Is there any person who writing indie games who is making a full-time living from it? I'm just wondering how this compares with so-called mainstream RPG publishers (a number of whom are). Do you think that this position is likely to change?

Simon Rogers
Pelgrane Press Ltd

No.

Some people make enough to pay their car insurance payment, some may make more but I don't think anyone makes a living.

The problem is that you can usually make more in a day job. I had a psychotherapy private practice back in the late 90's. I made a living at it but didn't make as much as I wanted so I fired myself and got an agency job. Doing marketing was just no fun.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

Some folks here are doing a bit more than car insurance unless car insurance is REALLY expensive where you live. :-)  I found these threads

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=19044.0
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=16428.0

I think you'll find them interesting.

Polaris is right now my main, but not only, source of income.  This is a little bit exceptional, though.  I live in China, so the currency exchange favors me by a factor of eight.

yrs--
--Ben

The Guild of Blades guys make a living off of their games, which includes roleplaying games and board games.

Simon, a good deal of the mainstream guys you think are making a living off of RPGs aren't.  Many are supported by spouses, have another job, lump their RPG-writing in with their other writing endeavors, produce and sell things other than RPGs, or other variations on the theme.  Steve Jackson has made far more money with smart investments outside of gaming than he's made within gaming; Wizards of the Coast made more money off of CCGs than RPGs; Dream Pod Nine did design work for film and television in addition to producing books (and you'll note the current financial situation of two of the three I cited, too).

If you are at all familiar with webcomics, the financial reality is very similar.  Sure, the Penny Arcade and PvP guys "make a living drawing comics" -- but their revenue streams include teeshirts, advertising, even some con appearances in addition to print products.  There's lots more happening under the hood than just putting out the obvious front-line product.

Thank you very much for these very useful responses. I'm guessing that Phil Reed is making a full-time living. I'm fairly sure Monte Cook is. There may be others.

Mongoose are (details will follow in an article for Page XX), although they don't follow the indie model - they are comissioning work-for-hire.

What comes across from the threads, and the admirable openess displayed, is that the indie publishing model is at least a way not to lose money in the RPG world, and that's no mean feat.

Simon Rogers
Pelgrane Press Ltd.

Hey Simon...

I'm not sure if by that last post you meant to "close" this thread or not...
But I had one thing to add.

I used the free PDF RPG I had created as a credential when I applied for a job as Content Developer for an online strategy-ish game.
The work I had done for zero pay in creating that RPG helped secure me this new job...

So, although I never made money off of Point of Collapse directly, I helped secure a nice paying, fun job through it.

Hope that adds another angle to the discussion.

I make a living working on RPGs, but that includes not just income from my own games but freelance writing and illustration work. But really I consider that to be all part of the package of what I do for a living.

Yes, the folks here at the Guild make a living these days, or at least the full timers (all two of us) do. But....

It took us 7 years of publishing mostly part time to grow the business tll that point. And along the way we had to invest is darn near all the goodies of a print shop so we could handle all of our production in house. Because in abandoning the distribution tier for many, many of our products we don't sell in large enough quantities now to really make conventional printing and wholeselling of the products worthwhile. We're able to make a living because our production methds allow us to produce in production batches generally anywhere from about 40 to 200 units and at a really good COGS too. We're able to do board and miniature games we otherwise couldn't do and our RPGs cost us about 1/3 of what they would if produced via POD.

But here is the real kicker, if someone had handed me an extra hundred thousand dollars or more back in 1996 when I started publishing, I doubt I would have been any more successful at getting the company up to a profitable and sustainable level than I was. Because when I started I just did not have the experience to know how to effectively operate within the industry. Its not too hard to limp along in distribution moving just enough product to pay for your next print run and operate under the illusion you are "getting somewhere" . But its a whole other realm getting enough support from the other tiers to move volumes large enough to support staff comfortably.

We also began trying the distribution model and also had a few products freelanced back then. It took us about 5 years to really understand that the distribtuion tier wasn't going to work for us as a small business. Maybe someday it will become useful again, but we were burned by it enough times that we're most likely to continue to build our business via alternative means.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com

Ryan - a fascinating answer. Would you mind me asking how many full time (or freelancer-equivalent) workers you have?

Hi Simon,

Can you provide a little more context for dialogue, rather than just a survey? I realize you're gathering data for an article, but I also think this thread would be more helpful for that purpose - and more in tune with goals for the site - if you'd tell us more about the point of the article, or what issue/inquiry you're using for its foundation.

For example, for purposes of the article, why is "making a living" from role-playing publishing an issue in the first place? I'm not asking you this so you can post it and see it attacked, but rather so that the dialogue is more productive for everyone.

