Sorcery and the Fey is nearing completion. We wanted to know of any last-minute requests for its contents.

Jake

Hi Jake,

I'm not sure whether this is a last-minute request or not, as it concerns more of an overview or point to the supplement.

I really, really hope that the supplement does not emphasize all the kewl options one may take for playing a Fey character. Again and again, the text of ROS says, "Fey are rare, they may not exist, use them sparingly and with great emphasis on strangeness," and therefore a whole book about how nifty it is to play them as PCs, with whole lists full of neat skills and proficiencies and Gifts, would be a classic mixed message.

What interests me is the influence and highly charged, romantic, tragic elements of the Fey, as they affect the lives of plain old people. I'd like to know more about Druidic practices and how they interact with the Fey without the Fey ever really showing up - that kind of stuff would be of great interest to the local clergyman in a given village, and it could lead to some great scenarios that tap into existing Fey magic and interests, again, without much need for Fey characters to be front-and-center.

It might also be interesting to know what sorts or ranges of the Fey exist in different areas. Granted, I can deal with djinni in the Arabian-inspired areas, kami in the Japan-inspired areas, and the little people in the Celtic-inspired areas ... but not surprisingly, I want to know more about what people in Stahl, the Commonwealth, Zaporozhya, and those areas deal with in terms of Fey (again, obliquely).

Best,
Ron

A pre-meat warning: This is a very, very long post. Herein are questions, comments, problems, etc. I came across while reading the Sorcery section in the RoS rulebook. I am posting in this thread because some of my issues may or may not reflect on the material in the Sorcery and Fey book. However, I warn again that this is in response to material found in the main book, and mostly addresses that book. Some of the questions/points were taken as notes while reading, and were answered later in the text. Those I did my best to either revise or get rid of, but anything I missed, feel free to point it out. I have also included a few spell ideas that I had while reading for critical evaluation, to make sure I understand the way things work properly. Okay, here comes the meat....

Vagaries

Sculpture
1. Exactly what defines complex and simple polygons? Would making various ingots into a basic sword count as Apprentice, or could it be accomplished under novice?

2. Joining/Separating Materials, (Composition 1 or 2) does this include alloying metals?

3. Concept's limitations on certain things is confusing.. To create a sword (as in question 1) would I have to be viewing a sword like the one I wish to create (Concept1) or have seen one (Concept2)? Finally, if I decided to create, via sorcery, a weapon I've never seen before, and am creating it simply from imagination (and the prerequisite skill in weaponsmithing) would that make the spell level 3, even though it would only count as complex polygon (Intricacy2) of 2 or less types of metal (Composition1)?

4. At which level of Composition would I be able to change the physical form of purely elemental objects (ie, fire, water, lightning) for the purpose of say, a fireball or a lightning bolt? Would I be able to create a fireball with Intricacy1, or would it require something more?

Movement
1. Lift- I assume that height is relative to the ground. Am I correct, or is it the caster that is used as the fixed point for measuring distance? If it is the ground, then the actual altitude (as per sea level based altitude measurements) would change as the terrain changed, correct? In other words, if the target is in a pit 20 yards deep, would it require more than Lift 1 (max ht. 10 yards) to remove the target from the pit, due to the ground (bottom of the pit) being 20 yd. lower than the edge of the pit.

2. Movement spell, level 1 combined with a steel ball can be used as an instant magical bullet, yes? If so, would the Range of the spell (as defined in the CTN factoring) be the range of the target of the bullet, or the range to the steel ball? (Later actually read the example spells, and noticed Fling)

Growth
1. Can Maturing be used to heal a wound, if specifically cast on the wound, with the desired effect that it naturally heals instantly? Or would it be a matter of Dividing cells to heal the wound? (thinking more along the lines of the former, as uncontrolled cell-growth doesn't seem practical).

Glamour
1. It states that illusions must be programmed beforehand. Does this mean that Glamour may not be used for unformalized Spells of One? Or that it may not be used for unformalized spells at all?

