Topic: [Perfect] Playtest version up!
Started by: joepub
Started on: 5/21/2006
Board: Playtesting
On 5/21/2006 at 7:53pm, joepub wrote:
[Perfect] Playtest version up!
http://www.1km1kt.net/rpg/Perfect_RPG.php
That is the playtest version of Perfect, right there!
In the final version of the game, there will be content about:
-establishing who gets to set the scenes (what order players go in, etc)
-establishing social contract expectations
-Narration and telling a collaborative story
-Background: Marginals, exiles, and what lies outside the Regulated Boundaries
-Background: town life, country life
If you can take Perfect and playtest it, I will dance a happy little jig.
I'll even dance two jigs, if you want.
If you can't playtest it, I'd still like some reviews and feedback.
Questions:
1.) Does the background info give you a solid image of the Perfect world?
2.) Is the order of material (background, character info, mechanics, character creation) logical and easily digested?
3.) Does the writing flow well and read easily?
4.) What parts were troubling/confusing?
5.) Are the examples helpful?
6.) Provide any other feedback you can!
On 5/21/2006 at 9:34pm, joepub wrote:
Re: [Perfect] Playtest version up!
I've gotten some feedback from non-Forgites, and want to post it here, just so everything is kept together:
Freedom of Association
There is already a certification that allows this without any bad side.
The repercussion doesn't seem to fit that well, intuitively.
You should scrap this one.
Freedom of Thought
Great freedom - high gain, high risk.
The only problem is the Fallout:
if you have been "suspected" (which is what a Calm test does) and turned in... you still can't speak during interrogation because you haven't been proven to be guilty of breaking Freedom.
Collaborative Crimes
If one criminal gets caught and interrogated, there isn't any threat or danger for the second criminal.
There should be.
So....
here's some "errata" for the document:
Freedom of Association no longer exists.
Freedom of Thought
Repercussion: If you fail your Discovery test, you must take both an Interrogation and a Conditioning test.
Collaborative Crimes
If one of the characters in a collaborative crime fails his or her Interrogation test, the other character must take an Interrogation test too this crime cycle.
On 5/22/2006 at 2:07am, Oscar Evans wrote:
RE: Re: [Perfect] Playtest version up!
I wouldnt bother with an introduction to RPG's, just to your game and its play style etc. Any good GM will have a better job of explaining what an RPG is to their player than a book can. This isnt likely to be played by any newbies anyway.
The Background is interesting at its core, but more sympathy and understanding could be added to Abigail. One doesnt get a good impression of her motives. She also needs better last words. Some really pithy phrase. The emergence of the Church also doesnt make so much sense. Religions evolve from earlier religions, they never appear whole-cloth. Where did it come from?
It seems like a Victorian Paranoia or 1984. The coloured vests are particularly Paranoia.
I dont know if its a game i would play. The scope of the game (Committing crimes) seems a bit limited, but as no resolution systems are given for any other actions, one assumes that that will be what takes up most of the game. Commit crime, freak out, get some programming, go out into the world, commit crime, get caught, get some programming. One would assume that the players would be CONSTANTLY taken in to conditioning. In 1984, this was gruesome and heart-wrenching. If it happens 3 times a game, it might lose its emotional impact. How fun is it to play a kleptomaniac who keeps getting caught?
I think the setting, story and ideas might be a wonderful backdrop to a game, but with crimes as the ENTIRE mechanic of the game, there isnt really much else to do is there? The system even seems to rely on the idea that you will be constantly committing crimes, and constantly being caught.
On the laws
You might want to add more laws. Irrational ones, like making eye contact across sexes, failing to address your betters as 'Sir', touching your betters or women, showing affection towards children, wearing dirty or torn clothes, profaning the church, etc. This might bloat a bit though.
Relational Laws: Didnt it say earlier that love may NEVER be expressed, even by married people?
Aggression: Banning physical contact might be better than just violence.
Church: 'Players may not hold blasphemous beliefs' might be better, or words to that effect. Evokes the setting more. They shouldnt even admit there ARE other religions.
Property: Other peoples 'things'? Property, belongings, etc might be better way to reward this. Or using the word 'theft'. You may not dammage anothers property (This coveres breaking and entering), or trespass might be more law-sounding, as well.
