn't seem to mind... everyone was engaged until the very end, when Erin obviously got a little tired, and starting to pick through some plant catalogues...but when asked something or her turn came up, she instantly came back.  After this immense combat was over, she dropped the catalogues completely, and was right back in plotting and scheming as the end really changed the landscape of some supporting nPC cast members.

WotG has some great fiddly bits for players.  They can award each other Joss (rough analog to Fate, Hero, Artha pts), something that happend a lot.  I hold input on awarding Deeds (necessary to gaining rank in the Wulin) and they all toss out stuff, recounting the adventure from their various POVs and what was noteworthy enough for Deed awarding.  The River and JOss are both ways of choosing when IT matters, by getting extra dice to roll (or using Corrupt Joss to take away dice from the opponent's pool, something they all gleefully love doing).

All in all a great game.

What interests me though, is that WotG is so similar to Exalted in lots of ways, dice pools, big splashy powers, big passion plays... and reading several of the Exalted threads right before the Saturday game probably helped.  But again, here is where I think System Matters... or System Points To A Way?!?... many of the disasterous pitfalls that I was reading about in the Exalted threads seem nicely stepped around by WotG in my experience. 

Do Lores, Joss, Deeds... are they helping players have fun, helping me have fun?  In a way that Exalted doesn't seem to?  Or am I just lucky that I had 3 players yesterday that were all on the same page as I.  I simply do not know.

Hey,

Cool thread topic. Help me out a little 'cause I'm behind on my games reading.

You described Lore, or sort of did, but I need a little more. A player buys it, right? Does the typical cost of a Lore (and the number that seems typical to buy) cut into costs of other things in any significant way? In other words, does not taking Lore(s) mean a kicker-ass character in a way which matters?

It seems as if Lore gets subdivided in some funny way. How's that go?

What are Joss and Deeds? (not the words; I know them; the rules) How did they get directly involved during your play session?

Best, Ron

Sessions that rock, so nice to hear.

WotG really intrigues me.  Could you talk about learning the system and how you broke it down to both teach it and learn it?

For example, if someone asks me how they should pick up Burning Wheel, I suggest playing through a Fight! and a Duel of Wits using pre-gen characters before playing an actual session.  Any advice of that kind for WotG, a game I have been eyeing for a while now.

Thanks.

Okay, quickie Weapons of the Gods primer.

I'll answer Ron's Lore question.  A player *may* buy a Lore or a GM may just grant a Lore.  Either option is cool.  The book is quite explicit about anyone can pick up the book and read any Lore they want.  Then the PC has the gist of that Lore.  The designers want the players to have access to this complicated mythic China in a way that is easy to digest.  This is not an info control sluice... just an info management.

But to "truly comprehend" as in that kung fu movie version of knowing and understanding, my PC REALLY gets IT!.... then one has to make a Learning check (which I often handwave because I want the PCs to get it), they buy the Lore for 1 pt (I'm giving out 4-7 xp/destiny).  Then there are usually 2-4 bonus buy-ins... all of them optional.  They pretty much break down into Subplot Destiny entanglement... as in, player/PC WILL cross paths with X.  X could be real cool persona or cool weapon of the god... or even a romantic situation.  Then there are actual game mechanic bonuses... Get +5 when dealing with X.  Poison, Monster/Demon X, someone elses Kung Fu style... all pretty cool stuff.

My players don't seem to think it cuts into their buying of other things.  Right now, there is so much to buy, but I'm still surprised and impressed that each has bought into at least one Lore and one Lore "bonus".  However, I feel that this might be a group by group basis...it could vary wildly.

The Gist of the System.

It is a dice pool system using 10 siders.  However, you are looking for pairs, triples, quads etc of dice.  Higher is better.  If I roll 2 Threes, this becomes "23", "2" for being the number of matched dice, "3" being the acual die number in the match.  3 Nines becomes "39",  0s are counted as Zero.  So, 2 Zeros is a "20".  If you do NOT roll a pair, you generally take the Highest number and add to 10.  So if the 8 is your highest, it becomes "18"... which, by the way, is the TN for the average Adventure Important roll. 

Easy:  15
Avg: 18
Hard: 20
Heroic: 30
Legendary: 40

The game designers have a percentage chart printed in back part of the book of the die progression... it is really impressive... but it is too long to go into here.  Suffice to say, it isn't as wild and exploding as one might think.

Often, you ar rolling 4 to 8 dice.  I think 8 is the max, actually.