At present, all I have to say is "what Joshua and Ryan said!", which isn't very helpful. I think you know my finances with Adept Press, which are best summarized as having about $3000 on hand at any given time, and squinting at the corporate credit card in annoyance. My most serious expenses beyond printing are directly related to promoting others' success in venues like GenCon.

Best, Ron

>>Ryan - a fascinating answer. Would you mind me asking how many full time (or freelancer-equivalent) workers you have?<<

Just two full timers right now. The two principle partners that have been slaving away at the company for the last decade. We have one part time accountant and one part time helper that only works on the weekends and helps us to process orders and do production.

We don't use any freelancers at present, except for a little artwork here and there. Even that we have reduced down to minimums. We do all the layouts, map designs, box packaging, rule books, etc for our board games in house as well as the writing/game design. We then print and produce most evertyhing in house. Though we recently found a means to print our full color game counters through a traditional box printer at a price and quantity we are happy with and we'll be looking to begin printing some game board (we presently do laminated game maps for our board games) and boxes through that same printer for some of our best selling titles. Those we can be reasonably sure we can actually sell a thousand copies of within a 3-5 year spread.

What our company needs most deparately is better editing. However....we've juggled some numbers based on some assumptions (which may or may not be correct) and currently think the increase in sales from having some better edited products would not actually justify the extra cost and logistic overhead of outsourcing our editing to freelancers. So for the moment, we seem to alienate a slice of potential customers who simply can't tolerate some of our editing mistakes. I hate to lose potential customers, but if the cost of getting them is more than what I can make selling to them, hey, well, I'm NOT going to do that. lol. Besides, we are learning more and more there are a LOT of potential customers out there. The well is near bottomless. This might seem a bit backwards, but we don't really design a product intended for a specific clientel, with design a product intended for a specific genre, then go try and find the pool of potential customers it possibly could be sold too.

Otherwise, we now have two computer game programmers working part time on our Massive Multi-Player Online game 1483 Online, and other games of its ilk that will all become part of our Empires of History Online Gaming Network. We have a LOT of board game designs just begging for online conversions so this new direction we are taking as a company has a strong synergy with our current publishing efforts. Anyway, as this venture matures, we'll certainly be hiring those two programmers on full time (one is actually becoming a partner in the business) and if it grows a lot more, we'll eventually add a one or two man staff to do marketing, system management and general support.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com

Making a living?  Shit no.  I'm making about enough to pay for my kid's Montessori preschool.

On the other hand, I work, at most, three hours a day, and Montessori is really expensive.  Furthermore, because I'm not working a day job, I can stay at home with my sons and avoid the costs of putting them in daycare (which would very likely be far more than I could earn working 40 hours a week).

-G.

Ron wrote:

For example, for purposes of the article, why is "making a living" from role-playing publishing an issue in the first place? I'm not asking you this so you can post it and see it attacked, but rather so that the dialogue is more productive for everyone.

At present, all I have to say is "what Joshua and Ryan said!", which isn't very helpful. I think you know my finances with Adept Press, which are best summarized as having about $3000 on hand at any given time, and squinting at the corporate credit card in annoyance. My most serious expenses beyond printing are directly related to promoting others' success in venues like GenCon.

Best, Ron

Thanks man! Excellent answer and I hope lots more people reply to this thread.

I am fascinated by succesful small press RPG publishers who create excellent games part time under the new model without losing money on a huge print run - your Fantasy Heartbreaker (it makes me weep to think about it.)

I'm not sure if this answer is helpful, but here's mine:

I don't remotely make a living at rpgs at least in part because I make no effort to make a living at rpgs. I'm an attorney; my wife's an attorney. We make a very nice wage from our "real" jobs. I don't run my business as a hobby, but I'm in the very odd position of running it to break even rather than running it to pay the bills and sock away money for retirement. I'm confident a could "make a living" at rpgs, but that would require me to vastly alter what my definition of that term is.

Good lord, I hope that didn't come off as snobby as it sounds to me know upon reading it. I was just trying to give a picture of an alternate situation.

I make my living from rpgs, if you consider it being my largest source of income a "living". I don't, however, play by the rules: my lifestyle is geared towards minimal monetary costs (which is compensated by a significant amount of non-monetary sources of living), so for the time being my "living" is minimal. Pretty much the same situation Ben Lehman has. Personally, I consider this a phase of study in preparation for a career in content production, of which rpgs are a part. So I don't have to make a lot of money at this stage, because you don't usually make money from studying, do you?

