I want to describe what I'm doing this year for production so people who do in house production or are interested in that can see one way of doing it. I am open to questions on how to do this and debate on advantages and disadvantages of doing things in house.

I start with the assumption that most publishers on the Forge use PDF and POD methods. These are solid approaches especially if you are doing books but are by definition outsourcing. I also know that Ryan at Guild of Blades does in house production (on a much larger scale that myself). I don't know who else does production in this way.

This years products: Last year I did hard back book products and tested laminated fold out folio games (a laminated map and character sheet with rules on the back). The folios sold out, the books didn't so my plan this year is to further develop the folio games. I have three levels of production. The simplest is a 4 panel game that has 6 characters and a straight forward story (save Mina from Dracula and capture Jack the Ripper). The rules are 2 pages and are the core basics of Engle Matrix Games. The next level up is a 6 panel laminated map with 20 characters around the outside with a scenario on the back. It uses 3 pages of rules that add a little more depth to play. The premier product is a 8 panel laminated map with 20 characters that folds up into a hardback case. A 16 page rule book inside gives 3 scenarios instead of just one. The hardback cover is laminated as well. Unlike the other games these include card board counters. All of the products are in color.

I have a low price point on them and I view them as competing in the market with Cheap Ass Games. They are similarly priced with the basic game being billed as "The game you play before the game."

PRE PRESS

I do my lay out in Adobe Pagemaker. It is all pretty straight forward. Text laid out into booklets or sheets that will go on the back side of the maps. I print out the sheets on a color laser printer and cut and paste together master copies manually using a roller paper cutter  and clear tape.  The masters are now done so my next step is to move onto printing.

PRINTING

At the end of last year I got a color photo copier that duplexes (ie can do two sided copies). I will print out the material on it. I expect to use up a toner cartridge or two and hope the machine doesn't break during the print run. Copiers are tempermental machines. Service calls are inevitable. I'm mainly printing on 11x17 28lb paper or 8.5x11 28 lb paper.

PROCESSING

Most of the work of production comes after the printing. The maps and character sheets are trimmed down so no white shows. I will use a big old guillotine paper cutter for this. The rules booklets are hand collated and folded and then stapled using an electric saddle stapler. Then they are trimmed down, probably on my little Martin Yale guillotine paper cutter.The map and character sheets are assembled by laying them on a work surface (I use a sewing cutting map) and taping them together with clear duck tape. I make some pre folds in the sheets to help out the later folding task and then run the thing through the laminator (3 mil film) twice (so it is covered by 6 mil.) The covers and counter sheets are run through as well two at a time (so the back sides are not laminated.) For the first two types of games, production is nearly over. I will fold the maps up (probably with the aid of a travel iron) and set them under weight to flatten them out. The premium game have more work in them. First I have to paste the counter sheet to chip board and cut them out into strips (the players can finish the trimming with scissors).

MAKING HARDBACK CASES

This is the most time consuming step. First I have to cut out binders board into cover size rectangles. This is why I got the big paper cutter. It can cut through ten sheets of binders board. Thwack! Next I place the now trimmed out cover sheets face down on a straight edge. I place a thin template on the flat edge that marks where the covers need to be and assures that I have enough space on that side to do the folding of the edges over. I put a think strip of white glue on the top of cover boards and place them on the sheet. This is then put under pressure. Once dried I will flip the cover over, lift up the cover sheet and paint yes paste on the cover board. Lay the cover sheet down and using a rubber roller (mine is an etchers tool for spreading ink) press the sheet down. This is placed back under weight and left to dry. A 45 degree snip is taken off each of the corners and the sides are folded over in preparation of pasting the side flaps down. I paint on the paste and fold over using a strip of cardboard. I then clamp it down using office binder clips. This is done for all four sides and the case is set aside to dry. The last step is to paste down an end paper on the inside of the case. Place under weight and left to dry. The hard back case is now done.

ASSEMBLY

The premium game has to be assembled. The rules booklet is pasted on one side of the case and the folded up map is glued onto the other. I'm thinking of using liquid nails. It will work but may be over kill. I'll experiment with cheaper glues later. The counter sheets are placed inside and the cover closed.

All of the products are shrunk wrapped.