According to the laws, one could roll on the ground and oink like a pig, throw stones at peoples windows and break them, or make lewd gestures towards women (Pelvic thrusting, etc) all without breaking the law. One could even paint the mayors carriage with bright red house paint while singing bawdy songs about sailors and their dockside activities, piss all over the carriage and then set it on fire. Then kill the horses and swallow their raw, bloody meat- as long as you dont chew. You could even kiss another man in public, depending on the interpreations of the laws. You could also wave a bright red banner with 'DOWN WITH THE GOVERNMENT' written on it, while screaming slogans about the oppression of the masses and insinuating things about the sexual preferences of the Inspectors right ot their faces.
You should at least add laws on 'behaviour unbecoming' 'lewdness' 'sedition' and equally ill defined terms. Unless you want the players to be this.. uh.. 'inventive'.
Anyway, hope that helps.
On 5/22/2006 at 3:14am, joepub wrote:
RE: Re: [Perfect] Playtest version up!
It seems like a Victorian Paranoia or 1984. The coloured vests are particularly Paranoia.
Yeah. Oscar I'm not sure if you've checked other threads on the game, but major influences:
1984
Equilibrium
Paranoia
Clockwork Orange
Fight Club (the book, moreso)
but more sympathy and understanding could be added to Abigail. One doesnt get a good impression of her motives. She also needs better last words. Some really pithy phrase.
I took the time to look up pithy here, cuz I wasn't sure its exact meaning.
"Precisely meaningful; forceful and brief"
Hmm... I honestly tried to make Abigail's last words exactly that.
She spoke for the first time in 10 years, to give a direct command (although a cryptic one, open for interpretation).
How could I rewrite the last words, Oscar, so that they are a direct command... but so cryptic that they aren't sure how to implement the command?
Do you have a better sentence to put in her mouth that I could use?
dont know if its a game i would play. The scope of the game (Committing crimes) seems a bit limited, but as no resolution systems are given for any other actions, one assumes that that will be what takes up most of the game. Commit crime, freak out, get some programming, go out into the world, commit crime, get caught, get some programming. One would assume that the players would be CONSTANTLY taken in to conditioning. In 1984, this was gruesome and heart-wrenching. If it happens 3 times a game, it might lose its emotional impact. How fun is it to play a kleptomaniac who keeps getting caught?
Hmm...
Thanks for the thoughtful critique Oscar.
You're right in that it is a limited "premise"...
But the idea is this: Its a world where almost everything is legally controlled... but NONE of that seems to matter.
Your job is controlled.
Your religious beliefs are controlled and regulated.
Your political views are restricted to "the Gailists are right."
The only things that matter... they are inevitably criminal.
Crime is used as a backdrop to create a narrative about how the human spirit reacts to pressures.
Also... conditioning is far less brutal than in 1984.
It's almost like... just routine.
"Oh, they're beating the spirit out of me.... again."
It's a recurring thing... almost a constant thing, in certain senses.
I think the setting, story and ideas might be a wonderful backdrop to a game, but with crimes as the ENTIRE mechanic of the game, there isnt really much else to do is there? The system even seems to rely on the idea that you will be constantly committing crimes, and constantly being caught.
Oscar, you need to keep in mind the things that are criminal in this world.
Having an intimate relationship outside of wedlock is illegal.
Kissing a lover under a streetlight is a crime - and a damn dangerous one too.
The game is more about WHY these people commit crimes than what crimes they commit.
You noticed the Archetypes section?
What that is basically attempting to get at is:
You are creating a story about why this person does these things...
What impulse, what drive, what unstable condition... would make someone a criminal in this world.
Are they really criminals, or just people who refuse to submit?
Are they in the wrong?
On the laws
You might want to add more laws. Irrational ones, like making eye contact across sexes, failing to address your betters as 'Sir', touching your betters or women, showing affection towards children, wearing dirty or torn clothes, profaning the church, etc. This might bloat a bit though.
You should at least add laws on 'behaviour unbecoming' 'lewdness' 'sedition' and equally ill defined terms. Unless you want the players to be this.. uh.. 'inventive'.
Cool. That's a good idea. I'll write in each and every one of those suggestions.
The law list is in need of expansion, for sure.
Now...
Oscar, a couple questions:
1.) In that light, do you think the scope is too limited?