2. I am having a hard time seeing the value of casting any Glamour spell at Novice level, due to the description under Realism for that level. Especially considering that at Novice level, the illusion has no motion capabilities, the best you could end up with is a purely visual illusion which is obviously an illusion, and does nothing. Entirely useless. Am I missing something here?

3. I am also seeing that it requires Vision3 to cast any Illusion with a Reality or Tangibility of Master level. Perhaps I am again missing something, but you aren't much of a Master Glamourist if you require Vision3 to make anything worthwhile.

Conquer
1. It appears to me that a person would need Vision (Telepathy) to manage to delete any specific memory at all, with higher levels to get at anything besides memories of events on the surface. Is this so, or am I reading too much into it?

2. It is not stated, but can a Master Conqueror use Repress in conjunction with Implant to totally erase someone's mind, then rewrite their whole life experience? I assume that this would take considerably more time than the basic guidelines for spells, due to the time spent re-writing the memory. Rewrite seems like a suitable opposite to Erase.

3. What would it take to implant a strong emotion in a target, such as a love for the caster? I am guessing Repress2 and Implant2.

Vision
1. Some other Vagaries refer to need for Vision3 to see miniscule detail, but Vision2 Clairvoyance states a 100x magnification, which is sufficient for anything practical above a cellular level.

2. I am seeing a True Telepathy spell using Telepathy 1 and Implant 1 to read/send thoughts. Does this sound kosher?

Summoning
1. What purpose to summon a spirit? Especially considering that you must do something for it, what reason would you have to summon a spirit that would be worth the cost? It seems backward somehow that you must do something for a spirit you summoned, rather than vice-versa. Or is it possible to circumvent this service by imprisoning the spirit, or banishing it once your use for it is done? (likely upsetting said spirit, but...)

2. Is it possible to communicate with a spirit without having to use Vision to see it? Is it possible to banish or imprison a spirit without having to see it?

3. It also seems illogical that Summoning Magic should have an additional drain upon the caster. If you are summoning the magic, then why is it coming out of your lifeforce? It would make more sense to simply be able to sacrifice lifeforce to get the requisite unchanneled magic. Summoning ought to be a way to get it without having to pay the cost yourself. Perhaps it should come from a specific individual, which you either have a material link to, or is nearby enough to affect directly. "Yes, I may imbue your sword with power, but the cost to you will be more significant than just a measly few thousand marks."

4. What is the purpose of Imprisoning a Spirit or Demon, other than getting them out of your hair? Can they somehow be used to empower an item, perhaps something I have not reached in my current reading?

5. For imprisoning magic, it states that SP dice are "irrevocably lost" I assume that one is capable of replacing that point through character advancement. Am I correct?

Limits of Magic

Spells may not give life to an object
1. Are Golems possible, besides conscious animation of the object? Can it become a semi-autonomous animated object? If so, I am guessing this to be a possible application of Imprisoning a Spirit or Demon (though it better be willing, or else it'll be an unruly golem).

Life may not be restored to the dead
1. Can a corpse be returned to full health (aside from being dead) and a spirit imprisoned in it, giving it a sort of life? Or would the spirit be unable to sustain the health of the body, in which case it would become a decaying mess, unless magically preserved?

Souls, Spirits and Demons may not be destroyed (but may be banished or controlled)
1. Exactly how does one control a spirit or demon? And if the spirit is controlled, why would the summoner have to do it a service?

Fire may not suddenly appear and burn on nothing
1. How does this rule effect and allow the example from the story where Snowden turns a man into a human torch?

Gifts and Flaws for Sorcerors

Weires and Familiars
1. Is there a way, short of buying this Gift, for anyone to gain a familiar (ie via good roleplaying)? I am assuming the answer is no, but I wish clarification.

2. If the familiar is lost/killed, does the sorceror automatically lose this Gift, or are they able to bond another familiar? If so, how would a Weire go about doing this?