Hi there,

Justin, that's a pretty solid, realizable goal that ought to be better appreciated among aspirant RPG/game designers, in my view. It's certainly identical with mine, with the minor revision that I like to do a little better than breaking even. A search using my username, "success," specifying the Publishing forum ought to turn up some interesting older threads about it. I think I've successfully debunked the classic dichotomy of hobby/career, as well as provided a real definition of "vanity press" which leaves most large RPG companies with egg on their faces.

The reason I asked Simon to explain his article a little better was to see whether the goal you're describing (and which I describe in earlier threads) was going to be articulated in any way, and as it turns out, I think he appreciates it quite well. So you can probably expect your testimony to be reported fairly, and for your goal's virtues to be outlined.

More generally, as I see it, stating this goal is the very opposite of snobby. It's practical and sound, and accessible to others. It's not our fuckin' fault if barely any RPG company in the past has managed to sustain itself as a business without constant influx of outside funds.

Best, Ron

Not only is it not necessary to make a living at RPG design...I'm not sure its even all that desireable.  

Making a living is a big deal.   You may have a family with children who have needs that must be met.  You may have an entire lifestyle to support to which you're accustomed that needs to be maintained.  You have responsibilities.

This puts an enormous pressure on what your source of living income is.  We all have different motivations for why we work, but ultimately, at some level for all of us, the need to pay the bills is a constant consideration.

When I hear discussions about how professional freelancers are able to churn through thousands of words a day to meet their deadlines in order to get paid I get worried.  How many of those words were written because the author loved them?  How many were written because if they weren't the electric bill wouldn't get paid that month?  How long will that author lovingly linger over what he writes, crafting and recrafting until not only the rules, but the presentation are as perfect as its humanly possible for them to make them?  How long will they do that when there's a deadline and a paycheck on the line?

For me...I want to read, play, enjoy, and discuss games that were written as a labor of love by people who are passionate about what they're creating.  I'm not really all that interested in reading words that were written in order to collect a paycheck, because too often alot of shortcuts were made to get those words written by someones elses arbitrary deadline.

In this the indie gaming scene isn't really any different from the indie music scene, or indie comics, or indie movies (before "indie movie" meant "big studio in disguise").

I'm not sure I ever really want my favorite indie designers (myself included) to EVER be able to make a living at this.  Because as soon as it becomes all about the benjamins the entire nature of the art changes.  You have to start designing for what will sell vs. what your heart tells you to write.

Besides, for most of us, we'd be doing this anyway.  I've been designing games since I was eight.  The fact that I can do it today and make a few bucks at it is gravy.  If I'm looking for a six figure income, that's what my day job is for.

As long as RPG design is just a hobby that pays my way to GenCon I can write what I want, when I want, and how quickly I want.  And it doesn't get published until *I* say its ready...regardless of how many deadlines have passed.  That freedom is way more important to me than making my car payment off of my game sales.

So when you write your article I hope you'll keep in mind that for some of us at least its less a question of *could* we make a living at this, and more a question of "why would we want to?"

Valamir wrote:
I'm not sure I ever really want my favorite indie designers (myself included) to EVER be able to make a living at this.  Because as soon as it becomes all about the benjamins the entire nature of the art changes.  You have to start designing for what will sell vs. what your heart tells you to write.
...

So when you write your article I hope you'll keep in mind that for some of us at least its less a question of *could* we make a living at this, and more a question of "why would we want to?"

Oh enjoying what they do isn't the issue.  I'm sure anybody who sticks with it for any length of time must really like what they're doing.

I'm talking about the difference between a single unified vision where the only person you have to please is yourself and you have the luxury of holding yourself to the highest of standards vs. shared vision where the important choices often involve forced compromises (of everything from content to layout) and the pressures of deadlines and meeting outside standards which often are not as high as the writers own.  One only has to pick a few random splat books off the shelves to see how many times "good enough" was considered "good enough".  Not that every indie game adhers to the highest standards possible by any means.  But being indie and not trying to make a living at it means you have the luxury of making it just the way you want it.

Robin Laws is one of my favorite game designers.  He has yet to put out anything I don't like alot.

That said, I long for the day when he releases 100% his own game, 100% for himself, 100% on his own standards...

Why?  Because every game I've played of his winds up being only 80% finished

Both Feng Shui and Rune were brilliant concepts marred by insufficient polishing and finishing. 

In both Hero Wars and Pelgrane's own Dying Earth one can almost see the contrasting design philosophies fighting with each other right on the pages of the text, the end result being a sort of uneasy collaboration. 

