hey folks...

i'm looking for a Print on Demand (POD) company to make cards.  my cards need to be somewhat larger than playing card size, something on the order of 3" by 5".  I did several searches around here, and only came up with one company so far... RapidPOD. 

those posts were about 6 months old, so i was going to check if anyone knew of any new POD's doing cards.

anyone?

derek

I guess the next question would be "how many cards do you need?" and "what sort of quality?". There are places that sell perfed sheets for do-it-yourself projects, in conventional playing card and larger sizes, but these are just generic cardstock. I think there may be some special coated stock that gives good results with inkjet printers, but these would still be inferior to "real" cards. You might check out:

http://bgdf.com/catalog/

http://www.plaincards.com/Shop/shopdisplaycategories.asp

http://www.newtscards.com/search_results.asp?iLevel=2&subcat=82

Greg
BTRC

Watch this page:
http://www.avalonteam.com/cap_cards.html

Not sure how big a single run would have to be, but the owner is very attentive and helpful.

Hi David,

You've used Avalon? Can you post about the experience?

Paul

Paul,
David has worked with them while helping me on Perfect (He has been doing book layout, etc).

I can speak to my involvement with Avalon, although I don't yet have a finished book in my hands.
Lance has been courteous, easy to work with, and good at answering questions.

I've heard good things about their finished products... but obviously won't be able to pass judgement on that until I have my books in hand.

I highly reccomend them.

Let's see,  # of Cards...

80 per deck with full color. each card has a common back with full color.

quality needs to be professional.  home made just won't cut it.

derek

oh, by the way thank you to everyone that has posted so far!

I have spoken to the folks at Avalon, but they are not quite ready to print cards yet.

i haven't gotten ahold of the folks at RapidPOD, but i'm a little bit leary of their reputation at this point.

any other sources that anyone knows of?

derek

Just an update -

I contacted RapidPOD - they are not setup to do larger sized cards but expect to be in the 90 days or so. 

Still looking...

derek

phetish wrote: 80 per deck with full color. each card has a common back with full color.

The best I can say for Avalon's short run card capabilities, is that we are a few weeks out.  We have just been having a huge run around with the company making our dies, to the point I have a meeting first thing Monday morning (6/19/06) to talk to another local die maker.  The first die maker not only doubled the original estimates for the dies, but they also changed the sizes of the files I sent them for the dies (which I luckily caught).

We are having dies made for 4 different size cards: biz card (2"x3.5"); bridge (56 x 87 mm), poker(63 x 88 mm) and a tarot(3” x 5” or 76.2 x 127 mm ). For each card size for are looking at a approx 60 and 120 card tuck box. Also looking at a larger box, similar to what the Munchkin used to come in.

We were also able to secure a supply of real playing card stock with a clay core that works on our digital machine.  I've actually heard it called a clay core and a clay coating, but whatever it really is, the stock has more spring to it than normal paper stock does.

And we have found a coating that works on the digital prints.  So, we will be able to do a gloss and flat varnish on the cards.  We have done some cards already for Dan Ridenhour over at Digital Alchemy that were uncoated and he's reported that they have held up very well.

Now we will not be doing any sort of foil packs, the equipment is just too expensive.  I'm also not sure about randomization, we have a decent variable data software package, but I'm not sure just how we would do that effectively yet.  The cards will be shrink wrapped, but will not have the pull string for unwrapping.  Again, the equipment is just too expensive.

We are also still testing materials and methods for board game production.  Mostly down to securing a suitable and affordable backing material.

I hope that helps answer some of the questions of where we are and what we will be offering.  Feel free to chime in to offer suggestion in what we are looking to offer.

Thanks,

Lance Williams
Avalon Innovations
www.AvalonTeam.com

I do not recommend RapidPOD. Ken Whitman makes a career out of telling people what they want to hear. "Ninety days or so" is standard bullshit.

I have tried to warn people here against working with him in the past, and tried to soft-peddle it. My soft-peddling was actually mis-read as a recommendation by at least one person. I watched that person wait until well into GenCon for his books to arrive, weeks behind schedule. I watched him open those books to demonstrate to customers, and watched the pages fall onto the floor.

So soft-peddling is over. I've met Ken. He's nice. Which means nothing in this context. What matters is that he is extremely well-known for telling people what they want to hear, and since he sounds nice (and may well mean it), people believe it. But his career in RPG publishing for almost twenty years is littered with the bloated bodies of abandoned, ill-managed, or not-followed-up projects.

Full disclosure: I have not worked with Ken and have no history of financial loss, disagreement, or disgruntlement with him. This post concerns printing and publishing, based on my observations of others and their companies, for quite a long time.

I do not recommend using Rapid POD.