NUMBERS

I will have 14 or more products ready for Gen Con (slightly fewer for Origins). My experience has been that making more than 20 copies of any one title is more than I will sell so I will make that many games. So 280 games. I may make more of the lower end products because they are easier to make and hopefully will sell better.

Will they sell? One never knows. I will be fielding a nice line up of games this year. They are unique in the market place. The rules are simple, I know from nearly 20 years of play that they are fun and still I have no way of knowing if they will fly. The buying public is fickle that way.

I mentioned a lot of equipment. I have to be honest and say it costs a lot to set something like this up and it takes a dry clean two car garage to set it up in. It isn't for everyone. I come home from my day job and work four or five hours more pretty much every day. The up side is that I'm getting outside book printing jobs which have already paid more than all my game sales combined. I also happen to like printing and book binding - which is really my primary hobby now (more than gaming).

So there you have it. One way to do in house production. Maybe next year I'll go back to books. Who knows? I will look at what sells and decide then.

Now I'm open to questions. I would also like other people who do in house production to share their work flow and methods. Ryan has shared his in the past. I just wonder if there is anyone else out there who is pursuing this kind of business model?

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

I know ADB using a POD set up for a lot of what they do. Presunmably less the really nice counters they have, as counters at that thickness are not easily made.

As for service calls on copiers, we just had our old color copier crap out on us. Service calls generally begin at $100 to $200 and definately can be more expensive, plus the cost of replacement parts. After trying one service technition who turned out to be shill trying to sell us new copiers, we opted to not fix the old one. Instead we found the same model for sale in good condition for only $350. So it uses the same toner we had and everything else we are familiar with.

$350 seems to be the going price for a used machine of that model now. Fixing them seems like a bad otpion compared to just replacing.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com

I think it would be educational and mildly fun to do updates on my progress so others can see the flow of work and learn the problems that arise.

Last night I finished making the master copies and correcting the errors I spotted. This is the time to do corrections so I did. This meant I didn't get started printing till 8:40. I'm going to make half of the games now. That will be around 1500 prints. I got through the first 50 when I noticed a problem. The copies were coming out light on one side.

As Ryan mentions, old copiers crap out. Mine is refurbished and in pretty good working order. That being said printing light on one side is not acceptable. I have to trouble shoot. With copiers the first thing you do is check to see if you are low on toner. I put in a new cartridge and it still came out light. The next step is to clean the glass, smudges there can do this. You can unscrew the top and clean the bottom side as well and also clean out the inside area just under the glass. Handy wipes work well. The technician I work with costs $120 a visit and he told me to use Windex to clean the glass. All highly available materials. I'll get some Windex tonight and clean the machine. Then I'll get back to the printing. Hopefully it will work.

It is a good idea to do color calibration each time you use the machine since the insides view of color gets wonky over time. Also since copiers get hot it is good to give breaks between printing for it to cool down. When I did a photo copied newsletter (1989 to 1994) I would give it a break after every 200 prints.

So right now I have 1450 prints to go.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

Forget everything I said about my photo copier, worthless piece of s###. Suffice it to say that it says put in toner and then doesn't accept that it has toner. It isn't working...Arrrgh!

After a couple of hours of messing with this I had to accept that it wasn't going to work. I'm in a crunch if I'm going to have product for Origins so I had to let this go and do some problem solving.

If the copier won't work how can I do the printing? My default is my HP 2500 printer. The up side is that it prints better than the copier anyway. The down side is that it pushes up ink costs from 3 cents a print to 10 cents. I won't be able to produce at a profit for distribution sales, but since I'm not getting any of these orders anyway it doesn't matter. The HP 2500 prints on 8.5x11 sheets so the 11x17 masters I made are worthless. I started the printing in batches of 5. I got through all the character sheets for the premium folio games. I can see that this machine will do a good job. At the end of the evening (10:00) I put the sheets in a book press to flatten out some.

This switch will lead to two future problems. First assembling the maps. I lay the map/character sheets out on a sewing cutter mat and tape them up with clear duck tape. If it is four 11x17 sheets I need two strips of tape. Now I'll have eight sheets so I've added two more strips of tape. This ups costs a little more. I can live with that. It will make the end product a little better anyway.