One day I hope to see a game where Mr. Laws does a design completely his where he doesn't have to compromise with either co-designers, the goals of publishers, or the restrictions of someone else's intellectual property and where he doesn't release it until he's convinced its as close to perfect as he can make it.

I'd bet money that the result would blow me away and illustrate completely the difference between a game designed for yourself, and one designed for others.

>>It's not our fuckin' fault if barely any RPG company in the past has managed to sustain itself as a business without constant influx of outside funds.<<

Nothing any company other than our own has done is our fault. For myself, I fully intend to have my company publishing the undisputed number one role playing game eventually, and during my life time. I have the business model that is required to begin that process, but, its going to require about $500,000 to kick start, after which after one year it will become profitable in its efforts and self sustainable. In generally begins with an campaign that will eventually see more than 20 million free copies of a game given away. I can't come close to fronting that $500,000 right now, so my bid to dominate the RPG segment of the industry must wait for a while.

As publishers, weather our company even makes money or not is not really the issue. If our company is a hobby and its a hobby we can afford to spend money on, then its perfectly fine for the company to actually lose money. Just so long as the owner of the company is getting what they want out of its operation.

For a company with a goal to eventually be a full time operation, its really a two step process for all persons who don't enter the game with $500K to $1 Mil in venture capital. The first step is, start small and build a core game, a methodology of publishing and marketing, and a core fan base. In the process of establishing those three things, get the company to break even or making some kind of profit. Without the venture capital backing, this has to be done part time, as its a turkey shoot when you might be able to grow quickly enough to afford any sort of salary. If you can't count on it, you sure as hell better not be needing it. Step two, take your lessons learned from Step one, tweak your publications and marketing efforts in small ways and then go about seeking expansion either by adding more games, more expansions and more marketing endevours. Always keeping each segment of the operation scalable and profitable at whatever scale you have to operate it at (weather its $100 in annual sales or $1 mil).

The goals are own to set. If, however, you do have the goal of making a "good" living off RPG publishing and you do not achieve that, then yes, you have no one else to blame but yourself that you did not accomplish that goal. It really doesn't matter what the state of the "Industry" might be or if there are any current distributors, retailers or even RPG players for you to work with or not. Those things are merely just tools yu may opt to use when marketing your product. As well all know, there are countless other marketing options, product formats and even potential target audiences to sell to. There are no real excuses.

When I was younger I read several books about self made millionaires. The most common thing I pulled out of that reading was, the average self made millionaire that did it through business (as opposed to employment or investing) actually had two failed businesses before finding the business that succeeded for them. So why, after 10 years have I not given up on my first, one and only company and moved into another business idea? Well, because this is what I love to do, and the lesson learned is, we have to try different ideas, different approaches on how to do business, how to market, what to market, etc. That canbe done with the same business or three different businesses, it really doesn't matter. We have to give up on what clearly does not work, once we indentify what that is, then seek different business ideas and approaches to meet our goals. To bring that back to the RPG industry, just because something worked for TSR 30 years ago doesn't mean it will work for you. You have to experiement and find what will work for you.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com

I don't make a living from my RPG writing. Then again, I don't have much in the way of product. However, what I do have has -- without any overt advertising or marketing that requires any time out of me -- consistently paid my yearly domain registration and hosting fees since 2000, often with a bit of cash left over I can blow on RPG stuff through the year. That means my means of dissemination and publishing is paying for itself, plus some. It's not putting me in the red, and it's not drawing cash from my monthly necessities. With the money I make, I'm paying for two of my own hobbies -- the whole internet domain tech-geek thing, and RPGs. I think that's pretty cool.

One thing that does arise out of this is the difference between a person who just wants to write the best game they can, and get paid for it, and the "RPG auteur" who wants complete control over the project from start to finish, wants to do layout and also get involved in the nitty gritty of promotion, sales organising printers, travelling to conventions and generally making a big fat blob of themselves on the internet. It would take a great deal of analysis to determine which model produces the best games, or if the model even makes a difference (as a proportion of games released). Sometimes the auteur model falls down - in particular, everyone should get an experienced copy editor to run their eye over their words.

For those wishing to make a living from the RPG industry who aren't interested in self-publishing or promotion and just want to write, write, write (or draw, draw, draw) without taking too many risks with their personal finances, the conventional model works better. It isn't always that they are constrained by the publisher, that the publisher is cramping their style or appropriating their IP, it's that they don't want to take the risk - it's not a luxury they can afford.