Spell and Spellcasting Rules


Maintaining and Constant Durations
1. I am a little confused on this, so I will state my understanding for you to confirm or deny. I believe that to maintain a spell, you simply state that you are maintaining it, and (CTN - # of success on the spellcasting roll) SP dice do not refresh until you drop the maintained spell. If the SP refreshes 1 point every hour, then any spell maintained for less than an hour has no appreciable negative effect whatsoever.

2. Given that the above is true, I see little point in making spells Constant unless you wish the spell to last for several hours or more, even considering the limitations on maintaining (number of maintained spells, need for concentration on the tasks at hand). The cost for summoning the magic to make the spell constant (1-3 months of instant aging, plus whatever aging effects for casting the spell to make it Constant) considerably outweighs the penalties for sustaining.

Dormant Spells
1. If I'm reading this right, I can use my full SP to cast a dormant spell into my own mind and save it for later. Admittedly I risk aging twice, but I am able to implant focused SP along with the spell, which could be a real lifesaver when my actual SP gets used up. I could even implant a Refreshing Spell into my own mind for an emergency fix. Any reason why I can't actually do this?

Example Spells

Okay, here's one of my biggest concerns... I don't exactly get why certain spells must be Spells of Three (or even that much, for that matter...) Above I gave an example of a healing spell which used only Maturing 1. Admittedly, it would hurt a whole bunch as the wound suddenly heals, but that's the price you pay for cheap healing. However, I found (finally) Seal Wound, which effectively does the same thing, minus the pain. I don't see the need for Sculpture in making a wound heal (just quickly/immediately) unless it manages to do it without scarring, but that's a petty difference, and most would be glad of only a scar.. Though, upon thought, I suppose natural healing leaves people with "bum legs" and such, whereas the addition of sculpture would get rid of such things.
Okay, so would my example of simply causing the wound to heal via simple application of Growth work? Admittedly, there will be the effects of scarring, or permanent effects of the injury, and a heaping helping of pain, but would it work?

It also seems that Table 6.6 is missing from the book. How does one find the bonuses for Formalized Spells? Also, by looking it also seems that tables 6.5, 6.7, and 6.8 are all missing as well, as it goes from 6.4 to 6.9 (with a mention of 6.6, but no table to be found). Anything for this?

My own spell ideas

Iron Maiden I
Spell of One
CTN = 4 (casting time: 4 seconds)
T) 1 R) 1 V) 1 D) 0 L) 1
Vagary(s): Sculpture 1
Effect(s): Intricacy 1, Composition 1, Concept 1
Instantaneous
Creates a spike projecting from within the armor of the opponent, on the spot touched. It requires a material component of an iron spike as a visual aid at the time of casting, and metal armor at the point touched on the opponent. It does damage as a piercing attack wherever the touch was landed.

Iron Maiden II
Spell of One
CTN = 5 (casting time: 5 seconds)
T) 1 R) 1 V) 2 D) 0 L) 1
Vagary(s): Sculpture 1
Effect(s): Intricacy 1, Composition 1, Concept 1
Instantaneous
Creates spikes on the inner surface of the armour worn. It requires a material component of an iron spike as a visual aid at the time of casting, and metal armor at the point touched on the opponent. It does damage as a piercing attack in all areas covered by the piece of armor touched, and adds the armour class of the particular piece to the damage.

Armorial Betrayal
Spell of One
CTN = 5 (casting time: 5 seconds)
T) 1 R) 1 V) 2 D) 0 L) 1
Vagary(s): Sculpture 1
Effect(s): Intricacy 1, Composition 1, Concept 1
Instantaneous
Causes all metal armor to bind together as a single piece, and hinder/immobilize the wearer. For piecemeal armor, it doubles the CP modifiers of all pieces, for chain it locks up the upper body entirely, and for any full suit, the character is effectively fully immobilized.

Thassall. If the above spells work, anyone who likes them is free to steal them. If they do not, and you "fix" them, count on me stealing them. I await your answers and return comments.

Wow...that is a long post, and I'll be spending a lot of time with it later (I'm on house-cleaning duty right now). As an aside, however, those are some of the coolest dang spells I've ever seen...And I'm a big "Iron Maiden" fan...:D

Jake

As long as I am crusing the boards and I see Jake sneaking in here I have a question or two and an idea for a Gift.