2.) Are there examples you could give of games that you played and dislike because they had too limited a scope? (AP reports are always more useful than abstract discussion, no?)
3.) Is there a way that I could make it more obvious that the game should focus on the MEANING BEHIND the crime instead of the crime itself?
I've attempted to do this with images being fuel in-game, and with setting your own Payouts for crimes, and such...
4.) Any other feedback? I've loved what I've heard so far.
On 5/22/2006 at 11:28am, Oscar Evans wrote:
RE: Re: [Perfect] Playtest version up!
Yeah. Oscar I'm not sure if you've checked other threads on the game, but major influences:
Im new here, so no. I dont know if i even could keep up on everything, there is a hell of a lot of stuff here to read. Im just trying to offer what feedback i can. Any advice on how to operate in this community is more than welcome. I have a nasty habit of getting over-excited and offering lots of impractical or ill-fitting ideas. You seem to have liked it so far though, so ill just keep going in that manner.
Do you have a better sentence to put in her mouth that I could use?
Well this is the first statment at the top of your Magna Carta, your Bill of Rights, your First Commandment. Its pretty important.
On alternate phrases... examining the 'make everyone like me' phrase a second time, its very interseting. Because she could be saying 'Make everyone love me' not 'Make everyone resemble me'. Which betrays no small amount of insecurity. However 'and dont allow this to ever change.' negates this to some degree, and is the clumsier part of it.
You could really add a lot of sympathy to the Abigail character if you played up a troubled childhood, hopeless insecurity and a desperate search for approval. 'Make them all like me' ('them all' could be anyone, maybe its her court or people around her, maybe its 'everyone').
Was that your origional intention? Because i didnt pick up on it until i had to examine it and think hard about an alternative.
Crime is used as a backdrop to create a narrative about how the human spirit reacts to pressures.
Also... conditioning is far less brutal than in 1984.
It's almost like... just routine.
"Oh, they're beating the spirit out of me.... again."
It's a recurring thing... almost a constant thing, in certain senses.
Mmm, that sorta makes sense. I still think that the crimes themselves are over-emphasized within the system. But i couldnt really say how the game would actually play, so maybe they would offer the perfect backdrop to explore those issues.
Having an intimate relationship outside of wedlock is illegal.
Kissing a lover under a streetlight is a crime - and a damn dangerous one too.
There have been plenty of places in the world where that was the case- most major civilizations, at one point or another. There are some places where that is STILL the case. There are some places where they stone or bash people to death for doing either of those things. There are plenty of places where people are killed for showing their wrists or ankles. There are places where people are killed (By their own family) not just for the crime of 'romantic relations', but for being the victims of rape. Being conditioned seems mild in comparison.
You could set this game in present day. Sure, there wouldnt be any inspectors- but you are just as likely to be lych mobbed instead. Of course, the resultant game would probably be far too depressing for anyone to play. Haha.
This is why i think you need to add some more irrational ettiquette laws. Get the players really on their toes, make them feel the true weight and burden of all these stupid laws. Constantly have them going 'OH! Crap! I just broke the law!'- especially at the start of the game. Not the sort of offenses that would lead to re-programming, otherwise the players really would be spending the whole game in the custody of the inspectors. Perhaps have a system where small breaches of ettiquette get them fined? Maybe its not a monetary fine, but a 'conscience' one, that makes them feel more guilty and nervous. Or perhaps its a fine to their station in society- the more they act up the more privileges they lose. I dont know how this interfaces with your system but im sure you could think of something.
Make them have to really adjust their mindset, make them afraid of breaking the law just by mistake. With your current laws, they arent likely to break the law at all without really thinking hard about how to do it. If you want a feeling of real oppression here though...
You could make a really long list of rules and print it out for each player to study. At the start of the game they will probably be breaking them left right and centre, but will quickly learn to be more careful. Obviously you would need another way to track them- tallying up the modifiers to rolls of 50 rule breaches could get excessive. But like i said, perhaps a sort of 'lesser infraction'.
I think that would really add to the atmosphere. It could also make the system way too complicated though so feel free to disregard my advice.
The game is more about WHY these people commit crimes than what crimes they commit.
You noticed the Archetypes section?
What that is basically attempting to get at is:
You are creating a story about why this person does these things...