The second problem is the cover. I had planned on using a single 11x17 sheet to be the cover. Now I have to work with 8.5x11 sheets. The solution is to switch binding techniques. I will use three quarter covers. The cover sheets will be wrapped around individual pieces of binders board. Then I'll use a third sheet with the spine printed on it to connect the two boards. The cover and rear will be laminated but I think I'll coat the spine with a clear acrylic varnish. It could potentially look good.

I also needed to reformat the rule book. I had it in an 8.5x11 booklet. I need to reduce it to 5.5x8.5 size. While the characters were printing I re formated the master rules form. Tonight as I continue the printing I'll need to dump the specific scenario text in the various rules books.

While I hate that my machine has c###ed out on me I do like the excitement of pulling things together off the cuff like this. It is problems solving here and now. It is also an opportunity for my character defects to defeat me. Fortunately so far they haven't.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

Hi Chris,

For desk top printing and if you don't need to do too much large volumes, check out the Cannon I9900. It printed oversized paper 911" x 17", maybe up to 12" x 18") and is supports a massively easy refill system for its inks. You can buy a refill set for the inks online for as little as $55 fior 17 full refilles of the catridges.

I figured out that a 300DPI 8 1/2 x 11 page in full color, ful bleed would cost between $.03 and $.035. Black pages that are more text than not might be as low as $.002 to $.005. But its not that fast.

We use it to print originals for use with our copier but its also our back up printer in an emmergency.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com

Thanks Ryan. I'll look into new machines next week. I know that the weekend will be full. I have production, a wedding and a major party to attend.

Last night I finished printing the maps, changed the rule booklets to a smaller format and printed them out. Since I got the character sheets printed the night before I only lack the covers to have this round of printing done. I'm making 5 copies of each title so I'm working on 50 games.

Tonight I need to print the covers and collate and fold the rules booklets. I may get to the stapling as well.

The work went smoothly last night. I can see that the HP 2500 printer is going to be able to do this job. I will likely get to printing the next fifteen copies of each title next week but first I want to finish the ones I've started. I need to have product for Origins and it looks like I will have some - just not as much as I originally intended.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

On the evening of 6-9-06 I printed the front and back covers of the games, collated, folded and stapled the booklets. I have 50 booklets now and 100 cover sheets to process.

On 6-10-06 (Saturday) I trimmed the character sheets and booklets. I started assembling the maps. I did 10 and double laminated them. As it turned out this was a mistake because I did not properly ventilate my work area and made myself sick. Oops! I was rainy so I couldn't have openned the garage doors anyway. I should have focused on assembling. Before the day was done I had assembled the remaining maps (along the way catching the pannels I had missed printing earlier).

That evening I went to a wedding and the next day was completely taken up with my wife's social gathering - The Uppity Puppet Tea.

Yesterday 6-12-06 I took the day off sick from work. It was going to be bright with low humidity so I wanted to take advantage of the weather and get my laminating done. I double laminated all the maps and then trimmed and laminated the covers. Next I cut hte binders board which the hardbacks are made from and made a gluing placement template. This is just two pieces of binders board taped to the sewning trimming board in a 90 degreee angle and a half inch strip with the placement points marked on it. I put the cover sheet in the 90 degree arch and then lay the strip down on it so that I can place the binders board correctly. I started the cover construction by putting a thin strip of glue on the binders boards and using the template pace them on the cover sheets. These were set aside to dry. I glued all 100 cover sheets in this way. I then pasted 35 of the cover sheets to their boards. 65 more to go! In the down time while waiting for the glue to dry I re-did the map lay out for Mongolian Goat Rodeo. I'll work on that game next week.

Making hardback covers is something it took me a while to figure out. It is a multi stage process - fairly time consuming. At this point I'm not half way through it with the covers I'm working on. The process is as follows: Print cover sheets, trim them as needed, laminate them (1.5mm film), cut them out, cut binders board, make template, glue binders board to covers, Lift the cover sheet up and paint on a thin coat of "Yes Paste" lay the sheet back down and press it with a rubber roller. place it between boards and stack it till it drys. This is where I'm at now. Next trim on the corners of the cover sheet, fold the sides over, apply paste to the sides and fold over using another piece of binders board, clamp the sides over using office binder clips, set aside to dry, paste all four sides.  When folding over the second set of sides you need to crimp down the over lay of the cover sheet so that it folds cleanly. My present covers only have three sides because I'm going to use a separate sheet of be the spine. Because of this the next step is to print the spines coat them with a clear acrylic glossy varnish and trim them out. Use a thin strip of glue to attach the spine sheet to the two covers. Once dry apply paste, roll and stack to dry. Nextfold the sides of the spine sheet over, paste them and press them down and clamp with binders clamps. If I was going to use a spine board I would glue it in before doing this. I tend to use white glue to place spine boards but one could use paste.

