Hello,

Here I am another newbie to this board but no stranger to RPGs or writing. First off I would like to say that all the information I have found in the articles presented here are great and have given me focus and direction in which to create my game.

So far I have the premise, quick summary along with some notes and a map of my own creation (thanks autorealm). I plan to expound upon my small body of work and truly create a great game for everyone to enjoy. Right now I want to get my foundation correct so the rest will follow smoothly.

Below this paragraph is the premise of my game along with a quick summary. I have several questions on this foundation that I would like cleared up by several different points of view.

1. Has this premise been done before? Is it too much like another game? (Mage the ascension etc).
2. Can this idea be expanded, changed or improved as an overall concept?
3. Would you play in this world?

Imagine living in a fantasy world born with the gift of magic. You have the power to create, destroy, transform or control anything within your boundaries/limitations. Now imagine everything in this world was created from someone’s fantasy. Everything is real enough, but not “real” as in having a natural sense about it; not artificially created. The few things that are real are the world, humanity, the demons stalking the land and the founders of this world. The rulers of these kingdoms frown upon all practitioners of magic except for priest who are holy and righteous in the eyes of their “God”. Those who do practice magic not belonging to the governments are either loners or are part of a secret cabal. The Twelve Kings rule this crafted world called phoenix, but their powers are fading due to the influx of demons and other alien beings. Now is the time for change whether good or bad to those living here.

Players are Mages living in a world where they are hunted by demons or priest. The whole world was created by artificial means with most of humanity living in a created, fantasy-inspired environment. Major conflict arises when players are asked to choose sides or form their own faction.

Sincerely,

Richard Leon

Hi, Richard, and welcome to the Forge.

I wouldn't worry so much about "has this been done before?" and worry more about "can I do this game the way I want to do this game?"  The important thing about the game is that you're totally jazzed about it and want to play it.

Okay, so the really cool thing that grabbed me about your world description is that it takes the "all-powerful mage" thing that we see over and over again and really draws it out in an interesting way -- the whole world is, in fact, constructed directly by these magi in their power, and the few real things that are left are actively hostile to this false construction.

I don't particularly see why you necessarily need churchmen and demons (who are the only two real types of things, right?) as the primary antagonists.  It seems like the pre-existing mages, jealous of their power, are really set to be the prime antagonists.  But that's really secondary.

I'm going to reconstruct your setting and game.  This isn't necessarily a recommendation.  What I want you to do is not agree with me, but follow along step by step and figure out for yourself where you disagree with me and, maybe, why.

Discard the whole notion that these mages have to hide, or that they have to group together.  Discard, in fact, the entire idea that they have to start small.  Let's say that these Twelve Kings are declining in power, and the player characters are there replacements.  There are no pre-existing cabals to shoehorn the characters into.  The characters can create, destroy, transform or control anything that isn't directly contested by another mage.  The natural "first thing" that a character will do will be to create, from scratch, an entire nation to serve them.  They are gods in their own right, and their overt opposition comes from the weakening Twelve and from each other (with, yeah, yeah, covert operation from those pesky demons and puny churchmen.)

How does that sound to you?  I'm expecting the answer is going to be: "I don't like it 'cause X, Y, Z."  That's cool.  I'm down with that.  I just want to know what X, Y and Z are before going any further.

yrs--
--Ben

Hi, Richard, and welcome to the Forge.

I wouldn't worry so much about "has this been done before?" and worry more about "can I do this game the way I want to do this game?"  The important thing about the game is that you're totally jazzed about it and want to play it.

Okay, so the really cool thing that grabbed me about your world description is that it takes the "all-powerful mage" thing that we see over and over again and really draws it out in an interesting way -- the whole world is, in fact, constructed directly by these magi in their power, and the few real things that are left are actively hostile to this false construction.

I don't particularly see why you necessarily need churchmen and demons (who are the only two real types of things, right?) as the primary antagonists.  It seems like the pre-existing mages, jealous of their power, are really set to be the prime antagonists.  But that's really secondary.

I'm going to reconstruct your setting and game.  This isn't necessarily a recommendation.  What I want you to do is not agree with me, but follow along step by step and figure out for yourself where you disagree with me and, maybe, why.

Discard the whole notion that these mages have to hide, or that they have to group together.  Discard, in fact, the entire idea that they have to start small.  Let's say that these Twelve Kings are declining in power, and the player characters are there replacements.  There are no pre-existing cabals to shoehorn the characters into.  The characters can create, destroy, transform or control anything that isn't directly contested by another mage.  The natural "first thing" that a character will do will be to create, from scratch, an entire nation to serve them.  They are gods in their own right, and their overt opposition comes from the weakening Twelve and from each other (with, yeah, yeah, covert operation from those pesky demons and puny churchmen.)

How does that sound to you?  I'm expecting the answer is going to be: "I don't like it 'cause X, Y, Z."  That's cool.  I'm down with that.  I just want to know what X, Y and Z are before going any further.

I'm not exactly sure why, but a book popped into my head upon reading this: A Spell For Chamelon, Piers Anthony.
I'm not much of a Piers Anthony fan, but I do like that book.