Best, Ron

Hi Lance,

I would be interested in hearing your pricing for printing POD cards (poker sized) for 1/1, 4/4, and 4/1. With listed prices for any breaks on volume.

We do our own boxes, so mainly just interested in the cards.

Thanks,
Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com

Agreed on RapidPOD, I was one of the publishers screwed at GenCon last year and dealt with him lying through his teeth over on RPG.net's forums. Eventually he made good with several of the publishers wronged, but way too late - I personally missed out on a LOT of orders through Key20 because of Ken's timing. And as for his card printing- that was always "Next week" last summer, with no explanation. So I don't know that they're actually operational.

As for card printing: Avalon looks to be the best bet (and I'm eagerly awaiting- I've got dibs!!) for any kind of short run printing of cards. The other companies mentioned are NOT short run companies, or at least to them "short run" is about 1000+ units (and its incredibly difficult to move that many card games- RPGs are a breeze compared to them). Early quotes put most domestic printers at about $5-6 a deck at low quantities, which means about $5-$6k. One company in Michigan, DeLano, will go lower than 1000, but the rates are just nuts at that point.

And as for Avalon's printing, awesome. Lance is very cool, works with you on anything and everything, quality is awesome, and he won't let poor quality out of the house. Did have a couple books per run that came out messed up, Lance checked with me and adjusted the order & billing accordingly. Sometimes he's a bit slow on e-mails, but he does get back to you and gets things taken care of.

Well, it sounds like Avalon is the way to go... I'm very happy to hear that Lance's quality is excellent - I'm preparing some files to have printed on his card stock, so that I can see the quality of the prints and the cardstock.

I'll report back once I've had a chance to see them.

Derek

You may be pleasantly surprised by the capabilities of your local print shop. I was.

Ron wrote:
I do not recommend RapidPOD. Ken Whitman makes a career out of telling people what they want to hear. "Ninety days or so" is standard bullshit.

Ken,

Instead of telling people what you're about to be able to do and when you might be able to finish something, you should tell people exactly what you can actually do and stick to doing it. Once that happens, consistently, then you'll see me supporting your company. Right now, there are many excellent POD companies that do exactly what they promote, and at present, yours does not begin to compete.

Best, Ron

Really? In 30 days?

Ken, Under the Bed has been on the market for almost two years. You spoke to me when I was first looking for printers and told me that you'd be able to print me cards in 30 days, that the system was almost worked out and you'd be able to do my production runs.

I have no doubt that you want this to be true. It's not like any of us have money worth swindling. But every "about to" and "in 30 days" you say makes you less and less professional.

But honestly, I don't care about your professionalism. I care about getting my product manufactured. I want to have confidence that my manufacturers can do their jobs. When I see some things that you've produced and I see them made in a reasonable amount of time (i.e. the amount of time you agreed to take when the job was set up) then I'll consider your service. Until then, Under the Bed is produced at Collective Copies, alongside Polaris and Dogs in the Vineyard, and The Shab Al-Hiri Roach is produced at Kinko's.

Both Jason and I want something better, but we don't just want to be told we'll get something better.

Joshua wrote:
Really? In 30 days?

Ken, Under the Bed has been on the market for almost two years. You spoke to me when I was first looking for printers and told me that you'd be able to print me cards in 30 days, that the system was almost worked out and you'd be able to do my production runs.

I have no doubt that you want this to be true. It's not like any of us have money worth swindling. But every "about to" and "in 30 days" you say makes you less and less professional.

But honestly, I don't care about your professionalism. I care about getting my product manufactured. I want to have confidence that my manufacturers can do their jobs. When I see some things that you've produced and I see them made in a reasonable amount of time (i.e. the amount of time you agreed to take when the job was set up) then I'll consider your service. Until then, Under the Bed is produced at Collective Copies, alongside Polaris and Dogs in the Vineyard, and The Shab Al-Hiri Roach is produced at Kinko's.

Both Jason and I want something better, but we don't just want to be told we'll get something better.

Ken, you've already opened your mouth. You're continually making promises. Just produce some stuff in appropriate volume already. Prove that you're not just making stuff up to say what people want to hear.

100 units at a time is how I publish UtB. But I see no reason to trust your service until I see you producing what you say you can. If you'd made no promises at all, hadn't been saying "in 30 days" for years, I'd try you out. As it stands, you're selling snake oil.

PS Under the Bed has been on the market for one year, not two. I first started looking at publishing options two years ago, though. Sorry about the inadvertent lying in my above post.

Joshua, knock it off. What possible expectation can you have for Ken to admit anything or to say something you want him to say? If you want to conduct a pissing match, private email is where you should take it.

All the information is available for people to read, so this thread is now closed.

Best, Ron