The River.
When you get a pair or more, you have the option of not using the dice, but floating  one, two or more of them to the River.  There, these dice stay until they can be matched with a die roll for uber rolls.  So, I roll a 0,0,4, 8,9 on 5 dice.  The skill check I only need an 18... so I don't use the 2 Os and I "float" them to the River.  {Or maybe I want to fail at a skill check, I've seen that happen for story reasons}.

Now, when I roll down the line against the big bad, I get 4,4,5, O,O.... now 24 is not bad... but if pull the 2 0s out of my River and add it to my 2 0s just rolled... I get a 40!!  That's legendary!!!  In actual play, I've seen devestating Legendary hits mitigated by equally Legendary blocks and dodges... which I think keeps in the spirit of wuxia wackiness.

We really, REALLY feel that the die rolling convention FEELS wuxia to us.  In a way, percentage dice wouldn't or a d20 or even a fistul of d6s ala Hero.

Xia Joss and Corrupt Joss.
Basically, your Fate/Hero pts.  Xia Joss means you can add a die roll AFTER or before you make a roll.  Corrupt Joss means you get to take a die from an opponent's roll BEFORE they roll.  Teh system encourages giving Joss out frequently... and a double 0s automatically gain you a Joss... Xia if the roll succeeds at the task, Corrupt if it doesnt.  Players can have a max of 10 of each Joss... but tend to fluctuate wildly between 2 and 7 in practice that I've seen.

I have a quibble with the term Corrupt Joss.  It sounds like Dark Force pts... but it doesn't have impact on personae.  I think a better term should ahve been used.

Deeds and Virtues
There are 5 positive and 5 negative Virtues.  PCs need to get 5 of one type before they can ascend ot the next rank.  They can continue to gather Destiny (ie, xp), but cannot spend it.  My players get a huge kick out of assigning Virtues at the end of the game session, as there are Loyalty, Righteousness, Ferociousness etc.

Stats
YOu have 5 stats based on Jade/Wood = Might
Crimson/Fire=Speed
Gold/Earth= Presence
Silver/Water=Wu Wei (sensativity? Perception?)
White/Metal=Genius.

Under each stat is 5 skills.  Wu Wei has Awareness, Investigation, Ranged, Senses, Stealth.  Awareness and Senses sound similar, but Sense is that snap instinct, Awareness tends to be more contemplative and social... like, is Duke Iron Hand uncomfortable around the Princess? is an Awareness situation.

So, the stats have numbers ranging from 1 to 8 or10.  If my Wu Wei is 4, that is how many dice I roll.  Skills can be higher than their corresponding stat, but tend not to be.

Kung Fu
All the kung fus are based on color.  Heart Breaking Blade, a kung fu of fast sword techniques, is based on Crimson/Fire.  Each kung fu has 4 to 8 techniques.  Each rank costs the corresponding number in Chi of the appropriate color.  So when using a rank 2 Heart Breaking Blade, I spend 2 Crimson Chi.  This is the heart of the strategy in WotG.  At the end of the round, I get 1 Chi back of EVERY color.  UNLESS!  I've taken damaged.  If I'm sufficiently damaged, I have to chose a color that is "Blocked", ie, it don't recover anymore for this fight.  Obviously, I'm going to NOT Block my Crimson Chi, as it is my engine for Heart Breaking Blade.

There is quite a bit more.  Last thing I'll mention.  Advantages and Disadvantage modifiers.  You take the best.  So, if you are Blind -10, fighting on teh ground -5, and cursed with bad luck -5...you only take the highest modifier... Blind -10.  And these are kung fu warriors of legend.  Blind is bad, but not insurmountable.  Heck, you can Block and Dodge in your sleep! with a -20.-20 or +20 is the highest mods.  This keeps things simple and it keeps things very wuxia.  Don't have to add a lot of mods, you just take the best and move on.

Now.  How did I teach this.
Well, first up, I did somethign I rarely like to do.  I made all the PCs for the players, because we were pressed for time and we had only one rule book.  I tailored each PC to the players after some phone and e-mail back and forth.  And I did a great job, if I may say so myself, as all of them really engaged with their players (pictures help!).  Eric and Erin, the husband and wife, are brother and sister PCs (their decision) and ERic was easy as I know him really well.  Erin wasn't.  But just based on a couple of peeks at previous characters, I knew she loved animals.  So her PC can speak with animals, as can ERics (they were raised by wolves).  I knew she liked strong, but cute women...so I made Lotus Maul diminuative, but she is the strongest Jade/Wood/ Might character in the game.... she looks tiny, but weilds a great club like it was a light baton.  She LOVED that.

So.  In my first adventure.  I had my 4 "student" PCs hurrying back to their poisoned sifu.  Each of them got a scene on the trip back.  Each scene worked and built on a rule situation/progression.

