Well, we had a game with drama powered entirely by The Shadow of Yesterday's Keys mechanic.  Good times, good times.

The general idea that Sydney pitched us was off of my throw-away line of "Battlestar Galactica, but in a dungeon."  Basically, there was a great land, and then it fell into corruption.  The capital city was abandoned and overgrown (and all magically nasty) as people vied for control in the country-side.  Then The Horde invaded, because really who's gonna stop 'em?  So our people are getting slaughtered and what's the only place so crazy-ass dangerous that even the Horde won't follow us?  The capital city, of course.

This was our first session:  we created characters, and made the terrible dash from the country-side to and across the only remaining bridge into the capitol.

• Khaidu (played by Jennifer):  A hillman of the same general stock as The Horde, but from within the kingdom.  Neither loyal to the old kingdom, nor opposed to it, he has a soft-spot for the weak and helpless ("Key of Conscience") and a savage ("Key of the First Wolf" ... basically Conan-style cool barbarism) willingness to fight ("Key of Bloodlust") for anything and everything he thinks is right.
• Father Videl (played by Eric):  Our only real talker, Father Videl is charged ("Key of Mission") to guard ("Key of Guardian") a holy relic ("Secret of Chalice") that ... well, it's probably bad-holy.  Probably holy to a God we aren't gonna like too well.  That's cool.  He still has complete faith ("Key of Faith") in the God, whatever it turns out to be.
• Yoshi (played by me):  As a young-ish girl, Yoshi's reputation was ruined by a casanova NPC (Severus) who claimed to have had a liaison with her.  He hadn't, but he said he had.  Why?  Because he's an asshole.  Yoshi's father didn't give any weight to her claims that nothing of the sort had happened, and so she was exiled from her family and given over to an organization of fallen women who act as assassins and spies.  So, basically, she does terrible things that men tell her to do ("Key of New Moon") and suffers a huge amount ("Key of Masochist") when she tries (and so far inevitably fails) to avoid those missions of violence and bloodshed ("Key of Cowardice").  On her most recent mission she was sent to infiltrate the Horde.  Nobody cares that she looks nothing like them and can't speak their language ... she's expendable.  But Khaidu saved her, and Yoshi fell for him hard ("Key of Unrequited Love).

These three characters together were, as Sydney put it, "an XP-generating machine."  After character creation we played for about two hours and I think between the three of us we totalled more than 40 points of XP.  From what I've seen, that's a fair amount in TSoY terms, but all of it was totally inevitable (well, except pushing the old folks off the bridge ... I could have escaped that).

Each of us had a "gift that keeps on giving" Key or two.  Coward ("It's the Horde!  Run for our lives!"), Conscience ("I've got to act to save these helpless peasants") and Mission ("Got to get away and protect the Chalice") were all so exactly aligned with the direction that the story clearly had to go anyway that we just kept writing down XP awards, one after the other.

Then we had our inherent (and dysfunctional) personality dynamics.  Yoshi wanted Khaidu to be safe ("Coward," "Unrequited Love") but he wanted to take risks ("Bloodlust," "Conscience") and so he'd tell her what to do and she'd cave ("New Moon"). 

We haven't yet gotten a chance to mix Eric in to this very strongly, although I think we'll have equally good dynamics:  Videl will demand that things be done the traditional way ("Key of Ancestors") and Khaidu will have contempt for civilized society ("First Wolf") and Yoshi will be torn between which one to obey ("New Moon").

Buying new Keys mid-game was totally the awesome.  Khaidu ended up facing some of his country-men in battle, and we all said "Wow!  He doesn't have Key of Outcast!  He totally needs Key of Outcast for this!" so Jennifer bought it and it basically paid for itself in XPs during the course of that combat.  Character elaboration on the fly!

And then Videl was set to abandon a whole passel of innocents and flee the hordes into the city to protect his chalice.  'cuz that's the direction all his Keys pointed.  But he said "Man, I don't feel like I've got a choice here ... or, rather, if I choose to stick around and help it's at the cost of all the XPs I could earn otherwise."  So he picked up "Key of Conscience," and immediately worked it hard by risking himself (and his mission) in the defense of the common people.

But what I really, really loved was how the Keys rewarded us for making all those dysfunctional relationships really, really obvious.  I think my favorite moment was when Yoshi's father (and his cavalry unit) were preparing to pretty much ride through the peasants who were clogging the bottleneck of the bridge, Yoshi stood before him and said (in her quiet, desperate way) "These people need help..."