My First question:
Can a Sorcerer of the appropriate skill cast a simple one or two element spell as a ritual in order to gain the bonus dice, say to resist aging.

Lets say I am a seer with vision 3, Can I cast a simple divination to say look into the kings throne room as a ritual to gain the extra dice from a ritual?

As second question: Are "steal body" "steal life force" or even "Get the other guy to anty up the years" spells possible.

Can I hijack a likely farmboys body to continue my malign career as a sorcerer if I have the right powers? Or can I hijack a bit of life force and transfer a few months of life from a person or even (at an appropriate ratio) an animal. Its creepy but I could easily see a Socererer taking a year or two from a dog say to gain a few months back (a 7 to 1 ratio of course) or better from a person (1 or 2 to 1)

Also A CTN suggestion. If you wish to add a sympathy/contagion riff to the system a simple rule allowing an appropritly prepared material component to reduce CTN by 1. A failure on the prep roll of course raises it by 1.

Finally another gift/flaw idea....

Magic Tolerance minor/major gift

The possesser of this gift is tolerant of magic and able to regenerate life force somewhat.

Minor you gain 1 automatic sucess to resist aging
Major You gain 2 automatic sucessess to resist aging.

While I am on the magic system a problem I see from a "game" pov is the price to use decent spells is much too high to make it palatible to the hypothetical average player. IMO of course

With the numbers to resist anything more than a trivial spell will result in the aging of the caster a few months at least.

Lets say your charcter has a sorcery pool of 12 (not bad) He wants to cast a CTN6 spell such as Wall.

He has a familiar (1 free success) . With his CTN of 6 he has 50% chance of resisting aging with each die.

Thus to avoid aging on a relativly trivial spell like this the caster will have to allocate 10 of his dice to resisiting aging. Assumeing average rolls he will suceed in getting the spell off (50% with each die) Not bad.

Now the same wizard is going to cast Seal Wound, This is basically your RPG healing spell. This is a CTN 10 spell. I can subtract 1 (usually) for either gestures or speech. OK now I have a 1 in 5 chance per die of success.
Nicely as this is a spell of three the wizard gains another 6 dice in his pool. Handy.

OK to make this work I need to allocate 5 dice to the casting. This leaves me 11 dice to resist aging. My familiar will stop 1 month of aging automatically. 11 dice means I have about two sucesses.

This means each casting of healing costs me about 6 months of life. In otherwords a sorcerer will only do this in the most dire emegencys. This means for defacto injurys there is no magic healing.

IMO A lot of players are going to be drawn to TROS by the excellent combat system and will be very dissapointed by the magic rules.

I am afraid a lot of gamers raised on "traditional" RPG games are going to have serious adaptation problems with these rules. OK I came from D&D, Runequest, Rolemaster, GURPS whatever background I want to play a sorcerer.

In additon the huge problems faced by a Sorcerer in the social arena and the mediocre stats ( a decent human sorcerer type will have at best a 'C' pick to start and this means below average stats.)

In order to have his most important attributes at decent levels said wizard is going to be a physically feeble with TO and ST among others around 3)
On top of that there are huge problems with being a Sorcerer in many areas

Well the practice of sorcery in xyz nation Death sentence...
Then another problem arises when you have no combat skills....

In a word playing a sorcerer isn't really very appealing to a large segment of players.

I am about to play a bladeslinger in a TROS campaign so i will let you all know how it goes in Actual Play....

As to this topic I am going to repost this on RPG.net with some more stuff on combat if anyone is interested.

I think it's kinda funny that Ace seems to be implying that there is an unbalance against Sorcerors, when the intent is exactly opposite. A decent sorceror can kill a decent blade-slinger in a flat instant. Admittedly, the costs are high, but they're meant to be. My own issues were from a purely simulationist slant, in that many things did not make sense in the context of the game's metaphysics. Considering that metaphysics is a study area of mine, you could call it professional interest, of sorts.

However, several of his questions seem quite valid to me.