1st scene:  skill checks, the river (contest of strength betwen Lotus and a river bargeman)
2nd scene:  Kung Fu marvels.  How to use kung fu and look good and do style things (Wandering Spear shows off for a 12 yr. old)
3rd scene:  Combat (a friendly duel to see who passes on the bridge and who has to swim)
4th scene:  Combat w/ mooks (showing how a "wulin" can take on 20 guys and have some expectation of winning).

Still, to be honest, it took us until the 4th ep to really hit our stride with the rules.  Much of this can be attributed to each session is a month apart. 

Storn wrote: But to "truly comprehend" as in that kung fu movie version of knowing and understanding, my PC REALLY gets IT!.... then one has to make a Learning check

Storn wrote:
Now.  How did I teach this.
Well, first up, I did somethign I rarely like to do.  I made all the PCs for the players, because we were pressed for time and we had only one rule book.  I tailored each PC to the players...

1st scene:  skill checks, the river (contest of strength betwen Lotus and a river bargeman)
2nd scene:  Kung Fu marvels.  How to use kung fu and look good and do style things (Wandering Spear shows off for a 12 yr. old)
3rd scene:  Combat (a friendly duel to see who passes on the bridge and who has to swim)
4th scene:  Combat w/ mooks (showing how a "wulin" can take on 20 guys and have some expectation of winning).

Paka, doing the teaching structure like that really worked for us.  It gave us enought of the basics, that despite a once/month game, we manage to get back to rules ease pretty quickly... and this last one was really rules easy except for a couple of points that I can't remember specifics... but was no more so than any other game I've ever played.

There is also a pretty good module for download called Asupicious Beginnings.  It does something very similar... and seems like a great jumping off point for a campaign.  I would have used it (and I *never* use published adventures)...but I had already started playing before it came out.

I may have misread it, but I'm pretty sure that you can get a Lore Sheet by either making a Learning check or buying it. I don't think you have to make the Learning check if you pay the Destiny for it and I don't think you have to pay the Destiny for it if you make the Learning check (although making the Learning check requires downtime)

As another GM who almost never uses published adventures, I found 'Asupicious Beginnings' to be fantastic, and a great way to introduce the system and feel to the players.

I'm fairly sure that the rule re: Loresheets and making the Study roll *or* buying the Loresheet with Destiny is correct. Overall the Destiny costs seem low enough that in general characters would not be too negatively impacted in buying them.

Loresheets seem an excellent concept for allowing players to formally indicate an interest in certain setting material, although the in-character cost might turn out to be offputting. In general though, how did you find the rules and thier application? In our first game I definately felt there were too many dice rolls being made (for example, in the adventure mentioned, a scene where the characters are engaged in a conflict with a group of mooks and two named characters .. there didn't seem to be a good way of handling three Rivers, although I might have missed something?)

With NPCs, I don't worry about Joss... but I just jot down the River on their respective character sheets as we go through a combat.  Last game I did, I had 3 NPCs, and managed it pretty well... certainly better than the time before. 

I just sorta had a running tally along the right side of the character sheet, crossing off ones that I used, adding ones that I "flowed" into the River.

My feeling on Rivers and Joss and those "pick your moment" mechanics are really there for the Players.  If I forget to look at badguy X's River... I don't feel bad.  After all, I'm the GM, I make up the guys, I even can craft some of the situation (an ambush for example)...I could make unbeatable badguys if I was a jerk or untenable situations.  I don't want that, so I tend to craft my badguys slightly tougher than the good guys, but don't pay as much attention to River and Joss (or co-gm stance resources might be a overall term).  But I'm a strong believer in letting the players be better than the opposition at times too... especially in wuxia films... purposively putting up lesser opponents...and giggling with glee as the players whip the tar outta of 'em. 

Combat is die-intensive...something that I've been moving away from for some time... my Savage Worlds games, despite many die *types*, has no where near the number of rolls that we are doing in WotG.  But the consensus is that the die rolling mechanic is fun.  And I find, looking at the dice and getting the number is actually quite quick...compared to L5R, which also uses dice pools and adding the kept dice together.  So even though there are lot of die rolls, the comprehension of the die rolls is a fraction of Hero superheroic damage resolution or L5R shifting TN resolutions.

As for Lores, the advantages bought so far, and the purchasing of the Lores has seemed to be wholeheartedly grabbed by the players.  I kept stressing it was optional...that I didn't want to hoist anything on them... but they seemed to like them and grabbed what they wanted anyway.  Which I think is precisely the Lores function.

I"m not sure if that helped.