He smacked her down with the flat of his blade.  Over a few exchanges we set stakes like "If I win he does the right thing, if he wins then he gets to dismiss my very existence as irrelevant" and my personal favorite:  "If I win this conflict then I can raise my eyes to look at him."  Lost that one, and ended up with Yoshi averting her face in shame and anguish, wracked with quiet sobs.

Then, of course, Khaidu was all "Is this how civilized people act?  I have nothing but contempt for a man who would abuse an innocent girl that way," and Yoshi desperately interceded.  "No, Khaidu, please ... You don't understand.  It is right for him to beat me, for he is my father!"

Heh.  Smell the dysfunction.

What makes me crazy is that I can see how really, really good this stuff is when it works ... but I have the feeling that we're applying some unrecognized skills when we make the combinations of Keys that interact in that way.  Does TSoY always work out that well?  'cuz if so, wow!

Wow. I'm just...wow.

That's sounds like big fun.  One thing I spot immediately is that you guys are Keying off each other - in my TSOY game, most of the Keys are external, and it doesn't sizzle quite so much.  There are still some XP engine combos (My PC has Key of Clan, Key of Commander, and Key of the Cripple, all of which came up in every scene last night), but we've just started tying our Keys closely among each other like you did from the start. 

40 XP, 3 people - that's a goodly amount.  But it really depends on how you guage advances whether it is a satisfying amount.  We've spent some time clarifying what sorts of circumstances warrant 5 XP awards, which are the top fuel dragsters of the reward system. 

Do you think it was just good luck that you looked within the group to tie Keys together, or is that an artifact of your experience as players? If so, what in particular drove those choices?

My personal opinion is that it wasn't good luck, it was done deliberately.

For instance, the moment Jen said that she wanted to play a rough, taciturn barbarian I said "Oh, I am so totally taking 'Key of Unrequited Love.'"

But I think, beyond that, I figured out what sort of interactions were going to net me big XPs, and I tried to shift things around so that other players would get big loads of XPs off of their Keys by giving me the conditions I needed to get big XPs off of mine.

To be specific:  With New Moon (XPs for giving in to male domination), Masochist (XPs for fighting about it first and losing) and Coward (XPs for non-violence) I get big rewards whenever I'm in situations where Yoshi wants to avoid violence, pushes a man to flee with her, but is forced to defer to his desire to stay and fight.

So the moment I saw Khaedu (and his Bloodlust + Conscience Keys) I knew I needed to latch on to that.  Every time I help Jennifer get points off of those two Keys, I very easily get points off of all my Keys.  So I supported the idea of a helpless peasant group, under his protection and domination, with Yoshi filling the dissenting lieutenant role (at least a little).

And now I'm eyeing other combinations.  Key of Coward gives you three points for resolving a combat through non-violent means.  With The Baron and Khaedu in close quarters, vying for control over the direction of where everyone goes next, I can play that role of desperate peace-maker very easily.  Get in between the two of them, get a little bloodied (Masochist), convince Khaedu to back down (Coward), possibly by trying to gain his affection (Unrequited Love) and it's a hefty payout.

Now why would Khaedu want to get into a fight with The Baron?  Bloodlust, of course.  Conscience, so long as the Baron is abusing the weak and helpless (which isn't hard to arrange).  Key of the First Wolf, so long as the Baron is using the high moral ground as a "civilized person" to justify the things he's doing.

It won't be at all hard to convince Jennifer to have Khaedu get into that fight, so long as the fight is presented in a way that appeals to all those keys.  I profit by facilitating her Keys in a specific direction.

The two short games of TSOY I've ran was more like Jason's experience - the players didn't automatically hook their characters into each other in this way. And when both players in one of the groups saw how easy it was to take Keys to get experience for things they planned to do anyway, they actually avoided taking those Keys because it felt like cheating! Despite my attempts to persuade them to try it and see what happens.
So I definitely think you're correct that your players were using specific player skills that were well-suited to this game, and my players hadn't learned those skills yet.

Darren wrote:
The two short games of TSOY I've ran was more like Jason's experience - the players didn't automatically hook their characters into each other in this way. And when both players in one of the groups saw how easy it was to take Keys to get experience for things they planned to do anyway, they actually avoided taking those Keys because it felt like cheating! Despite my attempts to persuade them to try it and see what happens.
So I definitely think you're correct that your players were using specific player skills that were well-suited to this game, and my players hadn't learned those skills yet.