Part of the premise:
Everyone in Xanth (I think it was) has a magical power.
Some can shapeshift, some can reset time, etc, etc
Every citizen has to prove their magical ability in a public demonstration before they turn 25.
The main character fails to do so, and basically sets off on an adventure into exile.
(and then later returns, is a hero, etc, etc)

The reason I thought of this was because of the prevalence of magic in that world.
There were demons that were everywhere at night, and you had to stick to the protected trails.
Everyone had some form of magic, if they were a citizen of Xanth.
Bread was plucked from magical breadtrees.
There were trees that healed you.

The point is, magic was not a cut-and-tried thing, nor could it be differentiated from the "rest of the world".
I think it'd be cool if only the "dark mages" had to organize into cabals...

If regular mages were regular people, who could just BETTER harness the magical energies around them.
Maybe even say that everyone uses magic in mudane ways - bakers bless their pastries, masons use magical strength to lift heavy objects, librarians use magical keensense to find a book without looking it up...
and then Mages are the only ones who use magic to create, change, destroy, etc in FANTASTIC ways.

It's just a small thematic difference maybe... but adds a different flavour to the game and makes the world more cohesive.
Churchfolk can still hate magic and want to kill anyone who "abuses it" (ie mages), and demons can still be drawn to those who use "excess amounts" of magic (ie mages).

Just like Ben... only my personal opinion, feel free to take or leave.

Okay, are we supposed to be ignoring the big elephant in the room?

When we roleplay, we (the players) are all-powerful beings who can create/transform/destroy anything in the fictional world.  The only things that are real in that world are the players ... all else (including the characters) is the construct of our imaginations, or the imaginings of others that we have adopted as our own.

So ... that's what this is about, right?

TonyLB wrote: So ... that's what this is about, right?

Hi Rich!
  Well, I like your game world as is. I love factional settings. Especially when there is no clearcut right/wrong side.
  I do want to repeat that earlier sentiment
  Don't talk about a setting where the players can shape reality and then nerf their powers. Maybe by our modern sensibilitis the chars are not gods, but by medieval terms they are. They can make somehing out of nothing. don't diminsh that by having a 1st lvl Mage only able to creat silly putty or something lame...
  Finally, you said deadly. I always cringe whe I hear that term. Makes me want to drop the book and run away screaming. If you do want a deadly game (and most people that use that word do), make sure you can make a complete char in 5 minutes. I won't play RoleMaster, Twilight 2000 or FASA Star Trek because it takes 2 hours to make a good char and they can die in one round because the game is deadly/realistic. If making a new char is not trivial, then making the game deadly just ruins the fun when the GM rolls a quadruple critical with Death Save...
  I know I made some pretty strong statemnets and some negative statemnets, so I'll reiterate, your game setting sounds awesome, I hope the mechanics are just as awesome!

Okay, are we supposed to be ignoring the big elephant in the room?

1. Has this premise been done before? Is it too much like another game? (Mage the ascension etc).

2. Can this idea be expanded, changed or improved as an overall concept?

3. Would you play in this world?

Hi, Richard --

Okay, I'm really confused about your goals in this game now.  Maybe you can help me out?  I'd like to step away from jargon like narrative/gamist -- whatever you mean -- and discuss what you're trying to do with the game.

To start with, you have a description of a fictional setting where magic is so powerful it has been used by twelve men to create an entire world.  Players control magi in this world.  This sounds cool to me.

Then, you talk about how they have to run and hide and fear the inquisition and join pre-ordained factions.  This could be cool, but do you see how it is dramatically different from the setting that you were talking about above?  To the point of being a completely seperate thing?

Then you have this pseudo-scientific description of how magic works, which is fine, but can you see that that has nothing to do with the distinction above?

In the first two, we are talking about the power the players have over the fiction.  In the last one, we're discussing a cool bit of color.

I have a hunch.  I might be wrong but I have a hunch.  I think that you have a sense of "what a role-playing game should be" that comes from D&D and Mage -- characters start weak and have to earn strength, characters get sorted into canonical factions, the system's role is to provide numbers for absolutely everything that happens, there is a series of chronological supplements which allow you to bring in your "few other neutral parties introduced later on."

I'm not totally closed to the idea that any one of these things could be useful.  What I want to do right now, though, is sweep those pre-conceptions aside and try to get to the heart of the matter, because I'm still really confused about whether this game, in play rather than rhetoric, is about all-powerful magic or about poor, defenseless mages running in fear from the church.

So, how about this.  Picture in your mind people playing the game.  Imagine two scenes.

The most awesome scene ever that you can imagine in your game
An ordinary sort of scene

And tell us what they are like, in terms of interactions between the players, and the players' interactions with the fiction.  Write up a little script between the players if that helps.

yrs--
--Ben

Hello Ben and Company,

I will work on a script of what would transpire in game. Hopefully this will explain some of the ideas rattling in my head.

If regular mages were regular people, who could just BETTER harness the magical energies around them.
Maybe even say that everyone uses magic in mudane ways - bakers bless their pastries, masons use magical strength to lift heavy objects, librarians use magical keensense to find a book without looking it up...
and then Mages are the only ones who use magic to create, change, destroy, etc in FANTASTIC ways.

Great!  I look forward to reading it.