I'm playing with converting some elements of the Hârn setting (currently working on religion) to Sorcerer, and I can't find a lot of "debuffs" (to borrow MMORPG terminology) among the demonic abilities.  Basically, I'm looking for the opposite of a Boost.  Should I just add a description to a Special Damage ability that remove the desired trait, e.g. remove X Will for morale purposes only, or reduce combat skills by Y?

Thanks,
Scott

None of the above. The effect you describe does not exist in Sorcerer. There is no "penalties to one thing, but not another," in this game. All damage applies to all rolls. There are a few exceptions, but they are not quite exceptions because they are not damage, e.g., Punish.

I'm not sure whether the following concept helps you to understand why, but here goes: the scores in Sorcerer are not parsed out among physical, mental, and whatever as they are in most RPGs. All the scores are physical and mental.

My general recommendation when converting to Sorcerer is not to be literal at all. If it were possible to convert to Sorcerer from, say, GURPS, on a 1:1 basis, then there would have been no point in writing the game, I would just have used GURPS in the first place. If you really want to play Sorcerer, then you're going to have to leave certain things in your initial system or setting behind.

So my question to you is not, why use Sorcerer, but rather, why use anything to do with Hârn at all? I'd like a very concrete answer, not something like, "Oh, I just like it," or something like that. Tell me what specific elements of Hârn you're working with, and what you think their primary power or content is. Then I can see what Sorcerer can do for you.

Best, Ron

Best, Ron

Ron wrote: None of the above. The effect you describe does not exist in Sorcerer. There is no "penalties to one thing, but not another," in this game. All damage applies to all rolls. There are a few exceptions, but they are not quite exceptions because they are not damage, e.g., Punish.

Ron wrote: I'm not sure whether the following concept helps you to understand why, but here goes: the scores in Sorcerer are not parsed out among physical, mental, and whatever as they are in most RPGs. All the scores are physical and mental.

Ron wrote: My general recommendation when converting to Sorcerer is not to be literal at all. If it were possible to convert to Sorcerer from, say, GURPS, on a 1:1 basis, then there would have been no point in writing the game, I would just have used GURPS in the first place. If you really want to play Sorcerer, then you're going to have to leave certain things in your initial system or setting behind.

So my question to you is not, why use Sorcerer, but rather, why use anything to do with Hârn at all? I'd like a very concrete answer, not something like, "Oh, I just like it," or something like that. Tell me what specific elements of Hârn you're working with, and what you think their primary power or content is. Then I can see what Sorcerer can do for you.

Hi Randulf,

Yes, Daze and Cloak are the abilities I did not list, and they too are not exceptions, because, as with Punish, they are not damage.

Have you played Sorcerer yet? There are ways to answer your question about why there are no score-specific damage effects, but which way depends very greatly on your previous experience with the game.

I really like your answer regarding the Harn setting, because it means you're talking about a Sorcerer game influenced by those readings, rather than a conversion in the usual gaming sense. I can work with that.

The basic story of a battle between deities being waged in our world with humans as itermediaries is easily converted to Sorcerer terms - just accept that most of the deities are demon lords of some sort with hosts of servitors that their devoted clerics have rituals for binding and/or pacting with.

Ron wrote:
Have you played Sorcerer yet? There are ways to answer your question about why there are no score-specific damage effects, but which way depends very greatly on your previous experience with the game.

Ron wrote: I really like your answer regarding the Harn setting, because it means you're talking about a Sorcerer game influenced by those readings, rather than a conversion in the usual gaming sense. I can work with that.

Ron wrote:

The basic story of a battle between deities being waged in our world with humans as itermediaries is easily converted to Sorcerer terms - just accept that most of the deities are demon lords of some sort with hosts of servitors that their devoted clerics have rituals for binding and/or pacting with.

You might consider backing up a little further to the source fiction which led to most game settings of this kind: the Elric stories by Michael Moorcock. If you do, I suggest highly selective readings based on their order of actual publication.

Ron wrote: One problem with the way this concept has been implemented in RPG design is to treat what a given demon lord wants as an ideology that his followers have embraced. In which case, the cleric becomes a rather stupid, rather uninteresting character. I suggest instead that what humans get out of following the particular god/demonlord is perfectly reasonable in human terms, i.e., it's something that people might actually want. And to top that off, a sorcerer character by definition is capable of separating his or her desires from those of the demons they interact with. Without that, the Sorcerer rules don't work at all.