Clinton wrote:

Darren,

That is super-interesting, seriously.

Darren wrote:
I distinctly remember feeling this queasy sensation as my indie-fu forcefield weakened, and doubts crept in - "you know, you have a point there. Um, let's try it anyway and see what happens."  Has no one else seen that kind of thinking? I know I can remember a time when I'd have felt the same.

"Key guilt" - it's real.  One guy in our group has been very reticent about stepping up and declaring that he's hit a Key, and we've made a solemn pact to punch him in the arm every time he doesn't take XP he ought to.  Positive reinforcement is not HARDCORE.

Jason wrote:
"Key guilt" - it's real.  One guy in our group has been very reticent about stepping up and declaring that he's hit a Key, and we've made a solemn pact to punch him in the arm every time he doesn't take XP he ought to.  Positive reinforcement is not HARDCORE.

Thanks for the entertaining and educating thread Tony.

Regarding who should keep track of the Key XP, here is a quote directly from the rulebook (italics mine):

"The wrote:
Giving out experience points

As a Story Guide, you are responsible for binding the game together into an enjoyable narrative. You may be considered responsible by the players for their experience points and advancement. They are, of course, as wrong as they can be. When you see a player have her character act in a way that should earn her experience from a Key, feel free to announce that out loud. Feel just as free not to: that character is that player's creation, and she should well be playing attention to what's going on, and be invested in her character's advancement.

With the exception of Key Scenes, which you are responsible for, an ideal flow of experience point giving should go like this:

    Jack, a player: My character, Willis, leaps forward, his ratkin legs kicking to land in front of the sword-blow coming down on Jeph. (rolls) Success! Hey, that hits one of my Keys. 2 experience, right?

    Jennifer, the Story Guide: A-yup.

We punch because we love.  Seriously, we know it is his responsibility but we're trying to help in a good-natured and potentially painful way. 

I wonder how many other games suffer from something akin to "Key Guilt."

I think Capes does.  For instance, people could narrate for other players' characters but they often they don't.  Even when presented with the option, they'll shy away from it, because they have an ingrained sense that it's naughty.

That's a really interesting way to view the design challenge in some of these games:  How do you convince people that they're allowed to play the game by the rules?

Wow, Tony. Good question.

I don't have a good answer right now. But I will say that I got to play Capes last night with a group that contained some seriously old-skool gamers and... well... "key guilt" was only one of several* problems, but man, it was everywhere in that game.

And not just self-policing, either. They were doing it to each other. "Oh no, you can't say that because it's about my guy and I can say that doesn't happen." Huh? Argh.

*some of them had not even read the friggin' game. "oh yeah, I kind of paged through it." gah.

Hi Tony,

but I have the feeling that we're applying some unrecognized skills when we make the combinations of Keys that interact in that way.

Whoa -- I just found this thread, having gone on a trip the day after the game. (Packing until 130 am... feh).

From the GM's perspective -- having not GM'd a game in, I kid you not, ten frickin' years*:

I love the way this game lets you change your character on the fly, in response to the push-and-pull (no, do not try to define these terms) among the people around the table, e.g.:

1) Jenn's Khaidu: She talks about how "he's not chosen a side, yet," but how he's protecting this ragtag band of refugees; we all toss details about his tribe was given a "join us or die" by the Horde, and he left; and then, on the spot, I make the Horde scouts chasing him part of his old tribe, with given names and bitter memories and all, and Jenn buys "Key of the Outcast" on the spot.

2) Eric's Brother Vedis (not Videl, I think): Eric comes to the session with a two-page typed-up history of his character and the religious order he belongs to, all centered on this holy Chalice; he defies a powerful NPC (the Baron) to keep custody of the chalice; in the big fight before the Long Bridge, he rolls massive bonus dice from his Prayer skill into his totally unskilled horse-riding and charges unharmed through the clashing cavalry and running refugees, gets across the Bridge before anyone else, and is at the broken gates of the old capital.... and then Eric (well trained by Capes in the art of "I wanna get me some of that action!") looks at Jenn and Tony, who've been farming XP merrily off each other and are in the thick of the action, looks at all the Keys encouraging him to ride his guy through the gate and out of the scene, and says, in essence, "That's not fun! I'm changing my character!" and buys Key of Conscience as he turns around and rides back -- which is a beautiful bit of drama totally incentivized by the mechanics.