What the indie model appears to provide is greater innovation in games design which I think is supported by the ivory tower thinkers, who are effectively their own patrons - supported by their day jobs. Whether the nitty gritty of GNS theory has helped many people to improve their RPG experience, I don't know, but it's certainly inspired many people to throw of the kooky fantasy wargame shackles and create some excellent new games without getting burnt in the process, and that alone has made it worthwhile.

Hey, Simon --

Maybe a little tangential to this thread, but I think we've yet to see a company that actually manages to both provide publication, layout, and promotion and still respect the writer's rights.  This is by no means a "that would never work" sort of affair, either -- basically every publishing field outside of some dinosaur-y comics works in the same way -- creator keeps rights to IP, leases them to publisher for a defined length of time (often something like "1 year after the book goes out of print") and for a specific market.  As far as I know, there is not a single RPG publisher who doesn't want to own the writer's IP.

That makes things problematic at another level.

yrs--
--Ben

I'd like to shoot that auteur model right in the forehead, right now. A lot of people think that the model of publishing I favor is an auteur model.

It's not.

The auteur "theory" (it's not a theory, it's a form of fandom) is one of stupidest notions ever to show up between two covers. I'll do it again, in case the bullet did one of those funky things ...

Bang! No doubts this time.

I work with copy editors, layout guys, artists, playtesters (boy do I ever), fellow publisher consultants (technically speaking), and many other influences and sources of labor.

Simon, I'd greatly appreciate it if, in your writings about this discussion, you do not ascribe auteurship pretensions to anything I've ever published or advocated. "Independent," or "self-published," is what I'm about. A lot of that means making the right decisions about which other people you work with most often.

Best, Ron

Simon, I'd greatly appreciate it if, in your writings about this discussion, you do not ascribe auteurship pretensions to anything I've ever published or advocated. "Independent," or "self-published," is what I'm about. A lot of that means making the right decisions about which other people you work with most often.
Best, Ron

Ben wrote:
Maybe a little tangential to this thread, but I think we've yet to see a company that actually manages to both provide publication, layout, and promotion and still respect the writer's rights.  This is by no means a "that would never work" sort of affair, either -- basically every publishing field outside of some dinosaur-y comics works in the same way -- creator keeps rights to IP, leases them to publisher for a defined length of time (often something like "1 year after the book goes out of print") and for a specific market.  As far as I know, there is not a single RPG publisher who doesn't want to own the writer's IP.

[qupte]One thing that does arise out of this is the difference between a person who just wants to write the best game they can, and get paid for it,

and the "RPG auteur" who wants complete control over the project from start to finish, wants to do layout and also get involved in the nitty gritty of promotion, sales organising printers, travelling to conventions and generally making a big fat blob of themselves on the internet. It would take a great deal of analysis to determine which model produces the best games, or if the model even makes a difference (as a proportion of games released). Sometimes the auteur model falls down - in particular, everyone should get an experienced copy editor to run their eye over their words.

What Ralph said.

THATS the distinguishing feature of indie as espoused at The Forge.  Auteur or not is a red herring and completely tangental.

Well, this is getting a bit off-track, but since it highlights some of the confusions about "independent" that persist, I want to clarify a couple of things.

First of all, Simon, with no criticism implied, no, you are not conducting independent publishing by the definition used here. That #3 is crucial, because that definition is all about the money.

Don't get me wrong. What you describe is a much improved version of freelance or work-for-hire or all that kind of arrangement. What you describe would keep Bob Kane from getting screwed out of making money from Batman. That's fine, and if anyone wants to work with you in those terms, you won't see me picketing your offices with a "Down with the exploiters, Free Bob Kane" sign.

So do we have that out of the way? Good. With that in mind, the definition of independent that I've been exemplifying and promoting all these years relies on the creator having full authority over the money, at both ends. (1) Money put in, and (2) money coming back, and how it's spent.

That's what makes it independent publishing, or self-publishing, or however one wants to phrase it. The whole IP discussion is secondary. Or to put it most clearly, if the creator of the game also has full authority over the money at both ends, then the issue of IP becomes irrelevant, because it's not disputable.

[Side note: Especially if you do what I and a lot of authors do, which is to lease the art rather than buy it, with no restrictions on the artist's use at all. In other words, the artist becomes controller of his or her money, for his or her work.]

Now, this might confuse people, because Ralph said "it's all about the vision" and I agreed, and now I'm saying "it's all about the money." What, huh, what?

It shouldn't be confusing, though. Start with the point about the money, and then Ralph's point about the vision arrives instantly on its heels, as a necessary outcome.

Second, I'm afraid that all the good intentions you've posted about how much you as the publisher would respect the desires of the author are like plastic fruit. They're beautiful until someone puts the bite on them.