With that in mind, it seems to me as if your concern with the setting per se should come secondary to a concern with the character descriptors. They are really the "make choices" element of character creation, far more so than whatever whacked ideologies or goals the demons may have.

Ron wrote: The answer to your final question is no, Boosting a score does not secondarily increase Cover. Boost only applies to Stamina, Lore, or Will, and it only affects that single thing. To confirm your correct reading, Cover is not Boosted. If you want a demon-augmented Cover skill, then you'll need a demon with a high Power, the Cover ability that it can confer to the character, and define the demon's Cover as the same as the character's. It's a pricey ability, because it won't yield much "sauce" unless the demon's Power is substantially higher than the character's Cover. That's on purpose.

Right, those descriptors. The list you use should be fixed for all player-characters and most likely for most NPCs as well, for a given setting for Sorcerer. This is ... well, it's a big deal. Trust me on that.

As for my answer to your question, now that I know you're still amping up to play for the first time, I'll put it this way:

Sorcerer cannot be gamed. That's right, you cannot find ways to knock out another character's "best defense" in a strategic, focused way through the use of any particular ability. You can strategize, certainly, but not in the highly modular fashion that you might find in most other RPGs.

In other words, if you want the guy to have less dice than you in the next bit of conflict, you're gonna have to earn it with a regular attack just like anyone else. No ability gets you around that.

Best, Ron

Ron wrote: Sorcerer cannot be gamed. That's right, you cannot find ways to knock out another character's "best defense" in a strategic, focused way through the use of any particular ability. You can strategize, certainly, but not in the highly modular fashion that you might find in most other RPGs.

In other words, if you want the guy to have less dice than you in the next bit of conflict, you're gonna have to earn it with a regular attack just like anyone else. No ability gets you around that.

Having poked around for inspiration on descriptors, I realized that what I need to do is develop my One Sheet (To Rule Them All?).  Stay tuned, I'll be asking for feedback once it's ready.

Here's some initial thoughts for feedback.  I'm a little unsure about the Lore descriptors, as they overlap somewhat with Covers.  Thoughts?

What are Demons?
Demons are extradimensional beings that have existed since the beginning of time, normally residing in the realm of Yashain.  Some demons are organized into factions which battle each other literally in Yashain and indirectly, via humanity, on Kelestia, while others remain neutral.  Some call them gods, demigods, or spirits, functionally they are all demons in Sorcerer terms.

What are Sorcerers and what is Lore?
Sorcerers know rituals that can breach the veil between the worlds.  This requires casting the mind outside of normal boundaries, which carries the risk of exposing the naked mind to chaotic forces that can break down the psyche. Institutional knowledge of Lore is concentrated in the Shek-Pvar Convocations and in the churches of the various Harnic religions.

What is Humanity?
The ego - self determination and conscious intention.  As Humanity is lost, the consciousness frays and otherworldly forces begin to gain a toehold - this is not demonic possession but an increase in the psychic noise level.  At 0 Humanity, the ego is lost, the player is no longer in control, and the Story drives the character.  (I like this description, but does it result in Humanity being too close to Will?  I'm at a bit of a loss for when to test for Humanity gain or loss and what to use Humanity checks for... help!)

Stamina Descriptors
Outdoorsman. You have spent much of your time outdoors, and have honed your skills in hunting, outdoor survival, hearing and smell.  E.g. woodsman, bandit, or nomad.
Life of labor. Your body has been hardened by years of physical labor.  E.g. peasant, blacksmith, menial laborer.
Trained soldier. You have served in a military unit and have picked up weapon skills and useful social contacts. E.g. guardsman, knight, yeoman.
Big and strong.
Natural vigor. You are one of those irrirating people who are in shape without trying.
Scrapper. Your upbringing included frequent physical violence.

Will Descriptors
Code of Honor. You live by system of rules that tell you right from wrong.
Religious Piety. Faith sustains you.
Intriguer. You can pry information out of people and find a way to use it later.
Aristocrat. Your social status reinforces your knowledge that your way is best.
Angry. You bear a grudge that motivates you.
Vow. You've sworn an oath and you intend to fulfill it.
Charismatic.  A natural leader.