At this point the process divides. If I was going to use the case for a book then I would be placing the book block into the case and clamping in the hinge using still more office binder clips. Since the ones I'm making now are not becoming books I will cut the end papers and paste them to the back of the hard back cover. I may do this with three separate pieces of paper. I may only use one sheet. Either way the pasting starts with the spine. Then the sides are pasted and placed under wight to dry. The Cover is now done and ready to have the game bits put in it.

Tonight I think I will finish up the first stage of pasting, trim the corners on the dry boards and paste over the sides. I may be able to get through all the covers tonight.

It looks like I will have my games ready for Origins but only just. It is a good thing that the low end games do not need a cover. They would be complete after the laminating step.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

I'd be interested in seeing photos of your equipment/process.

On 6-13-06 I pasted cover sheets to the remaining 65 covers, trimmed the corners off of 70 of the covers and pasted and folded over 2 of the 3 sides on 20 covers.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

I was sick a few days and at home - no internet so no report. Now I'm back so here is the  run down of the work flow.

6-14-06

I snipped the corners off of the remaining 30 covers. I did the 3rd fold on 20 of the covers. Then I did the 1st and 2nd folds on 70 other covers. Before coming in I mixed up a few new batches of paste.

6-15-06

I finished the 1st and 2nd folds on the remaining 10 covers and then did the 3rd fold on all 80 covers. I then printed the spines but half of them were not useable due to there being a white line in them.

6-16-06

Reprinted the ruined spines and pasted them all to the front covers. It was then that I discovered I had made a fatal flaw in the back covers. Oops! This always happens when I try out a new process. I pasted the back covers to the board just like I did the front covers. I should have done them in mirror opposite. As it was it was like sewing up 100 left shirt cuffs and making no right ones. This is a costly mistake in time and material but it is what it is and you move on. So I stripped the lamination film off the back covers so I could reuse the binders board. It is amazing how quickly you can destroy something if that is your intent.

Since I had to redo the lamination anyway I decided to start the production on the beginners games (Dracula and Jack the Ripper). I printed the back covers and printed 20 each of the two beginners games. I didn't realize it at the time but I forgot to print one of the game back covers so only really printed 45 back covers rather than 50. I had 85 pieces of paper that I then laminated with 1.5 mil film.

6-17-06 Saturday

No production today, instead I had to go to a wedding in Northern Indiana. Four hours there, four hours back. No time left for work. The up side is that in all that driving time I thought up six new titles for beginners games. I may work on these in my down time at my day job in the next week.

6-18-06

I got started late so I only did 9 or 10 hours of work today. My task for the day was to build all of the back cover hard backs. I decided to do it in a different order in pursuit of greater efficiency. First I glued the covers to the binders board as I had done before but this time only use office binder clips to hold it together. Then I clipped the corners from all the covers. Next I did folded over the outside edge (what I called the 3rd fold above.) Again this was held together with office binder clips. Next I pasted the cover sheet to the board. I used fewer rolls of the rubber roller and then clipped the cover down rather than press it between boards. This let the board warp when drying but did work to hold the cover sheet down. Then I did the top and bottom fold overs, clamping them as I did the others. Throughout all these steps I used a hot travel iron to reseal the lamination film as it popped. Lamination film does not like to bend a lot.

I spotted that I had missed doing one game titles worth of covers at the end of the day. Another oops. The others though were done. I have half of them now clamped between two boards.  The other half still had top and bottom folds drying. I will clamp them up tomorrow to deal with the warping.

What this day showed me is that I can process between 20 and 25 books worth of hardback cases in a day. This is way too slow to be an industrial process but is viable as a craft business that I do for fun and a little extra money. Clearly the purely laminated folios are the products that will make more money. Good thing I thought of those new titles.

At the end of the day I did some planning on how to do paper back books. I have a few ideas but will need to experiment.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

6-19-06

I set the hard back games aside and focused on the beginners games. I assembled 40 games. This consisted of taping the pannels together with clear duck tape. They are ready to be laminated.