What if the book sells under-par for the first year, and the author wants you to print 1000 more? "Just promote it to the distributors a little more, come on! I know it can do it!" Who makes that decision? Are you the author's print-servant, when you foot the bill? And when you have four or five other books by other authors coming out, all of which you think will probably be stronger sellers, and one of which is proving a tad expensive at the moment?

Or let's say one of those books comes back in proofs from the printer, and for no reason that you can understand, the author says, "That looks fucking awful. Let's start over." Are you really going to eat that entire cost? If he really has "final say," then yeah, you would. Art costs, layout costs, time and negotiation costs, all gone - plus whatever promotion and promises you made about the book coming out at such-and-such a time, all lost.

I'm not asking you to address each and every one of these points in a what-if fashion. In fact, please do not do any such thing. That is not the point of this thread, and as I've said very clearly, if an author wants to work with you on your terms, then more power to him and he can rest assured that he will not be put on the street to sell pencils.

What I'd like you to consider is that no, a publisher cannot afford to let the author exert the kind of authority I'm talking about over the work. If he did, the he (the author) would be ... the publisher.

That's what I do.

Best, Ron

Simon, I really like what you've described in principle.  But practically speaking I think it might have been much more viable 10 years ago (or even 5).

Unless I'm completely misreading you, you're basically putting yourself out as coordinator of printing, art direction, and marketing for a small press designer who has a game but doesn't want to, or can't do those things themself..

That's actually pretty cool, and falls right in line with my notion of "do what you do well, and hire someone else to do the rest".*

However, modern technology (the "flattening of the world" as its coming to be called) has made those tasks so easy that today I'm not sure anyone who's tech savvy enough to surf the internet couldn't do those things well for themselves.  There are literally dozens of sites where you can go to get print quotes from a competitive selection of printers.  I coordinated the entire second print run of Universalis by finding print shops through one of those sites, interacting with the top 5 via email and making my selection and getting down to specifics without ever even speaking to the rep on the phone.

Likewise there are tons of on line galleries that are easily searched to find artists and marketing has got HUGELY easier with the growing momentum of Key20 and IPR.  I've never spoken to a distributor rep in my life, yet over half of my last Uni print run went through distribution with Alliance making regular reorders every couple of months.

Branding is a useful thing to offer.  The proliferation of small press game company imprints means that most small companies names are hardly well known.  Indeed the designer's names are generally much more known than our imprints.  But in a way we've developed our own meta brands.  People talk about "the new Indie game" the way they'd talk about "the new d20 release".  Or "The latest game from The Forge" the way they'd talk about "The latest game from White Wolf".  Add to that the growing recognition of: Indie Press Revolution, Key20, and a web of interlocking Blogs where large numbers of gamers go to get the latest scoop on new games...and we've even got a pretty good start on brand recognition.

So, maybe someone who really thought owning their own intellectual property was important...but who REALLY didn't have the time to do basic online web searches...might find having someone coordinate the final stages of publishing for them a good thing.  But I suspect that that slice of the designer universe is actually pretty small.  Maybe if the 3 tier system were to collapse and large numbers of freelancers were to find themselves without work for hire, they may be attracted to the model you've described (as I understand it) because it is fairly similar to what they're used to.  But I'm not seeing a whole lot of value added for myself.

I'd much rather pick your brains on forums like this in a mutually beneficial collaboration between indie publishers who do not view themselves as competitors**, freely sharing what we know and tricks of the trade we've learned, than to enter into a business partnership just to have to pay money for the same thing.

Final thought.  Ron's absolutely right.  "All about the vision" and "All about the money" are pretty much synonymous (note "money" is not the same as "profit" or "living wage").
Its just the game industry application of the Golden Rule:  "Those who have the Gold, make the Rules".  The only way it can be all about my vision...is if it only involves my money.  No matter how good your intentions are, if publishing my game involves your money you'd have to be either stupid or running a charity not to put your foot down if you didn't like how I was spending it.  As long as its my money, mine is the only foot involved.

* actually it would be more in line with my model if instead of being the publisher granting back to the creator certain rights and privileges the arrangement was framed more like a consulting service where you were hired to perform a specific function and there was no need for guarantees of IP rights, because those were never ceded to begin with.

** None of the publishers on the Forge are competitors of each other.  That's hard to believe for some, but its true.  If Half Meme were Ramshead competition then everytime someone bought a copy of My Life with Master I'd be all like "damn...lost another one to Di-tech".  Instead I'm like "Whoo hoo, the market for people who are aware of and interested in small press games just got bigger"  See every customer of Half Meme or Adept or TAOS or Chimera is a potential future customer of Ramshead.  Its MUCH easier for me to sell to someone whose already played and loved Dust Devils than it is for me to sell to someone whose only played d20 (and vice versa).  So our collective marketing efforts are full of synergies.  Which is why many indie games include ads for other indie games from other publishers in the back.