Lore Descriptors
Naive (suggested Lore 1) You don't understand it, but you have a peculiar little friend.
Apprentice (suggested Lore 1) Religious acolyte, Shek-Pvar apprentice, or other trainee.  Unless you have dropped out, you likely have significant duties.
Satia-Mavari (suggested Lore 2-3).  A journeyman mage of the Shek-Pvar, travelling the world gathering knowledge.
Viran (suggested Lore 4+). A master mage of the Shek-Pvar, possibly pursuing your studies in a chantry, or possibly continuing to seek Lore where you can find it.
Cleric (suggested Lore 1-3).  Most ordained members serve their churches with mundane skills but you are an exception.
Shaman (suggested Lore 2-3). Lore taught by individuals in a tribal setting - less formal than the institutions of the churches and the Shek-Pvar but greater flexibility.
Sindarin. (suggested Lore 2+) The elves have made their own arrangements with the otherworldly forces, and do not abide by the conventions of the human institutions. (note - I don't intend to allow nonhuman PCs)

Well that's how far I've gotten.  Feedback is more than welcome - it's eagerly sought!

Randulf wrote: Well that's how far I've gotten.  Feedback is more than welcome - it's eagerly sought!

Hi there,

Most of your Lore descriptors are Covers. I suggest really focusing on what a sorcerer is - that is, someone who bargains for power with a demon, not just someone who serves a god or whatever - and coming up with very narrow, very personal Lore descriptors that have nothing to do with any particular social role.

Best, Ron

Good suggestion, and whenever I ponder it I just come back to the Lore Descriptors in the books.  Dropping the social roles, my list becomes Naif, Apprentice, Coven Member, Adept, and Inhuman.  Maybe I can tweak the terms to match the setting, and maybe I can add Mad since it's so nice for the Sorcerer flavor.

Any suggestions on my Humanity questions above?

Lore Descriptors: perhaps you can keep the differentiation between elves, clerics and mages? I find those pretty appropriate lore descriptors for a fantasy game. But being any more detailed I find unnecessary. Elves: no reason to disallow as a player option, they seem like Melniboneans or similar.

Humanity: if you cannot formulate two or three examples of both humanity gain and loss checks each (ones that don't concern sorcery), then you probably don't have a concrete enough Humanity definition. Whether others at the forums can formulate such examples is kind of besides the point, because you're the one who has to play the game. So work on the humanity definition from the practical side until you feel that it's going to be relevant for events in play.

Hello,

Your Humanity description shows its ties to a long-standing role-playing concern - who controls my character, me or the GM? That concern is at the heart of many Sanity and Humanity mechanics in other games.

In Sorcerer, this concern might play a role in Humanity when it drops to 0, as one of or part of the options listed in The Sorcerer's Soul. However, it's not very useful as a modulator or metric for invoking Humanity loss and gain during regular play.

Eero's advice is sound in its way, but I don't think he phrased it in the most useful way for you. I suggest instead thinking about the moral flaw in a "sorcerer gone bad," in the kind of game you'd like to play. Not his fate - drawn down to the demon-pits, babbling insanely in an alley, or whatever - but what is wrong with him, as a person.

Try to articulate that, fairly generally. Is it that he treats other people as mere things? Is it that he values one isolated aspect of people (e.g. family ties) drastically higher than anything else? Is it that he really will "do anything" for love?

That will help you arrive at a good term for Humanity. Remember, it can be general, and in fact should be, with lots of possible applications.

Then take it to your players. If you make up characters all together, and state that definition of Humanity once, and simply, then their character will show you alllllll about the nuances of the concept, without you setting them in stone before that point.

Best, Ron

Eero wrote: Lore Descriptors: perhaps you can keep the differentiation between elves, clerics and mages? I find those pretty appropriate lore descriptors for a fantasy game. But being any more detailed I find unnecessary. Elves: no reason to disallow as a player option, they seem like Melniboneans or similar.

Ron wrote: Your Humanity description shows its ties to a long-standing role-playing concern - who controls my character, me or the GM? That concern is at the heart of many Sanity and Humanity mechanics in other games.

Ron wrote: Eero's advice is sound in its way, but I don't think he phrased it in the most useful way for you. I suggest instead thinking about the moral flaw in a "sorcerer gone bad," in the kind of game you'd like to play. Not his fate - drawn down to the demon-pits, babbling insanely in an alley, or whatever - but what is wrong with him, as a person.

Ron wrote: Then take it to your players. If you make up characters all together, and state that definition of Humanity once, and simply, then their character will show you alllllll about the nuances of the concept, without you setting them in stone before that point.

a sorcerer gone bad would lose his spiritual bond with other people, manifesting as a loss of empathy ending in sociopathic behavior (i.e. what you said about "treats other people as mere things").