Note that Eric wasn't tied into the other player characters at all to start -- though he did tie himself strongly to the setting and situation -- and the "I wrote up two pages of character background before play started!" thing is often a recipe for Big Time Blah. But the system made his character's relative isolation in the story (and from the XP mill) so clear, and the way out so obviously appealing, that Eric could turn the character on a dime. (As I say, Capes was great training for this, too).

I've always been a "build the world, turn the players loose, let 'em make trouble for themselves and each other" kind of GM. (I've not outlined a plot since the first one-shot I ever ran in freshman year of college; that last game I GM'd, ten years ago, was a homebrew Stat + Specialization + 1d6 system in a one-shot called Cyperpunk Highschool where the players gleefully wiped each other out over the course of a few hours and I hardly had to run a single NPC). This system certainly facilitates that.

I had two "uh oh" moments when I worried I might have slammed the GM-force button: Once when Eric's Brother Vedis immediately got into a social conflict (bringing down the pain) with the Baron over whether Vedis would show him the artifact he was carrying or not, and another time when, after Jenn's Khaidu defied his former tribesman, I impulsively set the stakes as "Okay, they're trying to gut you now." In both cases I was seriously afraid I'd deprotagonize the players -- but in fact this system makes it damn hard to beat down a PC over something they care about. Vedis's blaze of faith carried the day with the Baron ("Sir, we have no time... This [indicating the artifact] is important -- I am not -- kill me if you must and take it with you to a place of safety.") Khaidu, even badly battered from successive social conflicts with Tony's Yoshi, still beat down the tribesmen over an extended Bring Down the Pain: It cost Jenn's character, but I realized that I was never as close to a dead PC as I'd feared.

Which brings me to a question for any experienced TSOY'ers out there: How do you calibrate the power of NPCs? The warning in the rules that having any dice in Pools makes an NPC very dangerous really proved out for me, as I'd assigned all of my NPC pool dice (I created them using the regular PC generation process, then halved the Pool size as per the advice in the rules) and then found myself holding back from actually rolling any of those pool dice, which is the one time I felt like I was doing the old GM-fudge dance... but then I'd been warned not to give the NPCs pool dice in the first place.

As we go into next week's session, I'm looking in particular for guidance on building:
1) low-level but not trivial "interesting obstacle" NPCs
2) PC-equivalent "potential longterm rival" NPCs
3) highly powerful but not overwhelming "boss" NPCs.

Suggestions?

Hey Sydney,

I'll address your NPC-power questions, but first:

It cost Jenn's character, but I realized that I was never as close to a dead PC as I'd feared.

John, you're my man. Thanks!

I'd been tempted by letting NPCs hit Keys and advance, and I even found myself talking as if they were in that first session -- when Khaidu was being berated by a (former) fellow-tribesman, with both of them having the "Key of the First Wolf" cultural trait that gives you 1XP for "failing to conceal your contempt for civilized ways," I actually broke off in the middle of my in-character diatribe to say, "He's totally gettin' his Key on." But, actually doing the mechanics was something I'd backed off from. Now I'll charge right in.

Gods of Games!  Dieties of Dice! 

I HAVE to GET this game!!!

This sounds awesome!  Great thread, folks!

Speaking of deities, the full list of deities for this campaign and their attendant Keys & Secrets is in this thread.

The specific Keys & Secrets taken by PCs were:

Sydney wrote:

[Tony's character Yoshi has...]

Key of the Wounded Moon
"My life is not my own."
All people know the tragic story of Kthonné, the moon, favorite daughter of Asorion and Svulkë, she who was seduced and violated by the First Wolf, gave birth to the Stag King of the fay, and went mad, hiding her bright face in shame and sorrow. But you were dedicated to her service by your father: perhaps because he was too poor to feed you as a girl; perhaps because he had no dowry to marry you as a maiden; perhaps because you, like the moon, were raped, and your father could not bring himself to cleanse his honor with your blood in the ancient manner. ("Raped" in this culture means sex without your father's consent; yours is legally immaterial). Now you stand apart from men and women both, empowered to heal the righteous and slay the wicked, yet never truly free.
Typical backgrounds include Sword Virgin (woman warrior-healer) or Dagger Bride (spy and traitor-hunter; always a raped woman with no honor left to lose).
Gain 1 XP every time you deny yourself something in deference to a male authority figure, such as a Magus, nobleman, or other devotee of Asorion.
Gain 2 XP every time you endure danger or suffering on behalf of another, with no benefit to yourself.
Gain 5 XP every time you do something to benefit others that would horrify them if they knew.
You may buy off this Key if you do something you really want to do, just for yourself.