One thing that has sped up my combat handling of the game is my own custom character sheets, which gets the effects of combat, 3 martial art styles with 4 ranks, all the stats and all the skills onto the front page.  I'm a big believer in having as much info at the fingertips as possible and to not have to look in the book.  There is a link to it on the Eos forum here:
http://www.eos-press.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=897

I recently got the WotG book myself and I've just started reading it. Unfortunately, I don't have it with me right now, but I believe there is a section that contains a suggested table to use for NPC's and the rolls they would get when facing a PC.

Basically, it seems the idea to speed up combat (and reduce rolling) is to have a fixed or average difficulty for an NPC based on his rank. I believe the highest it went up to was like 24 or 27 (two 4's / two 7's). Would this address some of the issues mentioned in regards to keeping tabs on the river and joss of NPC's?

I was wondering how that mechanic actually worked out in actual play, but my group hasn't had a chance to play WotG and I'm afraid it might be a looong time before that happens.

The Social Combat/Magical Curse system, all under the category of Secret Arts, also has a lot of potential. It's obscured by way too much fluff writing and a lot of unnecessary repetition in the layout, which makes you think that Medicine, Divination, Secret Arts of Intrigue (social combat) and Daoist Magic are all different systems. They're not, they're all Secret Arts with different names and a few different effects, but a lot of similar ones.

The actual way it works is that the Secret Arts user rolls the relevant skill (Medicine, Inspire, Learning, etc) to try to impose an effect, called a Chi Condition, on a target. Sometimes, like in the case of Intrigue, it can be resisted by a stat like Confidence.

Chi Conditions are a bonus or penalty effect - ATTACHED TO a specific condition of behavior.

"If you continue to mess with my daughter, you'll have -5 to all your Might-based rolls!"

"Your destiny is to wage war on the Hell Clan, so you have +1 to Crimson Chi so long as you continue to fight them."

In other words you cannot force a change in behavior with an Intrigue or Prediction, but you can attach carrots and sticks to particular behaviors. Thus a PC or NPC is merely encouraged to act a certain way.

A lot of Secret Arts mechanics involve mutating existing Chi Conditions by moving them around the Chinese Five-Element Wheel through Elemental Progression, flipping them to their opposites via Yin-Yang Technique, etc. Which is very, very fitting with how Chinese Medicine and Daoist Magic are supposed to work.

"I've used my mastery of accupressure points to turn your painful fever into a kind of mental haze. Now instead of burning with too much heat and suffering physically, your mental faculties are reduced. But that's okay, we just needed to get you back into fighting shape for the tournament tomorrow. Who cares if your brain falls out your ears?" :)

It's all very, very cool, and possibly the most successful mapping of Chinese magic to RPG mechanics I've ever seen.

I should add - the Secret Arts mechanics empower the players to create Chi Conditions by - in some cases - merely observing that they were always there to begin with! For instance, if the GM introduces a grumpy innkeeper NPC, a courtier with the Story of Self ability can say "I observe the innkeeper for an Anger Passion towards customers who don't pay up on time," and the GM will have to give a low difficulty since it matches the description of the NPC. If the courtier succeeds in the roll, he defines the Chi Condition on the NPC, complete with stat effects.

All in all, it allows the players to narrate into existence Passions, Inspirations, Curses or Influences on NPCs.

Of course if someone tries to define a very unlikely Chi Condition that would be out-of-character, the difficulty of the roll will be much higher.

Thanks Ptikachu for explaining that part of the game much better than I could have.

I don't have a courtier/scholar.  I have a doctor, Bob's Dr. Ting no Ping.  So, we haven't delved into the Story of Self aspect of the game.  Partly because I was confused as all get out by that section... partly, it hasn't come up.

In retrospect, the way Erin plays her Lotus Maul, Lotus would make a good courtier.  A "low" society one to be sure, as she is a bouncer and barmaid, but still Erin is always trying to understand and often help the NPCs around her.  It is one of the delights playing with Erin, I have to say.

As for the medical stuff, we've dabbled, but there the main plot line is the Sifu who has been poisoned and is in a coma for a year and a day before he dies.  That main plot prevents Dr. Ting no Ping from "fixing" the sifu and Bob has been quite gracious about that metaplot situation... that's what the quest is all about, finding the means to save the sifu.

To make up for that, I've made sure that being a doctor has opened doors for Ting in the backstory.. he is a beloved pillar of the community, has the governesses ear and the governess's daughter's affections.  And some of the Lore of the wicked, evil Writhing Sickness Cult has made it into his hands, allowing him to work on antidotes and stopgap measures of the WS Cult's use of HIGHLY dishonorable poisons.