What impulse, what drive, what unstable condition... would make someone a criminal in this world.
Are they really criminals, or just people who refuse to submit?
Are they in the wrong?
Hrrm, that is an interesting thing to explore. Although i dont know that the background and what have you portrays the perspective of Gailists very sympathetically. Their characters might feel guilty about breaking the law, but i doubt the players will think twice.
1.) In that light, do you think the scope is too limited?
I think the scope of the game, the issues it deals with and the setting of the game are rich and universal to human society. I think the mechanical system itself, dealing exclusively with criminality, is limited. There are no mechanics to deal with anything else: Narration, conflicts, etc. There should at least be something saying 'And this is what you do in between crimes'. It doesnt need to be complicated... but you have to link them together somehow.
2.) Are there examples you could give of games that you played and dislike because they had too limited a scope? (AP reports are always more useful than abstract discussion, no?)
Most of them? Hah. Truth be told, i play mostly freeform (pure verbal or arbitrary dice rolls) and far too rarely at that. I find most systems to limiting. Im familiar with a lot of systems (WoD, D&D, GURPS, Shadowrun, Orkworld, Trollbabe, etc), but my actual play is limited almost exclusively to seat-of-your-pants games as i find most systems restrict more than aid me. Im new to the forge, and new to some of the great games here. Id like a chance to play some of them, but havent done so yet.
3.) Is there a way that I could make it more obvious that the game should focus on the MEANING BEHIND the crime instead of the crime itself?
I've attempted to do this with images being fuel in-game, and with setting your own Payouts for crimes, and such...
Simple. Give Archetypes a mechanical effect. In fact, they should probably have the major mechanic effect. Thats what the game is about, yeah?
4.) Any other feedback? I've loved what I've heard so far.
Im glad you like it! I've been told i can be too critical.
You could try reading some actual law. Especially some old stuff. Check out the Magna Carta. Maybe you dont want something that wordy but it might give you some ideas on style and content. Wikipedia might have something interesting as well.
You can go back even further, to the Corpus Juris Civilis and the Twelve Tables.
Naturally, there is always The Bible.
Might help writing the laws.
On 6/7/2006 at 5:04am, joepub wrote:
RE: Re: [Perfect] Playtest version up!
Version Two of Perfect is up now!!
http://www.1km1kt.net/rpg/Perfect_RPG.php
On 6/7/2006 at 2:22pm, Pelgrane wrote:
RE: Re: [Perfect] Playtest version up!
I agree with Oscar that the queen's words are an anti-climax. Not only does she speak in a manner inappropriate for a queen, she also splits an infinitive. The problem is keeping the ambiguity "like me" - if you even intended this.
Some suggestions:
"Make the world as I might like it, and keep it so."
"Make the world a safe place. Keep it so."
"Make my subjects/the people like me, and let this state exist in perpetuity."
You need an editor. Just an example:
"When someone acts suspicious, it is common belief that they are guilty of
at least something."
The artwork is very good. I suggest that the credits reflect which artist produced which piece. I'd really like to know who did the Abigail picture, as I am looking for a front cover.
On 6/7/2006 at 2:47pm, joepub wrote:
RE: Re: [Perfect] Playtest version up!
Some suggestions:
"Make the world as I might like it, and keep it so."
"Make the world a safe place. Keep it so."
"Make my subjects/the people like me, and let this state exist in perpetuity."
Thanks for the suggestions.
I'll reword that sentence.
You need an editor.
I have an editor lined up. :)
And you're very right, I do need him.
Seeing as I have an editor/typesetter/etc person who will be helping me sort out those kinks, what I would like comments to focus on is:
1.) What about the setting fits really well? What sticks out and doesn't belong as is?
2.) Do the mechanics work well together? Are there any rough spots?
3.) What parts were troubling/confusing?
4.) Are the examples helpful?
On 6/7/2006 at 3:40pm, Pelgrane wrote:
RE: Re: [Perfect] Playtest version up!
I'm sorry that I won't be able to address these issue myself until the next week - we are about to release Campaign Cartographer 3, but in the meantime, I would appreciate a response to my request for art info.
I'll try to get back to you with more feedback on your game next week when I've had the chance to have more than a quick once-over.
Simon Rogers
Pelgrane Press Ltd
ProFantasy Software Ltd