Can a Sorcerer of the appropriate skill cast a simple one or two element spell as a ritual in order to gain the bonus dice, say to resist aging.

As second question: Are "steal body" "steal life force" or even "Get the other guy to anty up the years" spells possible.

Can I hijack a likely farmboys body to continue my malign career as a sorcerer if I have the right powers? Or can I hijack a bit of life force and transfer a few months of life from a person or even (at an appropriate ratio) an animal. Its creepy but I could easily see a Socererer taking a year or two from a dog say to gain a few months back (a 7 to 1 ratio of course) or better from a person (1 or 2 to 1)

Ace--welcome to our official forum. I answered your post on RPG.net before I saw it here, and I'm wary to do it all over again, so see it there.

On to Wolfen...

Vagaries:
My overarching answer for most of these is "do what you like." Sorcery and the Fey hopes to clean a lot of things up for more demanding readers and players (such as yourself), so I won't go too deep here, but I'll hit some major points, and answer the one's I feel are particularly intriguing (leaving the rest to be dealt with as you see best).

Lift: From the targets' current position, I reckon.
Bullet: the range component of the spell would probably be the greater of the two--the target, or the ball, depending on where they're at.

Healing: It's really an issue of how you and the Seneschal see eye-to-eye. Rick, the guy that penned the magic system, is very demanding of detail when forming a spell. I'm very flexible. Go with what makes sense to you.

Glamour: (1)Hmmm...My interperetation is that illusions aren't generally controlled "on the spot," but rather their actions are determined when they're created. But the truth is that I never really liked it that way and so I just do what I want, as I hope everyone else does with the system.
(2) Remember that a shimmering ghost or shady illusion will still be scary as hell to most of Weyrth's superstitious populace. There are tons of creative ways to use even the smallest spells.
(3) Remember how easy it is to have both Vision 3 and Glamor 3 even as a starting character (most sorcerers seem to have all 9 vagaries at 3 within a few games). Magic is relatively cheap in TROS, not counting aging, of course.

Conquer and Vision--I think your hunches and interperetations are right on. Use your own insticts as a guideline for determining what works or not, regardless of the "hard rules" (I believe the book even says to do it that way).

Summoning--This is mostly a story-springboard for those that are really into this sort of thing and want to incorporate something like Ron's Sorcerer rule into TROS. Sorcery and the Fey will have more on it, though.

Addit'l drain of summoning--The main place where this comes up is the "mana" spells, which refresh your pools. Without this "balancer" all sorcerers have unlimited spell pools at no cost.

"Irrevocably lost" yeah...replace them through character advancement.

Limits of Magic
We just don't want any ressurections...when you're dead, STAY DEAD. All that "come back from the dead" stuff cheapens dying.

Animation, and all the bits and peices you added, are right in line with TROS philosophy.

Fire may not suddenly appear and burn on nothing
1. How does this rule effect and allow the example from the story where Snowden turns a man into a human torch?

Maintaining and Constant Durations
1. I am a little confused on this, so I will state my understanding for you to confirm or deny. I believe that to maintain a spell, you simply state that you are maintaining it, and (CTN - # of success on the spellcasting roll) SP dice do not refresh until you drop the maintained spell. If the SP refreshes 1 point every hour, then any spell maintained for less than an hour has no appreciable negative effect whatsoever.

2. Given that the above is true, I see little point in making spells Constant unless you wish the spell to last for several hours or more, even considering the limitations on maintaining (number of maintained spells, need for concentration on the tasks at hand). The cost for summoning the magic to make the spell constant (1-3 months of instant aging, plus whatever aging effects for casting the spell to make it Constant) considerably outweighs the penalties for sustaining.

Dormant Spells
1. If I'm reading this right, I can use my full SP to cast a dormant spell into my own mind and save it for later. Admittedly I risk aging twice, but I am able to implant focused SP along with the spell, which could be a real lifesaver when my actual SP gets used up. I could even implant a Refreshing Spell into my own mind for an emergency fix. Any reason why I can't actually do this?