Point being, instead of paying you so that we can benefit from your expertise and experience (which is what it sounds like you're offering in your brief summary above), I'd rather see you freely share your expertise and experience and freely benefit from ours, so everybody wins.  I've no doubt you've got insights into aspects of the industry that would be valuable for us to know.  And I fully expect that we have insights that you could benefit from to.  Sharing those with you on this forum 9or others) would be a fantastic opportunity for everyone.

Well, sorry to jump in, but I'd like to provide my view on the subject... and I guess I'm not the only one in this position. Just to make things clear : I'm over thirty, working and married. I make good money (and my wife too), I won't hide it. The main two questions that occured to me were : what do I do with my spare time ? and what do I do with my money ?

So, I'm also working on a rpg project and I don't make a living out of it... not yet. Maybe I'll never do !!! I don't know. But, designing and writing what I do takes me a lot of time (my spare time) and to complete it, I need to invest some money (my spare money). Obviously, I could do other things : watch TV, build a character for world of warcraft, go ski... anything. As for the money, I will be investing the equivalent of a car (more or less). That said, I don't have a car, I don't need one, I don't want one...

But, bottom line for me is that I'm doing something for me, in which I learn a lot of things !! Writing 500 pages is quite a thing. Designing and owning a website is quite a thing. Managing over ten people over a project that is mine, is quite a thing. I learn a lot doing this in my spare time. And that's very important to me. As for the money, if it works, then I'll try to be at least even, but this is not a hole for me, this is an initial investiment (that said, I like the idea of investing in me).

Bottom line, what I'm doing is indie : this is mine. I decide whom I'm working with, I make the final decisions. Even if this doesn't work, this is going to be a great visiting card. I can do that. I have done that. And not only for me. For the illustrators, the translator, the webdesigner, the webmaster...

And that's why it is important to me, that's why I continue to invest (time and money) in it.

First of all, Simon, with no criticism implied, no, you are not conducting independent publishing by the definition used here. That #3 is crucial, because that definition is all about the money.

So what value do we add? Yes, we can assist the creative process, but that's secondary. You could present me with a fully laid out, illustrated and ready to print book, I'd be delighted, but I'd still be able to help. The most important contribution occurs after the publication. We have to sell as many copies as we can through the agreed channels in order to recoup our investment. There is likely to be very little intersection between customers the creator finds and ones we find. Basically, creators will make more money than they otherwise would, and more importantly (to me at least) far more people would be playing their games. If you can already sell and market through the traditional channels and have the time and energy, then you probably won't have much use for us. If you have printing, distribution, mail order and advertising set up in Europe, then we probably can't do much for you. Still, the proof will be in the pudding.

Hi Simon,

I'm not dismissing you nor splitting hairs over definitions. This is a good discussion; keep reading. This post might surprise you.

You wrote,

If a person has control over their IP, the ability to veto any aspect of the production process, total creative control and the ability to sell their product throught the channels they want, how they want, then they are independent in my opinion.

I've no interest in producing something the creator isn't happy with. Would I give a creator a veto at any stage? Yes. We are just as much a subcontractor as anyone else, except we get paid in good value product to resell.

So if I'm reading you right, when you say "publisher," you are much more like the latter than the former. If that's the case, then wahoo! You would be the first guy ever actually to facilitate independent publishing in that fashion.

I'm not even sure that "publisher" is even the right term ... perhaps "publishing consulting" or "logistics managing" or some such thing is more accurate. If, in fact, you are acting as a subcontractor for services rendered, and specifically relinquishing final authority over the management of the money and other policies, then yes, everything you're saying about preserving the independence is accurate.

Now, I do expect you to accept that I'm suspicious about it. Historically, no such tacit arrangement has ever worked and all cases I know of ended in disaster. The fact you're making that arrangement explicit is heartening and fascinating.

Valamir wrote:
Sounds interesting.  Love to have you start a thread with some details and some numbers.  I have a pretty good idea how many copies many of the Forge Games have sold and over what time period because we share that information.  I have a pretty good idea how much money in pocket that translates to.  I'd love to have numbers from you to compare to.  Is what you're doing really putting significantly more money in pocket even after your cut?  Please start a thread on it and discuss not as a sales pitch, obviously, but as a comparison of methods.  We're not hide bound around here, maybe you're on to something.