I had a little timie so I unclipped the remaining back covers of the hardbacks and started clipping on end papers. I plan to paste these down and stack them under wieght to dry.

The pending problems? I have to laminate - this means openning the garage doors for ventilation. The weather forecast calls for rain every day between now and when I leave for Origins. I will have to jump in between rain showers, no optimal.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

6-20-06

I printed the 5 back covers for "The Case of the Dead Duke" and also 20 of the front and back cover sheets for "Mongolian Goat Rodeo". Then I laminated them and trimmed them out. I'm pretty sure I won't get Goat Rodeo done for Origins but I will have it for Gen Con.

Next I changed out the lamination (12" out, 27" in) and laminated the 40 beginners games (Dracula and Jack the Ripper). I folded these up and used a roller paper cutter to trim them down. I then clamped them between two boards to make the crease tight. They are essentially ready for sale - all that remains is shrink wrapping them.

To round off the evening I finished clipping end papers to the hardback folio games. Tonight I'll paste them down and try to finish assembling the hardback cases. After that it is on to final assembly of the games.

6-21-06

I pasted end papers on 95 covers and put them in clamps to dry. Then I worked on the 5 covers that I missed earlier. I trimmed the sheets from the lamination and trimmed them down, eye balled placing them on the binders board and clipped them down, put on the glue strip, clipped that down, pasted the sheet down and re-clipped it down, trimmed the corners off and pasted over the first fold and clipped it. The covers are literally covered in office binders clips but I was able to move through a lot of steps all at once.

One problem I spotted is with the spine papers. I had to fold them over when I put on the end papers on the front covers because I had already attached them. They were painted in a clear acrylic paint which stuck to itself. I feared that would happen. Acrylic paint drys quickly but doesn't fully dry. The paint needs a few weeks to cure. Once fully cured it doesn't stick any more - till then this problem can occur.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

MatrixGamer wrote:
One problem I spotted is with the spine papers. I had to fold them over when I put on the end papers on the front covers because I had already attached them. They were painted in a clear acrylic paint which stuck to itself. I feared that would happen. Acrylic paint drys quickly but doesn't fully dry. The paint needs a few weeks to cure. Once fully cured it doesn't stick any more - till then this problem can occur.

The brand is called "Golden" pretty good art paint.

It is pretty humid in Southern Indiana this time of year and it's been a wet year in general. I never thought of taking a hair dryer to it though.

BTW the techniques I'm describing are the ones I was thinking about when when talked about doing Hungry Hungry Dragon. Which I'm still interested it.

Chris Engle

6-22-06

I folded over and pasted the tops and bottoms of the 5 back covers I previously missed and then pasted on end papers. Then I clamped them to dry.

Next I pasted together the front and back covers of the 45 other games. I had time to paste over the spine paper and put in a backing of paper on 10 of those covers. They are ready for final assembly.

I'll finish up the rest of the spines tonight and work on assembly tomorrow (Saturday). That will mean I can do shrink wrapping on Sunday.

Inshaallah all will go well.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

6-23-06

I pasted together  the front and back covers of the 5 Dead Duke games. Folded over the edges of the spine and added backing paper to the spines. Then I trimmed and folded 10 of the laminated maps for the games.

I used two layers of lamination on these maps. This leads to a lot of correction work. I have to use a travel iron to tack things down. I have a test map from last year that used only one layer of lamination film that does not have this problem. I'll try that next time round. Less material, fewer problems - all good.

6-24-06 Saturday

I started the day off pasting the rule booklets into the appropriate game covers. I am now in final assembly. Next I trimmed and folded the other 40 maps. In the afternoon I glued the maps into the covers using liquid nails. I clipped the maps into the cover using four office clips. Liquid nails does not take too long to dry but does take some time. It is an interesting material. Once you open the container the air starts a chemical reaction that leads to the entire tube drying. You use it all at one setting because even if closed it will set up.

The games are ready for shrink wrapping so I cleaned off the machine. While doing so I came across some failed prototypes of the folio game. I can sell them in clearance as seconds. This led me to look over the other clearance items: hardbacks from last year, laminated paperbacks from 2004 and non-laminated paperbacks from 2003. More than enough to provide something for the gamer without much money to spend.