Okay, so would my example of simply causing the wound to heal via simple application of Growth work? Admittedly, there will be the effects of scarring, or permanent effects of the injury, and a heaping helping of pain, but would it work?

It also seems that Table 6.6 is missing from the book. How does one find the bonuses for Formalized Spells? Also, by looking it also seems that tables 6.5, 6.7, and 6.8 are all missing as well, as it goes from 6.4 to 6.9 (with a mention of 6.6, but no table to be found). Anything for this?

Wolfen wrote: As for his comments on players having to adjust to the game, I agree, but in a different light. Yes, players will have to make some serious adjustments, but I think that they will enjoy it immensely once they make the mental connection that this is not D&D. I, for one, am looking forward to playing this game, albeit with certain tweaks to things that I simply do not like, from a simulationist/metaphysical standpoint.

Jake wrote: Ace--welcome to our official forum. Jake

(2) Remember that a shimmering ghost or shady illusion will still be scary as hell to most of Weyrth's superstitious populace. There are tons of creative ways to use even the smallest spells.

Addit'l drain of summoning--The main place where this comes up is the "mana" spells, which refresh your pools. Without this "balancer" all sorcerers have unlimited spell pools at no cost.

We just don't want any ressurections...when you're dead, STAY DEAD. All that "come back from the dead" stuff cheapens dying.

Snowden used one of the friction spells (ignite or one of its relatives), and the fuel for the spell was the poor burning sap and his clothing. We're really trying to avoid "comic-book magic" as found in most FRPGs, including things like fireballs racing through the air with no fuel.

Wow, you're the first to notice that (well, we did...but we hoped you guys wouldn't). The repositioning of 6.4 is just a typo, nothing more. as for bonuses for formalized spells, that's on table 6.6, p 115.

Ace wrote: Oh and please post your metaphysics when the are ready I am eager to see them.

Wolfen wrote:

(2) Remember that a shimmering ghost or shady illusion will still be scary as hell to most of Weyrth's superstitious populace. There are tons of creative ways to use even the smallest spells.

Point, and thank you.

Addit'l drain of summoning--The main place where this comes up is the "mana" spells, which refresh your pools. Without this "balancer" all sorcerers have unlimited spell pools at no cost.

I can live with that. However, methinks it would be worthwhile to include an option of either resisting this aging as well, rather than it being a set cost. Also, I'd also think about including an option, as mentioned in both my post and Ace's to be able to take the drain from someone else, using a summoning spell, to "summon" their life force. Definitely a nasty for a Necromancer type.

We just don't want any ressurections...when you're dead, STAY DEAD. All that "come back from the dead" stuff cheapens dying.

That works for me. I'm considering something similar in my own game, or at the very least making it risky, expensive, and of dubious effect if I decide to make it possible at all. However, this is right in line with RoS' lethality and seriousness levels.

Firestrike
Spell of One
CTN =5 (casting time 5 seconds)
T)1 R)2 V)2 D)0 L)1
Varary: Movement1
Effect: Growth 1 (contract1) Speed1 Lift1

Cast on a fire the sorcerer compresses burning gasses of the fire into a dense ball and hurls them at a target. The range of a spell is ten yard from any fire source in the caster line of sight.
Damage is 5-TO+1 per success.

I like those spells. Those are very reasonable "fireballs" as we see it out here (and, more importantly, as you all see it out there). Hmmm...we should set up a forum just for posting spells....cool...

jake

DOH Then a revised spell of one version

Spell of One
CTN =5 (casting time 5 seconds)
T)1 R)2 V)2 D)0 L)1
Varary: Movement1
Effect: Speed1 Lift1

Cast on a fire the sorcerer grabs burning gasses and material of the fire and hurls them at a target. The range of a spell is ten yard from any fire source in the caster line of sight.
Damage is 5-TO+1 per success

Better?

But it's still a spell of 3, as you're using the Growth Vagary and the Movement vagary.

Jake

Jake wrote: But it's still a spell of 3, as you're using the Growth Vagary and the Movement vagary.

Jake