But for purposes of this thread, as soon as there is someone else in the picture who has an interest in "recouping their investment" you've entered the slippery slope between truly independent and not.  The very first time you do something with my game that I* don't 100% like, or prevent my doing something that I do 100% like and you can do that because you have the lever of investment money...then we've hit "not" no matter how small the something is.  Is that possibility worth it given a sufficiently large amount of additional money you'd be putting in my pocket.  Possibly, that's why I'd love to see that other thread.

The article which lead to this thread is now available for your perusal.

Go to http://www.dyingearth.com/pagexxintro.htm and click "Is the RPG Industry Screwed?"

More on the first example of a new publishing model soon.

Simon Rogers
Pelgrane Press Ltd

A very interesting article Simon.

I was most struck by how gloomy the tone was.  Even folks who were saying things that were technically correct were doing so from the perspective of "batten down the hatches, rough seas ahead" instead of "wow, a total paradigm shift in the industry...what a fantastic opportunity...what a fantastic time to be an RPG publisher". 

It really is a different perspective to see how folks with a vested interest in the old paradigm view the new paradigm vs. how most of us here view it...as the single greatest thing to happen to the roleplaying hobby since Dave Arneson.

All the stuff those guys were pointing out as reasons why the old industry is dying to me are reasons why the new industry is thriving.  The King is Dead...Long Live the King.

Kudos for Ben for being the only person quoted to identify the REAL underlying issue.

Kudos to anyone not already immersed in Forge culture who are sharp enough to realize that of all of the things that were said, Ben's words should be the key takeaway from the article...take them to heart and learn from them

Kudos to Simon for making Ben's piece the longest single quote in the article.

And Kudos also to Mongoose for stepping up and showing that there is money to be made yet in the old paradigm, doing it successfully, and doing it without moping and whining about it.  They may not be using the model we are, but they're clearly adept at squeezing the last ounce of advantage out of what they're doing and taking responsibility for their own success rather than looking for excuses. 

Simon's stated purpose was to talk to people who "made a living" from writing/publishing/selling RPGs.  Ben qualifies because he lives in China and because Polaris rocks on toast.

Anyway, I bring it up because I realized, possibly for the first time, why people are so invested in the old paradigm: they like their jobs.  Designing and selling games in the way that is generally advocated around the Forge means that you won't generally lose money, but at the same time you aren't going to be able to get along without a job to pay the rent.  People who are in the "industry" love what they do, and they want to do it full-time.

When you compare the two dominant paradigms (the small/hobby press and the "industry") with your primary criteria being "Which of these can I make a full-time career?" it is pretty obvious who wins.

Of course just because you want to do something as a career doesn't mean that it's feasible to do so, but it seems that, at least for the moment (though it is interesting that everyone is commenting on the decline of the "industry") you can make a career out of writing/designing/publishing roleplaying games.  I think the problem people have is that it's becoming less and less possible to do this, and no one really wants to give up a job they love...

I thought it was interesting anyway...

Thomas

Thomas -- yes, yes, and a thousand times yes.  Then complicate that with spouses and children.  It's a little more than the game designer's aesthetic sensibilities on the line.

Hi Thomas,

It is completely possible to make a living on game publishing still. Even only publishing RPGs if one were determined enough to do it only with RPGs.

However, looking to the future, I think creators will have to get ever more creative in the manner in which they attempt to present their creatives to the market and make money on it. Role playing might thrive in the future, but drawing employment solely from "printed" RPG books is going to get more difficult. And yes, I more or less lump PDF books in the same category. To thrive financially I think people will need to get creative on the business side and find ways to monetize RPG creative content through in different ways.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com

guildofblades wrote:
Hi Thomas,

It is completely possible to make a living on game publishing still. Even only publishing RPGs if one were determined enough to do it only with RPGs.

I read Simon's article with great interest. I strongly disagree with the majority of the opinions -- especially that the rpg industry is dyinnnng -- and even Ben says a whole lotta not much. (Though I do agree with his focus on the play experience.)

But then I looked at what I do. I have a very popular small press game. My game does not sell in numbers that can support both me and it. It supports itself, and provides capital for further investment, but that's it. I can't live off of it (without killing it) -- and I spend all of my free time working on it.

I got the sense from the old timers in that article that back in the day, I could have actually made money from the moderate success of a game like Burning Wheel. I wonder if that's true? Seems unlikely, but that's because I can't imagine anyone actually making a living doing this!  :?

Anyway, I feel like the poster child for that article -- focused on play experience, selling great, not making a living.

-Luke

[cross-posted on nerdnyc.com]