6-25-06

I removed the clamps from the games and did some touch up work. In production things always get dinted and nicked. When I learned to do picture framing I was shown the cheats that hide the dings. In this case it means taking a black felt tipped marker and filling in the scuff marks on the spines.

This lead to the last step - shrink wrapping. I wrapped and shrunk the 50 hardback folio games, the 40 beginners games and the clearance folios. If you've never used a shrink wrapper they consist of a roll of film that forms a pocket. Roll it out, stick your item into the pocket and then place a heating arm behind it. My machine is 30 years old (my Dad bought in new in the 70's) so it has a separate heating arm but I've seen newer ones where the arm is like the arm of a paper cutter. Press the button and the arm heats up, melting the pastic. Pulling on the item separates it from the roll. Then use the arm a second time to seal the pocket. The shrinker is effectively a hair drier. Before you use it though you prick a hole in the wrapping to let the hot air out. The blower shrinks the plastic wrap tight.

With that the work I set out to do three weeks ago is done.

LIGHTNING STRIKES!

One of the cool things about owning the means of production is that sometimes the energy hits you and you can pull together amazing things in no time flat. At 5PM I was done with production. The only game I didn't get done was Mongolian Goat Rodeo. I told a fellow at Marcon (a Columbus Ohio science fiction con) that I would have the game for Origins. I knew I couldn't do a hardback folio but it occurred to me that I could do a lamination only folio and try out using only one layer of film. I had everything written and most of it laid out but that had to be scrapped because I could make the maps an inch larger. Anyway I decided to try making the game.

First I made a slightly larger map template (complete with lines because this game uses squares.) I dropped the maps in the template and figured out how the folio had to be laid out to fold correctly. By 7PM I started the printing. I printed 10 copies of the game. Then I did trimming and moved on to assembling. While I taped up the folios I had the laminator heating up. Some time around 9PM I was done with the assembly and the laminator was warmed up. I did the laminating and then trimmed down the folios and folded them up. I'm including stickers of counters which were stuffed in the fold of the folio. That done, I moved onto the shrink wrapping. By 10PM I was done!

This adds $145 more in product and means I'm taking 100 new games to this year's conventions a total of 13 new titles. The products fit in three boxes which are now packed waiting transport to Origins - two days from now.

SO IT'S ALL DONE, RIGHT?

Done? Hummmm...? Not for me. I an the Hamster's bitch after all. No, next up is to get the puppets and toys priced and packed (largely my wife's job) and for me to get the show booth displays together. I don't have much time for this so I think Origins will be pretty spartan. I can do that tomorrow. Tonight I think I will return to the project I was on before June. I need to do a hardback proof of a science fiction novel for Scott Palter - Final Sword Productions. I may not get it done for Origins but Scott will be happy to know I'm back on his project.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

When I get back from Origins I'll look into putting up pictures of the machines used in this little adventure.

Thanks for reading. I will post one more entry on this thread telling where to see the pictures. I invite questions about anything but if there are none then this thread is nearly over.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games

A link to a picture of a laminator

http://www.officezone.com/ez27lam.htm

A link to a business selling binder board

http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=23279

A link to a picture of my small paper cutter

http://www.machine-solution.com/product-cutters11-273.html?source=froogleAd#

A link to a picture of a machine similar to my large paper cutter (the top one)

http://www.binderytools.com/productsdisp.asp?dep=3

BTW I've bought a couple of big machines from these guys - they are solid.

This picture at the bottem of this link is a newer version of a Smyth sewing machine. Mine is older. I didn't use it in this job but I will be using next week on the job I'm doing now (Astaria - a science fiction novel by Terri Pray).

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sntfworld.com/images/threadbooksewingmachine.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.sntfworld.com/sntf_prod_bindingequipments.htm&h=263&w=324&sz=36&hl=en&start=31&tbnid=Ctzb09a8nUaZ9M:&tbnh=92&tbnw=114&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dnational%2Bsewing%2Bmachine%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

The other tools I used were brushes, wood boards, office binder clips and c clamps. You can imagine what they look like. I will end with a link to a good source of Yes Paste.

http://www.misterart.com/store/view/003/group_id/8785/Yes-Paste.htm

With that this thread is closed.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press = Engle Matrix Games