[Eric's character Brother Vedis has...]

Key of the Ancestors
"Guide your unworthy offspring in your path."
Everyone respects the spirits of their ancestors and knows their family legends, but you have devoted yourself entirely to your forefather's path. You can recite your ancestors' names, deeds, and sayings -- and you do so at every occasion to dispel your own doubts and rally or bully your community. You may be rich or poor, but your family is ancient, deeply rooted, and respectable. You are equally likely to be male or female.
Typical backgrounds include noble, guild member (in which case you may have been adopted into your lineage as an apprentice), or farmer.
Gain 1 XP every time you inconvenience yourself or others by rigidly following some ancestral custom or taboo (which, as a player, you are free to invent on the spot).
Gain 2 XP every time you convince others to try something new because it is actually a return to the true ways of the ancestors, really it is.
Gain 5 XP every time you cling to old ways at the peril of your life or another's.
You may buy off this Key by openly rejecting the ancestral ways.

[Jenn's character Khaidu has...]

Key of the First Wolf
"[howling]"
Everyone knows the First Wolf raped the Moon and sired the Stag King of the Fay. No one worships his totem except the outland barbarians and inbred hillfolk -- and you. You know the truth: that all kingdoms fall, all knowledge fades, and even gods come and go, but the ancient powers endure. If other people knew what you worshipped, they would probably kill you for being a werewolf and a traitor: Are you?
Typical backgrounds include backwoods primitive, bandit, deserter from the army, and secret agent for the Horde.
Gain 1 XP every time you fail to conceal your contempt for "civilized" folk.
Gain 2 XP every time you prevail when civilized folk cannot because of your strength, savagery, or cunning.
Gain 5 XP every time you lead others to reject civilized values and embrace the way of the Wolf.
You may buy off this Key by saving someone from the consequences of their own weakness.

[... and Yoshi and Khaidu both have both of the following:]
Secret of the Full Moon
You are blessed by the bright Moon, whose light reveals to you the plotting of your enemies. Whenever you are rolling in a Conflict against someone who is trying to hide anything from you -- themselves, another person, an object, a secret -- you may spend any number of points from your Instinct pool and receive that number of bonus dice.
The character does not have to know or even suspect something is being hidden to use this Secret. The player and the GM should collaborate to allow its use whenever the character is walking into an ambush or talking to someone who seems totally innocent: It is a kind of divine sixth sense, not conscious magic. If the player tries to use this Secret when no one has anything to hide, she gets her Instinct points back.
Cost: 1 Instinct per bonus die.
Requires Key of the Wounded Moon (you are a Sword Virgin or Dagger Bride) or Key of the First Wolf (you are probably a Horde scout or spy).

Secret of the New Moon
You carry the curse of the lunatic Moon, whose darkness shrouds you from your enemies. When you are hiding anything from anyone -- yourself, another person, an object, a secret -- you may spend any number of points from your Instinct pool to give whoever is trying to find out your secret that number of penalty dice.
As with the Key of the Full Moon, the character does not have to know someone is looking for her or trying to uncover her secret for the player to use this Secret.
Cost: 1 Instinct per penalty die.
Requires Key of the Wounded Moon (you are probably a Dagger Bride, although some Sword Virgins have this Secret as well) or Key of the First Wolf (you are probably a Horde scout or spy).

Afterthought:

John wrote: For goons, though, I just assign reasonable abilities and levels (Competent is usually about right for standard henchmen and stuff). If there's a lot of them, I roll them into one character, and give pool points for the extra guys. So, a "character" representing a squad of goons might have a Vigor pool of 3 or so. The cool thing about the way bonus dice work in TSOY is that you can give pool points to goons like this, but it doesn't really make them more powerful, just more reliable. They'll still be capped at Competent (2) + roll (3) = 5, so an Adept or Master PC can still beat them if they care enough.

Storn wrote:
I HAVE to GET this game!!!

Clay wrote:
I assure you it is.

Jason wrote:
(My PC has Key of Clan, Key of Commander, and Key of the Cripple, all of which ...